Complete Recovery from SP-Heixi Therapy (1)

[Jacky1980]

HI,Phoenix,
You are a very clever man, but actually these 2 examples are flawless. Mr.Heixi once told me these 2 examples during his therapy, at that time, I raised the same question as you.You are right that unchangeable is the key word.It was easy for me to see that lost leg and summer times is unchangeable, but i had difficulty in telling myself from the bottom of my heart that my shyness, my nervousness and so on is also unchangeable. However, Mr.Heixi told me:"if you want to realize it yourself unless you spend 20 years even your whole life due to your personality. As a experienced suffer myself, i can tell you that your symptom is the same as those body defect like lost legs, they are also unchangeable and unmemorable, you cannot realize it now, but you should know it,it takes time for you to really understand it." Now I convey his words to you, you are like former me. Now you should know that it is unchangeable, but between "knowing" and "being convinced" there is a long process,knowing is the first step. Like that you are in a labyrinth, a labyrinth without any exit, but you don't believe, you try to find an exit, you try for 20 years and still cannot find an exit, at last, you give up, you are prepared to live in this labyrinth for the rest of your life. but if a guy who had already tried for 20 years told you that there was no exit, you believed it or not? you might be deeply convinced or might be still doubtful because of your perfectionism. but anyway, you wouldn't be as stubborn as before, maybe you would try for 1 year and give up. so, here, I cannot deeply convince you that they are unchangeable, I can just tell you they are unchangeable, you should know that some oriental wisdom cannot be expressed by language. by the way, during the therapy, I have visited Mr.Heixi hundreds of times, he has apply many other therapies including east one and west one to lead me from "knowing" to "being convinced”, so you can see that without a therapist, even if you understand the theory, it is difficult for you to recover, that's why I suggest everybody here to try to find a therapist in their local place rather than try to find a way out himself or herself, there is a proverb in China:" doer is confused while seeer is clear." it indicate that sometimes counsel from others who are not involved in your situation is a must. Next time, I will post more articles about practice of Heixi Therapy because understanding such fact seems not enough.

And sorry for my poor English, after all I am not a native speaker of it. what do you mean by"unremovable" and "unchangeable" in you thread, because to me they are the same. "remove" just mean" change all"or"complete change", it seems to me that you mean you can change it a little, but cannot change it all or remove it,right? but actually, you cannot change it. Could you show me in your example of shyness that what things you will do to change your shyness?

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Pheonix wrote......

Hi Missmuffet,

Right, I believe so. I'm not quite sure if its even possible to accept ourselves to the point of 'normal' when we are born sensitive and 'not normal'. The theory is there, but in order to accept that far in we need to change who are as a person in essense I believe. I think you are right. Rationally we can actually do alot to be more reasonable to accept the top layers that fuel so much anxiety. Deep down emotionally when we are left with the core of who we are - it becomes virtually impossible? Some of us are born more reactive to say the least and raised to high expectations. I would have to let go of everything I am and everything I was raised to believe in order to break down that core and accept everything that causes all the anxiety.

The thing with that is, I cant even logically tell myself that if I let go and accept myself, I would be better off. My mind knows I would no longer care about what others think, so that woudl mean I would make more mistakes, I would be disliked by many people and so on and so on. On the surface, that might seem okay. But the anxiety makes me reactive and careful so its less likely that people will hate me or think ill of me. Deep down inside me when it matters, I want so bad to not be hated..to want to been seen in a good light, that I will continue to fuel anxiety unless I change who I am and can honestly tell myself that I no longer care what people think. That I wont feel pain when someone dislikes me for something I said or did.

I do like mindfulness as well. As I said in the other post though, I think it is a symptom blocker in that it will help minimize the symptoms but not do a lot to stop what was causing the symptoms in the first place. Not too different from medication in a way. I like it though because there are so many things that we just cant change about ourselves completely. Mindfulness is a great technique to help lower the pain and anxiety of pretty much everythign if done right. Its simple and easy for anyone too.

I think, though, that there is still so much we can do to realistically pull our anxiety down from the front end. Such as acceptance, expectation lowering and proper ways to deal with emotions and anxiety. Things will still filter through and mindfulness could mop up and tone everything down. If anyone used all those kind of techniques (including mindfulness), they could significantly lower their anxiety.

LittleMissMuffet says....
Hi Pheonix,

I have a lot of unanswered questions about Mindfulness, anxiety and how our minds work. -I wish that I could understand such things now. But I appreciate your thoughts about mindfulness toning things down; just as I appreciate whatever insights into just how it works.

Right now I am reading about the Buddhist idea of staying present and aware as being what gives freedom from sufferring and enlightenment. It is said that the Buddhist way does not cling to any concepts or theories in order to achieve freedom; yet there is also the instruction to investigate and analyse problems. ....so, I am still exploring what is truly meant by having awareness (of the present moment) and this is important for me to understand. It- awareness (of the moment)- is Mindfulness -and before I came across Mindfulness, I tried to help my self by something similar to CBT, and then CBT it self -and this did not work. So now I am trying to understand the difference between what has worked and what has not worked for me.

....OK, back to what you were saying:- I think you are basically stating again that acceptance of who you are as you are is emotionally difficult to do. Also, when we try to do this through our mind and our thinking, that again this often doesn't work.

The way that I understand such ideas is that our high sensitivity (whatever its cause or basis is exactly) to people and to situations convinces us that we are sufferring and that we are inadequate and must quickly change ourselves to adapt better to our environment.
And this is why it is hard for us to just accept ourselves as we are, with all our inadequacies and pain -our emotional side tells us this, and our mind does also.

However, we also are intelligent enough to realise that this is what perpetuates and -if we went all the way down to the core of our thinking- this in fact creates our unhappiness, our anxiety disorder. And this is that 'vicious circle' that our psychologists or psychiatrists tells us we are in: that it is our 'fear of fear' that creates are disordered anxiety. So, our perception of ourselves and judgements about our anxiety are what make who we are manifest negatively in the world. -yet, even this is a wrong way to look at things!- the point is that we wish to change but our desparation to change means we are stuck reliving the same experience.
Anyhow, I'm sure you have realised such ideas.

The thing is that I believe that we can focus our attention upon accepting our fear and our reactive emotions. That through this, we tame them -the vicious circle of reactive thoughts and feelings begins to lose its momentum and we integrate our feelings better. We still experience our highly sensitive reactions to whatever we are fearful or sensitive towards, and we still experience that counter-reaction to stop or get rid of our initial reaction of high sensitivity. BUt we start to tame this friction and emotional conflict. ....this is what I think Mindfulness does and I think that you have the same understanding.

IT is almost like doing the opposite -instead of being hypervigilant about not making mistakes, instead of being watchful and fearful of experiencing an anxiety attack- we do the opposite: we look for our mistakes with an understanding that this is the key to making them diminish.

-We know that everything else we have done by way of trying to ease our pain- our social anxiety and in order for ourselves to adapt more effectively to our social environment - this has not worked. There was always still this part deep down that did not and could not believe -a part of ourselves that simply would not do what we wanted or asked it to do. So, the more we try to change or control this untameable part of ourselves, the more anxiety we experience -and we feel inadequate on top of our distress. ....But I see Mindfulness as bringing all parts of ourselves together and allowing all of us acceptance -then we can tame ourselves and adapt easily to whatever situation confronts us.

So I think that part of this has to do with seeing the pattern -or maybe it is some deeper emotional understanding, I am not sure- but seeing that trying to change ourselves causes more pain; whilst accepting parts of ourselves that refuse to change, these so-called 'inferior' parts; accepting all our mistakes as opposed to trying to control against them, I think is what works. ...this means that we are starting to integrate all of our feelings together, and only if we own all of ourselves can we change any aspect of who we are. And I think that this is what Mindfulness is allowing me to do. I don't understand just how it works exactly, but I know that it does this.

You have said some interesting things in your second paragraph.
I'd like to respond with an intelligent understanding about what you have said here -unfortunately the ideas are just out of grasp for me. ...I'll keep reading and see if somewhere down the track I can understand how are minds work: I have a fair amount of unanswered questions and questions that I haven't properly formed in my mind yet.
Well, I'll leave it there, then.

 

[phoenix1]

Hi Jacky,

Don’t get me wrong. I think the approach is extremely refreshing, and I’m glad you are offering it to people.

If possible maybe tell us how you would go about convincing us that the trait is unchangeable? Or maybe a couple of the techniques used?

You asked about how shyness could be changeable? If you go into a party and yell something out of the blue, for that moment or perhaps that night, you are no longer shy. If you learned to do that every time without much effort, you might be seen as crazy, but I doubt you would be considered shy by others or yourself anymore. In essence, ‘you grew back that leg’. We all know people who were once shy who are now very outgoing. They grew back their legs too. They changed the supposeably unchangeable. Its that possibility of change (even if its small) that drives us to hold on to these things so strongly.

The thing with the labyrinth is that the exit isn’t one of ‘final understanding’ that its unchangeable, but rather an understanding that…maybe its too difficult for someone to change and that its time to stop trying and let it go or that its not worth changing to begin with.

Almost all traits and problems we see in ourselves are in part changeable to some minor degree and that’s what we hold on to so strongly. We know that its changeable too, that’s why we refuse to accept in light of so much pain and anxiety. The reality is that there is a lot we can do to change these things and that’s why we keep fighting.

Is the goal to separate exactly what is unchangeable and what is changeable? Like there are certain aspects of shyness that is truly unchangeable that I could probably accept it by itself, but I tend to lump it together with parts of shyness that is changeable and as a whole I continue to try to change it all?

Or is the goal to lower your threshold so you accept something? There comes a point where you keep trying to change something and it becomes virtually unchangeable because its so difficult. There is still a possibility of real change, but its past the point that is reasonable and you should view it as unchangeable now? For example, if I could lower my expectation of myself, I would more likely accept more things (those that are still changeable but extremely difficult to change) and stop trying so hard to fight such a difficult fight.

 

[phoenix1]

Hi missmuffet,

You are modest, but you have amazing knowledge and understanding of how our brains work.

No matter which way I look at mindfulness, I always seem to come to the conclusion that it’s a way to purposely override our reactive and adaptive behaviors (which causes the anxiety).

I agree that it can help bring our parts together and allow us greater acceptance. In doing so, it does help anxiety.

The big question is, though, is does it help us adapt better?

I think there are some people are born ‘warriors’ who go head strong into the world and don’t question themselves or the world around them. They are less sensitive and reactive. Then there are those that are born the ‘careful ones’, the ones that are sensitive, more reactive and more prone to anxiety in order to quickly adapt to the world around us. As a species, we need both types of people. One to go headstrong into the world and get what we want, and then another to check the first one and to be more careful and adaptive and be able to quickly react to the world around us.

I think many of us who have intense anxiety were born to be careful and quickly adapt. Our anxiety means that we are trying desperately to adapt to things that are extremely difficult or impossible. Take away the anxiety and we are less adaptive (in theory and viewed by our own brains)

For example, maybe we started saying ‘greetings and salutations’ when we met someone new and we watched their reaction and saw how they looked at us strange and then we started to question our behavior and figure out what was wrong and then we figured out we were stupid to say ‘greetings and salutations’. We beat ourselves up a bit so we know not to do that next time. Then the next time we get a little anxiety and just say ‘hi’ and we get a proper response. We’ve adapted with some anxiety. I don’t know about you or anyone else, but I’m highly reactive to everyday little things. I’m stubborn and don’t want to change sometimes, but I know exactly what I’m saying is wrong by reactions and looks and I know what I would need to adapt. I know there are other people say or do whatever they want because they don’t have that reactive behavior.

But the problem with reactive behavior is that we try to change things that are so incredibly difficult or virtually impossible as well. We get stuck in anxiety escalations of the fear of fear and things like that.

I think we are so reactive though that we are not effectively adapting past a certain point. Kind of like the bell curve. We react to every little thing and unchangeable things that we get stuck in constant anxiety and confusion which makes us less likely to adapt. Our brains don’t know that that. We just think that we need to be more anxious in order to change that too.

Mindfulness does help in putting things in perspective. I use it too myself and it helps. It does make acceptance easier. It does take away lot of anxiety. In a way it probably does help you adapt if you have so much anxiety that you just don’t know what to focus on or if the anxiety is focused on something that is unchangeable like much of SA is.

We can take of a huge chuck of the reactive behavior (through mindfulness) and lower our anxiety and still be able to be highly adaptive (ultimate goal perhaps?) – perhaps be simply more focused on what is effective to change and adapt to those instead of being overwhelmed with all the other crazy anxieties.

 

[random]

Re: the critical factor in the recovery of Social Phobia

If you want to talk to me, my msn is [email protected],hope my advice can be helpful

I am always a little curious when someone starts a thread, says that they know the one and only answer to SA, and begins to direct people to a private channel of communication. I wonder why people with 'the cure' for all of us only want to talk to us one at a time in private.

...I really hope my advice can be helpful. I also don't mind if you want to argue with me through MSN.

People who claim to have the one, only cure for everyone in the world especially want us to disagree with them in private. You'd think they'd like to use a page like this so they wouldn't have to have the exact same argument over and over, especially if it requires translation from a foreign language. And yet....

....I am sure this article is very difficult to understand,especially for the readers from wester countries, but trust me it is a real cure. When I first read such articles, I also got confused, I thought " NO, it will not work on me." So, I turned to Mr. Heixi for help, during the process of therapy, I gradually know the meaning of this article. and I didn't completely understand this article until I fully recoved.

People who claim to know 'the cure' for all problems never seem to believe that anyone can disagree with anything they say - if you do it's because you don't understand. Sometimes they say words cannot capture the mystical importance of the 'cure' they offer. Also, I don't think I've ever read a thread promising a 'miracle' cure without the writer insisting we should trust him. Without any proof of success, any objective studies, any knowledge of the person - we're always told "trust me"! In this case - he says it worked for him and his boss so you should not believe anything else will help you except - what he tells you.

....The essence of Heixi Therapy really lies in my first post, ... so I am trying to make myself understood as much as possible to make you realize the revolutionary value of this therapy, I hope we can communicate more.

When asked to elaborate - to give examples and describe what they are proposing will cure you - they really never answer (here he declines to provide more detail and points to his first post) but they continue to tell you they want to help you understand this miracle and will 'communicate more' but this communication never provide useful detail - just more encouragement to 'trust me' and 'contact me'.

....The reason I chose him is because his counseling mode is interesting me “Once paid, there is no time limitation. You can call him any time for any questions and problems you have encountered related to your suffering”, So I thought: “ well, even if I cannot recover, but it is good to call someone anytime and bomb him with all the weird and pessimistic problems which I dare not disclose to my few common friends even my parents.

They often seem to do this - model for us the way we should think and reason so that we choose to accept their offer and their terms.

...our website is undergoing a big operation now to kill that damn Trojan, it will be solved ASAP."

Note that someone on SPW tried to access the website describing this miracle cure and reported that the site was infected with a virus. I don't know how we'd know if it's gone or if it will stay gone.

Hi,marykate
from the bottom of my heart, I never show any disrespect to any therapy or therapist, ...but in terms of the effect of therapy itself, I must tell the truth, I cannot allow myself to lie:western therapy cannot fully cure SA ... I am just here to state the truth. ...I know that my article is a little bit difficult for the western sufferers to understand, I really want to help,so I sincerely suggest you chat with me through MSN personally. I have chatted with many friends in this forum and give them some guide, they all have felt better and understand more and clearer.

MaryKate and I seem to agree. It's unethical to claim that only you have the answer and all other methods will not help people. In reply to MaryKate, he includes all the methods I have observed with other 'miracle cure' posts. (insists he's sincere and truthful, urges she contact him personally, claims that he has already helped everyone who contacted him, suggests she just doesn't understand) When MaryKate refutes him again he says he will start a new thread to 'prove' himself...and yes, those other miracle cure posters have done that too.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Pheonix,

I enjoy hearing theories and views like yours, as they are helpful to my understanding.

One thing I wanted to say was that I previously had another big crisis in my life (in fact, because this is the second time that my life has come to a considerable halt, I've had self-esteem issues regarding why I seem to locate major problems so easily) ....but one good thing about this time was that I learnt a handful of really helpful understandings. And I try to refer to this time in my life and what I learnt when I need extra guidance now.

So, this is one of my understandings.... I think that because who we are is always relative to who others around us are, and each social situation is different, that the only way for us to figure-out what is and is not changeable about ourselves -ie: how much we can and should compromise our personality for others, or simply even just who we are in this world ....the way I view this is that such questions are answered when we hold the perspective that makes everything relative.

...Now, I don't know a lot (despite your flatterring compliment) but what I mean by this is that there is the need to no-longer care about what 'shows up on the surface'. This means that we are not threatened any longer by our 'shadow' (are you familiar with this term?). Also, the question 'Who am I?' is not really the question we are to ask ourselves; rather it is a question of self-definition (and how to do such a thing is what we should focus on). This means that we can confidently say goodbye to the need to have any aspect of who we are 'show-up' on the outside. It also means that unless we accept the whole of ourself unconditionally and without any fear as to whether who we really are will show up 'unfavorably' on the outside -all of ourself has to be accepted before we can change.

One strange understanding that I had when I overcame my previous problems was to accept the whole of my self and others also. And you could say in this sense that I accepted the ugliest side of my self as being 'unchangeable' -yet, in this very moment of accepting so throughly it was now immediately possible for me to adapt very easily to almost anyone.

Through accepting everything as it was and not avoiding any of it I was all of a sudden made able to change to a degree of flexibility that few people could manage. ...this is true about me: that I went from one of the weakest to one of the strongest regarding this issue I was troubled about.

So, I believe that through unconditional and total acceptance of ourself that we finally are able to control who it is we are in the world. And a giving up of concern for how things appear and how who we are manifests in the outside world -and also the understanding that placing value on such things is futile and is a losing battle for every single person ...for example we would transfer our concern from "fearing our fear" - or "fearing our high sensitivity" (I prefer this description of SA) to the courage to accept our sensitivity or fear. We would measure and base our values on this.

 

[emmdee]

I don't know? I'm too young to know this stuff for myself, but i say whatever works for you is what works. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion based on experiences, and our experiences is what makes us unique, which is why different therapies work for everyone.
If it worked out for her, why not allow her to tell you about it?
You have the right to choose to do it or not.

 

[Jacky1980]

hi,random
Thank you for your criticism. I guess you think I am hiding something, like some pracical techniques, then I try to coax people into talking with me in MSN and persuade them to pay me the money for the miracle cure,right? But it is common sense that if a therapist want to give counsel to a sufferer, he'd better know his or her personal details and situation. I think I don't need to explain much about that. So far I am not a therapist, I am just a man who has survived, so it is more necessary for me to know everyone's personal situation in order to give them advice on the basis of Heixi therapy. Here I just got authorization from one in SPW who is talking to me through MSN recently, now I can post our chat record here for everyone's reference, for this girl, I never mention Heixi Therapy to her, just try my best to help her:

2007-4-14 13:03:03 Jacky | megan | ... Hi,Megan, are you there?
2007-4-16 9:54:56 Jacky | megan | ... Hi,Megan,good evening
2007-4-16 9:55:03 | megan | ... Jacky Heeey.
2007-4-16 9:55:53 Jacky | megan | ... to be frank, from you photo, I cannot imagine you are so pessimistic like what you said in you post
2007-4-16 9:56:29 | megan | ... Jacky What do you mean?
2007-4-16 9:58:51 Jacky | megan | ... I mean you are such a lovely and beautiful girl, which is not consistent with your pessimistic mind
2007-4-16 9:59:06 Jacky | megan | ... I think i would be shy before you
2007-4-16 9:59:19 | megan | ... Jacky Haha well i go back and forth. I usually post on SPW when i'm in a depressed, pessimistic mood.
2007-4-16 10:00:07 Jacky | megan | ... are you always like that? as severe as what you state in your post?
2007-4-16 10:00:31 | megan | ... Jacky -shrugs- I guess?
2007-4-16 10:02:35 Jacky | megan | ... what do you mean by shrug here? I am sorry I am not an native Eng speaker
2007-4-16 10:02:56 | megan | ... Jacky Haha i am shrugging, or i don't really know.
2007-4-16 10:04:48 Jacky | megan | ... Do you feel heart-beat, or facial blushing or sth like that with people around you or when you talk to them
2007-4-16 10:05:05 | megan | ... Jacky Depends on who i am talking to.
2007-4-16 10:05:22 Jacky | megan | ... what about your friends?
2007-4-16 10:05:56 | megan | ... Jacky No. I am comfortable enough around most of them.
2007-4-16 10:06:57 Jacky | megan | ... then who will make you uncomfortable when you talk to them?
2007-4-16 10:07:37 | megan | ... Jacky Guys, people i don't know very well, some people in high authority.
2007-4-16 10:09:17 Jacky | megan | ... I think normal people will also be like you in such situation
2007-4-16 10:10:27 | megan | ... Jacky I don't. I avoid social situations because of it, my heart beats faster than the speed of light, and i can barely talk.
2007-4-16 10:12:14 Jacky | megan | ... How old are you now? is there any guys who try to date you?
2007-4-16 10:12:22 | megan | ... Jacky Fifteen and o.
2007-4-16 10:12:23 | megan | ... Jacky *no.
2007-4-16 10:13:04 Jacky | megan | ... you only fifteen:-O, high school student?
2007-4-16 10:13:11 | megan | ... Jacky Yep.
2007-4-16 10:13:42 Jacky | megan | ... the youngest I have teen talking to in SPW
2007-4-16 10:13:53 | megan | ... Jacky Haha.
2007-4-16 10:14:15 Jacky | megan | ... when did you realize you have such a problem?
2007-4-16 10:14:59 | megan | ... Jacky I somehow came across a page describing it on google, and i was like... "Great, that's me."
2007-4-16 10:15:24 | megan | ... Jacky Like about a few months ago.
2007-4-16 10:16:28 Jacky | megan | ... girl, you cannot entitle you so casually like that
2007-4-16 10:16:40 Jacky | megan | ... Have you even seen a therapist about that?
2007-4-16 10:17:24 | megan | ... Jacky No.
2007-4-16 10:18:38 Jacky | megan | ... what about your family? a nice one? how do you feel about them?
2007-4-16 10:18:51 | megan | ... Jacky They're okay, not the best, not the worst.
2007-4-16 10:19:41 Jacky | megan | ... do you think your friends are caring and easy-going? about how many friends do you think you have?
2007-4-16 10:20:28 | megan | ... Jacky No, my friend's don't care, i've never had a friend who thought i truly mattered. And i don't know, i don't keep count, not a lot though.
2007-4-16 10:21:47 Jacky | megan | ... have you ever thought you care about them much more than they do to you?
2007-4-16 10:21:59 | megan | ... Jacky Only a million times.
2007-4-16 10:23:14 Jacky | megan | ... You love to make friends with them, you show them your care,but they don't return when you need, the love you want, is that right?
2007-4-16 10:23:25 | megan | ... Jacky Yep.
2007-4-16 10:24:37 Jacky | megan | ... do you hate that? what will you do when you suffer from that? stay away from them,inhibit your desire of communication?
2007-4-16 10:24:55 | megan | ... Jacky Mhm.
2007-4-16 10:25:02 | megan | ... Jacky ( that's a yes )
2007-4-16 10:26:57 Jacky | megan | ... let me guess, like a snail hiding deep in its shell, dare not go out to avoid further hurt,right?
2007-4-16 10:27:27 | megan | ... Jacky If that's how you want to put it.
2007-4-16 10:30:31 Jacky | megan | ... so you are still comfortable with your friends when you talk to them or stay with them?
2007-4-16 10:31:21 | megan | ... Jacky Yeah. Mainly because they are boring, no offense, and don't go to too many places, so i don't have to worry.
2007-4-16 10:34:51 Jacky | megan | ... I know from your post that all of your friends are boring and ugly, is that so?
2007-4-16 10:35:16 | megan | ... Jacky Oh yeah, that's right, i forgot about that post haha sorry.
2007-4-16 10:39:27 Jacky | megan | ... you like making friends with them or you are forced by sth to do that?
2007-4-16 10:40:25 | megan | ... Jacky They're alright, i really don't mind being with them, it's just that we're not that close.
2007-4-16 10:40:59 Jacky | megan | ... do you have common interest or topic?
2007-4-16 10:41:39 | megan | ... Jacky Yeah.
2007-4-16 10:41:49 Jacky | megan | ... your hobby?
2007-4-16 10:42:57 | megan | ... Jacky Haha no, we just like a lot of the same TV shows and movies.
2007-4-16 10:43:44 Jacky | megan | ... you are more comfortable with them than those outgoing and talktive persons, aren't you?
2007-4-16 10:43:56 | megan | ... Jacky Well of course.
2007-4-16 10:44:34 Jacky | megan | ... so you are an introvert?
2007-4-16 10:44:42 | megan | ... Jacky Maybe?
2007-4-16 10:45:02 Jacky | megan | ... did you make a presentation?
2007-4-16 10:45:22 | megan | ... Jacky What?
2007-4-16 10:46:08 Jacky | megan | ... speech
2007-4-16 10:46:22 | megan | ... Jacky A speech about what?
2007-4-16 10:46:38 Jacky | megan | ... have you ever made a speech before the whole class, any experience of that?
2007-4-16 10:46:45 | megan | ... Jacky Yeah.
2007-4-16 10:47:16 Jacky | megan | ... successful?
2007-4-16 10:47:45 | megan | ... Jacky Well nobody laughed, if that's what you mean. It was just a normal thing everyone had to do,
2007-4-16 10:48:17 Jacky | megan | ... I mean your mood when you did it? you feel anxious before the whole class?
2007-4-16 10:48:54 | megan | ... Jacky Oh of course. But that's not because of SA, it's just the normal amount of anxiety. I'm more anxious when it comes to just openly talking with people.
2007-4-16 10:53:38 Jacky | megan | ... Yeah, you were just like the former me! what a coincidence! u know, so many SP sufferers find they have difficulty in speech, but I was not, I didn't felt nervous on the speech, but felt uncomfortable when talking to person in daily life, especially those charming and outgoing ones
2007-4-16 10:54:14 Jacky | megan | ... I used to like to make friends whth those who seldom talked
2007-4-16 10:54:39 | megan | ... Jacky Yeah, that's what i did but when you're in my high school..there's no one like that.
2007-4-16 10:54:52 | megan | ... Jacky Everyone fits in somehow.
2007-4-16 10:55:27 Jacky | megan | ... You find you don't fit in?
2007-4-16 10:55:45 | megan | ... Jacky Well...i do somewhat with the group of friends i am with, but again, we're not that close.
2007-4-16 10:56:35 Jacky | megan | ... do you feel depressed or lonely ofter?
2007-4-16 10:56:47 | megan | ... Jacky Well who wouldn't?
2007-4-16 10:57:31 Jacky | megan | ... I mean what is your predominating mood every day, happy or sad?
2007-4-16 10:58:18 | megan | ... Jacky At school i am okay, normally because of work distractions and my so called "friends" talking to me. At home, normally bored and depressed.
2007-4-16 10:58:46 Jacky | megan | ... what did you often do at your leisure time?
2007-4-16 10:58:55 Jacky | megan | ... surfing net
2007-4-16 10:58:55 | megan | ... Jacky Television or computer.
2007-4-16 10:59:06 | megan | ... Jacky Yep.
2007-4-16 10:59:46 | megan | ... Jacky Normally television though, because the show distracts my mind from depression.
2007-4-16 11:00:14 Jacky | megan | ... do you have OCD problems?
2007-4-16 11:01:52 | megan | ... Jacky Well i think a small bit, but lately i have been trying to stop it. It's weird though...if i do have it, it's normally like...everything has to be in its little spot, rather than obsessing over all the dust in my room and whether the carpet is dirty. So maybe not.
2007-4-16 11:12:27 Jacky | megan | ... My judgement is right, from my own experience,such person like you mush have OCD, but please do not try to stop it, otherwise it will be more severe, let it be when it is not too serious, OK? girl, or you will suffer, truse me
2007-4-16 11:13:14 | megan | ... Jacky Haha alrighty then.
2007-4-16 11:14:30 Jacky | megan | ... Ok, what kind of person you want to be?
2007-4-16 11:14:48 Jacky | megan | ... are you satisfied with the current self now?
2007-4-16 11:15:34 | megan | ... Jacky No, definately not, but i don't know really...i just know the career i want. Not the kind of personality i want. Haven't really thought about that.
2007-4-16 11:20:22 Jacky | megan | ... anyway, you are too young to think about that.u know, you are like the former me,but so far you are not severe enough, also like me at your age.do you think you bad mood or anxiety influence your daily life, like study and sleep?
2007-4-16 11:21:09 | megan | ... Jacky Not really, mainly because i avoid anything that makes me anxious. But if i am anxious then yeah, it does.
2007-4-16 11:24:47 Jacky | megan | ... Could you try not to avoid those social situation (but the prerequisite is that you like to join them, but you are too anxious to do)?
2007-4-16 11:25:42 | megan | ... Jacky Oh heeeelll no. Sure it might be fun, but just..no. I'm not ready for that.
2007-4-16 11:26:22 Jacky | megan | ... you think you will be ridiculed?
2007-4-16 11:27:10 | megan | ... Jacky Yeah, because i wouldn't talk. I have especially a problem with group situations.
2007-4-16 11:28:05 Jacky | megan | ... still want to make it clear, you feel you don't like group at all, or you like them, but you feel too anxious to join?
2007-4-16 11:28:44 Jacky | megan | ... do you like being loved and admired by a group of people
2007-4-16 11:29:39 | megan | ... Jacky It doesn't matter either way, i mean i would go somewhere in a group if it wasn't for SA...and ew, no. I hate being the center of attention in group situations.
2007-4-16 11:30:40 Jacky | megan | ... do you have strong desire to recover or you want to live this way on?
2007-4-16 11:30:55 | megan | ... Jacky Of course i want to recover!
2007-4-16 11:32:22 Jacky | megan | ... then why didn't you see a therapist? and you haven't asked me how to recover since we chatted?
2007-4-16 11:34:00 | megan | ... Jacky Oh haha well that was because i wasn't sure about whether you knew that kind of information. And i would see a therapist, but that would require telling my mother...and god, no. PLease don't make me do that haha. I don't even know why, i guess i just feel like she'll think of me as some lame thing...and then she'll tell everyone else and make them feel the same way about me.
2007-4-16 11:36:38 Jacky | megan | ... is Canadian thinkiong psychological counselling is some sort of weird thing?:-O
2007-4-16 11:37:20 | megan | ... Jacky Haha no, i just can't get the words out to tell her, i'm too anxious and too many things are running through my mind whenever i get the chance.
2007-4-16 11:38:13 Jacky | megan | ... OK,be brave and do that, after all, she is your mother.
2007-4-16 11:39:28 | megan | ... Jacky Yeah, i knew that from the start, but that's kind of impossible when the worsts just will NOT come out of my mouth haha, it's almost impossible.
2007-4-16 11:39:42 | megan | ... Jacky *words
2007-4-16 11:42:06 Jacky | megan | ... Girl,So far, I don't think you really need my help, I surely know how to solve your problem,but you are so young, and your problem is not severe enough to me, it may be too early to guide you now, just live your life and see how it will develop,if you need my help, any time,ok?
2007-4-16 11:42:50 | megan | ... Jacky Haha alright then, thanks.
2007-4-16 11:43:13 Jacky | megan | ... what is your time there?
2007-4-16 11:43:19 | megan | ... Jacky 11:41pm.
2007-4-16 11:43:56 Jacky | megan | ... here is 11:41 AM, so I need to go for lunch now, and you need to go to you bed
2007-4-16 11:44:12 | megan | ... Jacky Haha yepyep, okay, goodnight and thanks again.
2007-4-16 11:44:34 Jacky | megan | ... good night! have a sweet dream.bye
4-21 11:25:38 | megan | ... Jacky Urggh you want to know what happened to today that made so freaaaaking pissed off/depressed?!
2007-4-21 11:25:59 Jacky | megan | ... of course,tell me ,girl
2007-4-21 11:29:04 | megan | ... Jacky I want to be in Communications, right...well today we filmed the talent show for video club, and after we packed up we talked in the teacher's room for a while...well one of the other teachers came in and the person that is in charge of the video club said like right in front of me.. "Everyone did excellent today, except for Megan. Trevor (a member of the video club), you're going to have to take her under your wing and teach her SOMETHING." I don't know if he was joking, but it wasn't funny in my opinion.. this is what i want to do with my life. This is the only thing i believe i could have real talent doing, and the only thing that i am remotely interested in doing.
2007-4-21 11:29:27 | megan | ... Jacky So i basically found out i don't have a talent. Whoopee.
2007-4-21 11:31:18 Jacky | megan | ... so the teacher's judgement makes you deny yourself?
2007-4-21 11:32:34 | megan | ... Jacky Well, yeah. I mean i'm just learning this stuff and with SA and everything...
2007-4-21 11:33:34 Jacky | megan | ... Have you even met such criticism before?
2007-4-21 11:33:50 | megan | ... Jacky What do you mean?
2007-4-21 11:34:25 Jacky | megan | ... it is the first time you met such "severe" criticism?
2007-4-21 11:35:23 | megan | ... Jacky No.
2007-4-21 11:35:35 | megan | ... Jacky I'm always being criticised for something./
2007-4-21 11:35:55 | megan | ... Jacky Whether it is something like that, how i act, what i do, etc etc.
2007-4-21 11:37:05 Jacky | megan | ... when you are critisized, what do you think, you think " yes, I am as stupid as they think" or "No, I am better than they think, I need to prove"?
2007-4-21 11:37:34 | megan | ... Jacky Sometimes positive, but mostly the negative.
2007-4-21 11:41:45 Jacky | megan | ... girl, let me tell you some tips,when I was criticized before, about your age, I was also depressed, i even hated those who did it to me,so I tried to deny, no, I am not stupid, but the more I denied, the more stupid I behaved,so I gave up, OK, maybe I am really a stupid guy, i never try to repel those negative thoughts, I made a room in my heart for them, let them be there, after some time
2007-4-21 11:43:38 Jacky | megan | ... they are gone complete, i didn't do stupid things naturally,you understand now?
2007-4-21 11:44:04 | megan | ... Jacky No. If you make room for them then they will always be there.
2007-4-21 11:48:22 Jacky | megan | ... It needs time, please do it rather than analyze it, when you feel depressed or anxious, make a room for them, never try to get rid of them, those moods are just like fire, it will go out naturally, just don't repel them from the bottom of your heart, you used to reply them always, which makes them uncontrollable, but you can do whatever you feel interested in, just tell your self:
2007-4-21 11:48:47 Jacky | megan | ... OK, I am stupid, stupid as stupid does, let me try one more time
2007-4-21 11:49:01 Jacky | megan | ... Have you seen "forrest gump"
2007-4-21 11:49:14 | megan | ... Jacky Never.
2007-4-21 11:52:08 Jacky | megan | ... girl, I used to repel it like you did, the more you did to get rid of those negative mood, the more severe it would be, I believe you have already tasted the result,right? so turn back, never try to repel them, try to eliminate them, you will find that if you don't fight them, they will not fight you.
2007-4-21 11:53:11 Jacky | megan | ... do you have the lessen of physics
2007-4-21 11:53:20 Jacky | megan | ... lesson
2007-4-21 11:53:30 | megan | ... Jacky We have not covered physics yet in science...
2007-4-21 11:55:45 Jacky | megan | ... then do you understand what I am saying? fighting those negative moods will make you tense, leaving them as they are will make you relax, if you relax long enough, those nagative moods will lose their power and control over you
2007-4-21 11:56:17 Jacky | megan | ... the keyword is time
2007-4-21 11:56:54 | megan | ... Jacky But i never repelled it..i just let it sink into me, and then i started crying. And then i walked home, still with my mind on the same topic, and fell asleep for like hours i was so depressed.
2007-4-21 12:01:07 Jacky | megan | ... Ok, you did it right.let it sink, just let your mind on the same topic, just sleep when you are depressed, try to be "soft" in very part of your heart,then depression will go away, then tell me what want me to do now? you want me teach not to feel depressed in such condition?
2007-4-21 12:01:52 | megan | ... Jacky -shrugs- I don't even know. I just wanted to talk to someone because i hate keeping everything bottled up inside.
2007-4-21 12:01:54 Jacky | megan | ... Oh, so many tying mistake:-O
2007-4-21 12:03:54 Jacky | megan | ... I think I would be the most suitable guy for such role,girl,sometimes I doubt whether you really got SA, you are just a little bit sentimental, beautiful girls are often like that
2007-4-21 12:04:57 | megan | ... Jacky Okay...well you don't know how i get, and you don't know my life, so you can't judge that. =]
2007-4-21 12:09:12 Jacky | megan | ... OK, when I know more, I can help you more,the key sentence i gave you is that: try to be soft rather than hard, kids in your age would meet so many difficulties, most of them would get lost, life is so long, compared with what you will meet in the future, what you meet now is only a small test,if you have time, tell me more about you, I used to be ridiculed evey bullied, but now they don't
2007-4-21 12:09:32 Jacky | megan | ... seem to matter any more
2007-4-21 12:10:26 | megan | ... Jacky Yeaaah well, i'm not ridiculed that much anymore, thank god..many people just think i'm 'cold' now.
2007-4-21 12:11:00 Jacky | megan | ... what does cold mean? give me some example?
2007-4-21 12:11:16 Jacky | megan | ... growing away from others?
2007-4-21 12:13:21 | megan | ... Jacky Yeah, distant, means.
2007-4-21 12:13:25 | megan | ... Jacky (mean
2007-4-21 12:14:46 Jacky | megan | ... why? do you want to come closer to them from the bottom of your heart? or you are afraid of getting hurt?
2007-4-21 12:14:52 Jacky | megan | ... if you do so
2007-4-21 12:15:44 | megan | ... Jacky Well, not really. I mean, all they've done is bully and ridicule me, and i want a friend who is going to care, obviously not them.
2007-4-21 12:17:54 Jacky | megan | ... why did they do so? because of your bad performance?
2007-4-21 12:20:25 | megan | ... Jacky I don't know really, they've done it since elementary school.
2007-4-21 12:20:35 | megan | ... Jacky What do you mean 'bad performance'?
2007-4-21 12:22:22 Jacky | megan | ... I mean you did stupid things in their eyes? but anyway, that doesn't matter? we make friends on the basis of common interests, do you have common interests with them?
2007-4-21 12:22:45 | megan | ... Jacky Not really.
2007-4-21 12:30:15 Jacky | megan | ... so there is no point of making friends with them, but anyway, you feel depressed now, I suggest you should not try to understand the reason of it, it is meanningless, human mind is complex, don't bother to analyze it, be soft, following your own feeling, if you try to talk to them, then talk,if you are not willing to, just leave them, give yourself complete freedom, be soft
2007-4-21 12:30:55 | megan | ... Jacky That's what i'm doing. =]
2007-4-21 12:38:30 Jacky | megan | ... OK, then what we can do is to wait. one more suggestion is that depression is unavoidable in life of your age,let it be there and don't try to get rid of it, be soft, a soft heart can stand any ridicule, say to yourself:" OK, ricicule me as much as you can, see whether I will dir for this",imagine what the sea is like? it is lower than anything, but it can contain anything and stand any attack
2007-4-21 12:38:55 Jacky | megan | ... die for this*
2007-4-21 12:39:22 | megan | ... Jacky Mm..the sea.. =]
2007-4-21 12:39:30 | megan | ... Jacky Uid love to be a dolphin.
2007-4-21 12:39:33 | megan | ... Jacky *I'D
2007-4-21 12:41:43 Jacky | megan | ... Yeah,but dolphin will die when it meets shark, but the seam however severe the storm is, however hard you throws rocks at it, it will still be there without any hurt,man should be like a sea, soft as it
2007-4-21 12:42:35 Jacky | megan | ... It seems that i cannot avoid typing mistake today:-O
2007-4-21 12:43:08 | megan | ... Jacky Haha me neither actually, i've corrected m yself 87284789 times.
2007-4-21 12:43:46 | megan | ... Jacky And my friend got drunk when i signed on and i talked to her, and she was like "Hry" ...literally trying to talk, but couldn't.
2007-4-21 12:44:17 Jacky | megan | ... Ok,all in all, imagine what the sea is like, can you defeat the sea? NO, why? because it is so soft.
2007-4-21 12:45:01 | megan | ... Jacky =]
2007-4-21 12:45:59 Jacky | megan | ... OK, now i have to go for my lunch, and you need to embrace your quilt now
2007-4-21 12:46:16 | megan | ... Jacky Yeaaah... -sighs- Night.

when I got authorization from other friends on my MSN, I will continue to post. So far I am not a therapist, incomparable with Mr.Heixi.but I try my best to apply Heixi Therapy to help them. But for those severe sufferer or someone who has the eagerness to recover as quickly as possible, or sometimes I would judge on the basis of my own experience.for those people, I believe I cannot change their long-year inveterate "bad habbits" just through MSN talking and short replies,I will suggest them to join in Heixi Therapy,but it is only suggestion, I never try to persuade them or coax them into doing so, when I got authorization from another guy who I suggest to join in Heixi Therapy, I will post our chat record. Sometimes you have to seek a professional therapist because you low-self-esteem personality cannot change in one night, just like that you are an unexperienced freshmen, I can tell you the destination and tell you how to get to your destination, then I let you sail to the destination yourself, on your way, you will meet tides,reef,whirlpool, which may make to come back to your starting point, or make you go nowhere, if i call a experienced sailor to accompany you, from time to time correct your sailing route,afrom time to time help you to avoid reef, whirlpool and tides to make you reach your target safely and anchor you there, then you will never fall back. I used to be doubtful of Heixi Therapy, it is the truth, I don't want to lie, but after I completely recovered, I believed it. I am just here to tell the truth.

As for our website, the trojan is a unavoidable incident,I am sorry and our technique personnel is trying to solve it, so I do not suggest anyone to visit it now, the trojan is from the advert in our own forum, we are trying to solve it, about 3 weeks later, the whole website will take a new look.


To Phoenix1,
Hi, Phoenix, I don't hide anything and will never do it, i am coutinually translating all the essence and technique about Heixi Therapy, for everyone's reference, but you should know that translation is an arduous work, especially for some oriental wisdom, furthermore, I have many other things to do everyday. I can see that so far, you still cannot get to the point, I will post another article as soon as possible for your reference

 

[phoenix1]

Jacky1980,

I’ve read enough from your posts and your text to understand what you are trying to do. I will be completely honest.

This is Mr. Heixi therapy summed up as best I can. Acceptance stops anxiety, depression and OCD. Your strategy for acceptance is to stop fighting, to stop repelling our symptoms, our anxieties, our depression, our OCD and eventually it will go away.

I have mixed feeling about the therapy because it does deal with the fundamentally important aspect for anxiety, but its single minded to the point of recklessness.

You are using the same techniques for depression and OCD.

Depression is not anxiety and acceptance of depression is quite absurd if you knew anything about depression. Let me explain though. Depression is basically the improper use of acceptance in itself. Its usually a result of someone who is overwhelmed with something (usually anxiety) that they get to a point where they give up fighting and start ‘accepting’ that they can’t change or can’t succeed. It becomes a ripple effect where everything gets pulls down and they start accepting more and more things such as that they are worthless, that they are not going to success, that they will be alone all their lives and so on and so. They are actually giving up the fight and accepting things they shouldn’t be (things that are changeable). To tell someone to stop repelling depression is like telling someone to give up even more. Its almost the opposite of anxiety and your advice is a little dangerous for depression.

Having said that if someone effectively does properly accept those things in their lives that are unchangeable which they are fighting against, then their anxiety will be lower. But that also means that they are less likely to give up the fight (due to less anxiety and less problems) and subsequently fall to depression (the wrong type of acceptance). So overall, yes if you did accept more things that are unchangeable then you would be less likely to be depressed. But to say that you shouldn’t fight depression like you would anxiety, is showing a lack of true understanding of how it all comes into play. The way to get out of depression, after your mind has stabilized and readjusted to the forced acceptance, is not to accept but to actually start fighting again and start acting and working your way back up. You actually have to repel and not accept in this case.

You are using one concept to recklessness without seeming to know why it exactly works. It works because its suppose to be something that is unchangeable and it only works specifically with anxiety. Unchangeable is not something that is a perfect concept either. Losing a leg and summertime are unchangeable, but your traits and symptoms are partly unchangeable and partly changeable. You don’t seem to be able to distinguish between the two.

Your approach to OCD is not quite right either, although its a lot more appropriate than depression. Its an extremely difficult issue and I will go into why later on perhaps.

 

[Jacky1980]

Thank you very much for your criticism and worry about those who are suffering from Depression, which is the most destructive mental suffering now in the world. Currently there are about 150 million people throughout the world suffering from Depression; it is really the cancer of mental world. I also used to suffer from Depression; my description of it is “every day is like the first day when my love has left me”. However, what I post here is the application of Oriental Philosophy in the treatment of Social Phobia, not Depression or OCD, I have posted another thread of OCD treatment in the OCD Obsessive Compulsive Disorder Forum here, just part of the whole article, and in other forums on Depression, I have posted some threads about the treatment of Depression with Oriental Philosophy Therapy there. All in all, these 3 mental sufferings have the same essence, namely, low self-esteem or self-denial. However, in the earlier stage of treating these 3, we will use different therapies according to different condition and different person, removing their symptom as quickly as possible, in the early treatment of depression, intensive use of Cognitive Therapy and NLP (neuron-linguistic programming) is a must, if we tell those depression sufferers to accept in the first place, I believe they cannot tolerate such severe distress, while for SP, Exposure Therapy would be usually applied, as for OCD, Morita Therapy is very effective. All these methods would be used flexibly according to every one’s different situation, so I cannot detail them here one by one. But when we go to the final stage of treatment, all the sufferers must go through the essence of Buddhism, namely acceptance of yourself, only by that, they can completely recover. Therefore, I have said many western therapies are very useful in removing the symptoms (which is decided by the cultural difference of east and west, I will discuss about that later on), but they don’t have effective ways of finishing the last step.

 

[Remus]

Here I just got authorization from one in SPW who is talking to me through MSN recently, now I can post our chat record here for everyone's reference, for this girl, I never mention Heixi Therapy to her, just try my best to help her:

Can you get them to PM me this verification for use of thier messenger log?

thx

 

[phoenix1]

Let me ask you a question jacky..

Are you aware that too much acceptance or acceptance of the wrong thing is almost as bad as too little acceptance?

You seem to view acceptance in absolute terms where your logic is the greater the acceptance the better. Back to that in a bit though.

You are right that depression does have the same elements of low self-esteem and self-denial. At the core of depression is usually someone who is trying to fight something that is unchangeable, just like anxiety. But its essence is not the same at all. Ironically, depression is your minds way of forcing yourself to let go and stop repelling. It’s Mr.heixi treatment on steroids in essence. Depression will temporarily take away a massive amount of anxiety (unless you fear depression) just like what you are trying to accomplish. The problem is that once you stabilize at a higher acceptance level, your expectations and your extreme desire to fit in will push that anxiety level way up again which will create the possibility of depression all over again.

I’ve been in the psychology field long enough now to know what works and what doesn’t. I also don’t dabble in the western ideas of trying to cut off symptoms in an effort to fix things so I do appreciate the refreshing approach. I have no problem with trying to treat people with greater acceptance, specifically with things that are unchangeable or virtually unchangeable. This will also have a circular effect of lowering OCD and depression.

What I do have a problem with is how broad you are pushing the acceptance. Acceptance of actual depression symptoms and aspects of depression is quite honestly stupid at the least and possibly dangerous. Acceptance of everything possible is just as bad. If you tell people to accept things that are ‘changeable’, you can cause a whole set of new problems. You need to clearly define what is changeable and what is not. You need to help the people you treat know the difference as well.

Too much acceptance or acceptance of the changeable things will make someone complacent or unable to change or adapt. It will also make someone’s mood fluctuate all day long when they accept things that don’t need to be accepted with pain and sadness and then when they realize that its not true or its changeable they become extremely happy. It creates a rollercoaster of emotions as your mind tries to continually adapt. It will also increase the chance of depression if someone learns to accept things that are changeable.

 

[Jacky1980]

Hi,Phoenix,
let me put aside your question and give you some suggestion to help you.
Judging from all of your replies, I can see that you are a man of psychological background and you are good at analyzing, just like former me. I have immersed myself in psychological material for years to help myself, I tried all the methods which I think make sense, but finally I didn't recover at all, even if my symtoms have been relieved temporarily, the effect did not last long. I was still that me. When I met Mr.Heixi, I didn't think his therapy is reasonable, but I didn't persuade myself to believe, I just tried myself. And the result showed that my choice is right, for my whole life, I have never felt so free and so brave like I am now. Complete recovery doesn't only mean a change of state, it means I can say goodbye to my past and start a totally new life, my dream, my ambition, all those i had abandoned, can be continued again. I have been studying NLP now, trying to combine it with Heixi Therapy.
There are 12 principles in NLP,I would like to share some of them with you,
1 principle is that "same behavior will lead to same result", let you ask you, you have studied and analyzed psychological therapies for such a long time, have you managed to help yourself to recover? Have you found a way which makes sense? Please stopping doing that, you have already wasted much time like I did before. Your wrong cognition and incorrect ways of thinking will never lead you in the correct direction. You will never find a way which makes sense, even if you do find one, you will not recognize them. Repeat the same behavior, you will repeat the same result.

2."usefulness is more important", even if you give me 24 hours, I don't believe I can persuade you to believe that Heixi Therapy will make sense, because I myself,in the same state of you, at that time didn't believe it at all. However, practice is the only way to test the theory, I am the living proof, many people in China are the living proof, I am sorry that our English webpage is under constructiojn,when it is finished, I believe you will know more about us. So please do not try to analyze it, you will not know why it make sense and why it works, if you could understand it now, you wouldn't have been a social phobia sufferer.

Here is a few sincere suggestion:
1.Do not study psychological materials yourself, which is not suitable for your current condition. Even if you want to, please try some Morita Therapy works, but please study it carefully to understand it and practise correctly, I suggest you find a therapist who specializes in it.
2.Join in Heixi Therapy, guided by an experienced man to survive your past. It is only a suggestion, if you would like to know more, I can discuss with you about that.

To Remus,
I have told that friend to PM you.

 

[Remus]

Can you get them to PM me this verification for use of thier messenger log?

thx

the other party has confirmed this to be ok

thx 8)

 

[phoenix1]

Jacky,

Hmmm so let me get this straight, so instead of answering my question you take the moral high ground saying “look at me, I’m cured…and you are not…that means I must be right and you are wrong.” That must be some incredible therapy there. The funny thing is that I was actually on your side. I want you to succeed, but you cant seem to answer any questions.

The fact that you even use the word ‘cured’ when talking about anxiety, shows that you some difficulty when understanding anxiety. Anxiety is a balancing game of using anxiety to change and adapt vs. the agony and pain of anxiety itself. Acceptance lowers anxiety by making you believe you need to change less in yourself or the world around you.

Although I don’t really feel the need to defend myself, or tell you whether I’m cured or not, I have significantly improved my situation with acceptance being a big part of it. Yes, I still have my problems, like I’m certain you do as well.

I would never desire to be completely cured as you say. I love to fight my battles. I love to change and adapt. I love some of that pain and agony that pushes me to test my limits. I desire anxiety when it comes down to it.

My brother in law is ‘cured’. Nothing ever bothers him. He sits at home and doesn’t do shit. He could do a speech in front of 1000 people with even thinking twice about it. Although he has all the intelligence in the world he doesn’t remember anything nor tries to improve his life in anyway. He is at perfect acceptance with himself and the world around him. He doesn’t have a shred of anxiety, but he would be the last person in the world that I would want to be like.

So now I ask the question again because you didn’t answer it. Do you know that too much acceptance or acceptance of the wrong thing is almost as bad as too little acceptance? If you disagree with that, then tell me why.

 

[delacratic]

(New user...)
Hi Everyone,

Why've you all given up on this thread?
Ok, to be honest, it was getting a tad repetetive, but it was interesting. I'm very interested in a lot of the concepts of buddhism (from my limited knowledge), and Mindfulness (which I was just able to notice owed a lot to buddhism, but also zazen and tao meditation).

I'm wondering if anyone has had further thoughts. Myself, I feel that this mindful approach must be the root of coming to terms with the anxiety we feel. Having visited the mindful recovery website (thanks for the heads-up Muffet), it interests me and reminded me of something I read in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence, about concentrating on the job in hand. I know myself that my anxieties and doubts fill my head all the time, and I think that if one is able to be Mindful to the task one is doing - purely involved (to whatever extent that is possible...) that this may be a way to, well, without getting grandiose, Live(!). It's like eating delicious meals with friends and reaching the end and realising I've not even noticed it due to the chaos in my head! If one is able to be mindful of the task (or meal) in hand, firstly, how much sweeter is that meal? but also perhaps this enjoyment, and the involvement one feels might perhaps detract, or atleast skew the anxiety for the better? I'm not pretending to have the answer here, but feel that if one is able to integrate mindfulness into their existence, that they could improve the quality of their thought.

Anyway, my thoughts...
It'd be good to hear yours. Perhaps a new thread would've been better. I dunno, I'm new to this forum malarky.

Cheers

 

[thequietone]

I felt pretty moved by Jacky's story of recovery.....it's the kind of miracle I used to search for before getting discouraged. I do love Taoism. I have a little book of Tao Te Ching; just reading calms me down, even if I find some of the "all is nothing" philosophy a little hard to grasp.

I think acceptance is possible, people like Jacky are proof. When I sit and am quiet within myself, I feel the edge of the peace acceptance offers, but it's a far cry from reality, and like it or not we all have to live in the real world. (this is a difficult fact for me to accept!) We all have to function as best we can. I don't hold hope for "the cure" anymore--it's a disappointing search because it's impossible to be perfect. Life is full of ups and downs. Just because we've got SA or OCD, or APD or depression or what have you, doesn't mean we can't take life's bumps and bruises the same as everyone else. We are always more resilient than we think.

 

[delacratic]

We are always more resilient than we think.

Yes and thank-you.

 

[Jacky1980]

Hi,Phoenix1
Sorry for late reply because I am extremely busy these days. Actually I am not delibrately avoiding answering your questions, I just wish my reply to each thread is helpful not only to you but also to everyone else here, I sincerely wish I can give useful advice to everyone here rather than purely answer their questions.Now let me deal with your questions one by one.

In your previous post, you told me of a way to change shyness,"If you go into a party and yell something out of the blue, for that moment or perhaps that night, you are no longer shy. If you learned to do that every time without much effort, you might be seen as crazy, but I doubt you would be considered shy by others or yourself anymore", actually, from your description, I failed to see you change shyness, you just inhibit it with a sort of external power. Shyness is like a piece of wood on the water, your press it, it will sink, when you remove your hand from it, it will float on the water again. You don't change it essentially all the way along, to put it another way, if you walk through cemetery at midnight, you surely will be scared, at that time, you may sing a song londly to give yourself more courage, but from the bottom of your heart, you are still scared, singing a song loudly just help you to inhibit or suppress your timidity in order to go through a cemetery successfully. We seldom meet cemetery but our life is full of social situation, sometimes we can use your method to "survive" somewhat severe situation, but we cannot use that in everyday situation because it only suppress the shyness rather than change it, what's worse, "suppressing" itself will fueling your shyness, like I said in my post, it will give power to it to make it much stronger.

BTW, my friend, you seem to misunderstand my words a lot in terms of "Anxiety" and "Acceptance", what we are talking about here is always "social anxiety" or "social phobia", an uncontrollable anxiety state rather than normal anxiety. Normal anxiety is a indespensable part of one's mental state and there is really no need to change it and I really don't remember I have ever said we need to change normal anxiety.However, "social Phobia" is a kind of anxiety of undue extent, we need to cure it, but "cure" doesn't means eradicate it but allievate it to the normal degree.

As for "Acceptance", the key word in my post. Acceptance here never means "accept the all the things around you and never try to make improvement", it is human's instinct to improve themselves, we need to accept ourselves, love ourselves first, based on that, we can try to improve ourselves, for example, you are shy, you are timid in front of people, accept it, saying to yourself "OK, I am a shy boy/girl, I am timid, I always blush", on the basis of the acceptance, practise according to my post, http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt12364.html
my friend, I sincerely suggest you to practise first rather than sit there analyzing, it is just undue analyzing that create such people like you and me, pleast stand up, go out, think less and do more.

To delacratic
You are quite right. We are always more resilient than we think, just go out and practise, jusm into the swimming pool, enven if we are ridiculed to the extreme degree, we will not die, we will not lose one flesh, we are still us. I once saw a video clip on the internet show various awkward situation of George Bush, the US President, I don't see he cares about that, if he does, he would not be the president. Such famous people may be ridiculed that way, not to say we ordinary citizen.

 

[phoenix1]

Jacky,

Of course shyness or being scared can be changed to some degree. If it cant, then everything you say is a complete waste of time anyway. Do you even realize how illogical that is?

Basically you are trying to convince people that it is a part of themselves and unchangeable in an effort to lower resistance and raise acceptance so that they end up changing in the end by being more confident (less shy) and less scared (less socially anxious). Its quite funny when you think about it.

But the point is, you cant really tell someone that it’s a part of you and that you cant change it and simply just accept it without addressing the underlying reasons that drives the need to fight. Many times its some irrational conditional fear response from ridicule in the past. Or probably more common its some unnaturally high expectations of yourself.