The world without religion?

bleach

Banned
No, were you? A stupid question, to be sure.

Well I was looking for a possible explanation as to why you would believe something so profoundly ignorant as 'The United States was built around a spirit of Judeo-Christian ethics'. Obviously you slept through a lot of US history classes. All of the Hebrew books on governance recommend extreme repression. The NT doesn't even touch on the subject much. On the flip side there are many, many, many links between the founding of American ethics and Rousseau, Locke, et al.
 

powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
Well perfect means without a defect, so obviously a perfect being cannot act imperfectly. We can't create our flaws, we are born with them, they are God given (this is using what I imagine would be your definition of flawed, I don't believe we're flawed at all). Therefore God created a flawed being and was angered by our being flawed (?)

No, God created a perfect being (man) and gave him free choice. Acting on that free choice, man decided to disobey God by consciously doing something He told them not to do. Therefore, man, by his own sinful decision, is the creator of his own demise. Just as one makes a choice to partake in drunkenness, drugs, etc. They create their own flaws and problems. This is basic Christian theology, that when debating, one should know. Otherwise, it seems like you're arrogantly promoting something you know nothing about, which comes across nonsensical.

Salvation is distinct from morality? Isn't your idea of salvation acting in a moral way to your neighbor? How can you be immoral and be truly Christian? (again, we disagree on what's moral, but I'm using your definition)

Again, you don't understand the basics of Christian theology. Salvation is being redeemed from sin. Jesus dying on the cross, being punished in our place, is salvation. It is being freely cleared of sin -- it is payment. Now, morality is a byproduct of loving God. I'm not moral because it earns me Heaven, I am moral because I am motivated by what God has done for us. We aren't under the law from a Christian standpoint, instead, we are under Grace. Christianity is not motivated by morality (as you had purported), it is motivated by forgiveness.

In fact, the definition of salvation (redemption, same thing) is "the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil." Is that not morality?

No, it's not morality, it's forgiveness -- a payment of sin. Morality is acting a certain way, whereas salvation is paying for something. Very different, and obviously so. You can look at it like this; I jump out of an airplane, and the only way for me to land safely without perishing is to pull the parachute. Morality is, again, secondary because we are already in a lost state. The motivation is finding a way out of this disconnected state, and that is through Jesus.

Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with morals. Evolution is a scientific theory which explains life's diversity on Earth. Period. It's as if you're telling me that the theory of a spherical earth is a religious doctrine.

Evolution has a very moralistic element to it. If you view human beings as mere animals, with no special disconnect from them, then you are going to have a vastly different perception of morality than those who believe they are disconnected from them. Why should the inferior live on? Why should we try to save a cancer victim if evolution is simply weeding this person out of existence? Whereas Christian doctrine (and other religions, admittedly) says we value human life as sacred and to be saved, evolutionism would say something vastly different. In essence, evolution is a philosophy that encompasses A LOT about morality. To claim it is nothing more than a scientific fact like a spherical earth is to say you haven't thought much about the real implications of evolutionary doctrine.

Evolution has an almost universal scientific consensus.

Scientists feel obligated to come to a conclusion about something naturalistically. They are taught to do so. If they can't find the answer, they will come up with the best explanation they have. If design is the best answer, it won't be considered because it involves God (and God isn't "scientific") But just because you remove God and design from the equation doesn't make your next theory more scientific just because God is removed. Many believe science means that human beings must have all the answers, and if they don't have them, they will fill in the gaps by their best deductions apart from God.

You only want to attack science because it clashes with your religious beliefs, but that's no good (I think).

I don't want to attack science. In fact, I love using computers, driving cars, watching television, etc. I love what science has done to advance society. But this science was done via EMPIRICAL means, which means with experimental material to work with. Evolution is a historical science that deals with circumstantial evidence that can be easily interpreted of the past. Much of the theory is predicated on the fact that all life is organically similar -- but this makes sense through design if all life is going to live in the same organic world, with all organisms eating the same food, breathing the same air, etc.

Science is dictated by experimental, operational development, evolution is a philosophical DEDUCTION of current facts. It is not conventionally "scientific."


I know when you decide that the Bible is all you need you just want to shut your eyes and cover your ears, but scientists don't just support willy nilly theories. There's so much evidence that has piled up and it all points one way and it just so happens it's not toward creationism. If there is ever evidence pointing to creationism, you can bet that scientists will reevaluate, but so far none exists. If God wants evolution to go away, then he needs to stop giving scientists so much overwhelming evidence for it.

Evidence is the same for creation and evolutionism. It's just the way one interprets it that matters. Philosophical deduction. Scientists will never accept intelligent design, because as I said earlier, that would mean having to look to a Higher intelligence for the answer, and they believe science means that human beings must have all the answers. They are "willingly ignorant" of God's design, as the Bible would put it.

The evolutionary usefulness of eyes and not killing other people is a no brainer. Imagine trying to send a group of blind people to hunt down a mastodon. Imagine what the population of our species would be if everyone killed other people for no particular reason. These two things work so well that many many species share (and shared long before we were around)the same features.

I'm not talking about how evolutionarily it would be useful, I'm talking about the mechanism that it would take for the eye to develop. The eye has so many interworking parts, and complicated sensory networks, that an evolutionary mechanism is really unattainable for this. We would NEVER be able to replicate, on a computer or otherwise, how mutations and natural selection formulated such amazing systems such as eyes. It MUST be taken on FAITH.

If a tribe willfully decides to reject outside contact, it's immoral to force your culture on to them.

Didn't you even READ my last post. I told you you that it isn't about forcing your culture on them, it's about CONFORMING to their culture, and allowing them to retain it. But God doesn't require people to leave their culture to come to Him. They preach God in the CONTEXT of their culture.

They may have been living there happily for hundreds of years, it's not our place to tell them that they can't have their own beliefs, even if you don't agree with them.

No, it's about preaching God to them, in their own culture, and allowing them to hear the Gospel of Christ. No one is forcing them to do anything.

Missionaries do do a lot of good around the World, but in the past there have been instances of the destroying of people's culture because they were happy with the way they were.

Really, where do you get your info? Missionaries do good work in the name of Christ, and they preach the Gospel. They aren't destroying anything.
 
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powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
Well I was looking for a possible explanation as to why you would believe something so profoundly ignorant as 'The United States was built around a spirit of Judeo-Christian ethics'. Obviously you slept through a lot of US history classes. All of the Hebrew books on governance recommend extreme repression. The NT doesn't even touch on the subject much. On the flip side there are many, many, many links between the founding of American ethics and Rousseau, Locke, et al.

So you are denying that America has had an ethically Judeo-Christian background? That's interesting, considering Christmas and Easter still have a special place in the holiday lexicon. The Ten Commandments are still on the wall behind the Supreme Court Justices when they take the bench. Our coins still display the motto "In God We Trust." Alexis Tocqueville observed more than a century and a half ago, that "There is no country in the world, where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America." That's still true today. We live, not under a Christian government, but in a nation where all are free to practice their own particular religion, in accommodations with other religions, and in accordance with the basic principles of the nation, which are Christian in origin. It is in that sense that America may still properly be referred to as a "Christian nation."
 
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SickJoke

Well-known member
Powerfulthoughts is right, Christians are moral. Here's one of my favorite moral verses from the bible: kill everyone (including the children) except the virgins, and rape the virgins!

Numbers 31:15-18 said:
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

;)
 

powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
Powerfulthoughts is right, Christians are moral. Here's one of my favorite moral verses from the bible: kill everyone (including the children) except the virgins, and rape the virgins!



;)

I love you SickJoke. I love your posts about social anxiety, but I love your posts about religion and evolution even more! Thanks for the drive-by red herring.

But I know you are a scholar of ancient history, the Bible, and Culture, so I would think you would have the ability and patience to read in depth about this issue. What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites

This above is a website I have been consulting for years, and I would appreciate your full attention to this page regarding your drive by mocking. If you are actually as concerned as you imply, you will no doubt read every word in my web page to you.

[edit] By the way, care to tell which atheistic site you copy and pasted that verse from?
 
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SickJoke

Well-known member
[edit] By the way, care to tell which atheistic site you copy and pasted that verse from?

That's straight from the bible, you can find it in your very own copy.
But I know you are a scholar of ancient history, the Bible, and Culture, so I would think you would have the ability and patience to read in depth about this issue. What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites

This above is a website I have been consulting for years, and I would appreciate your full attention to this page regarding your drive by mocking. If you are actually as concerned as you imply, you will no doubt read every word in my web page to you.

Well at least that page doesn't deny the atrocities of the bible, it only tries to justify them. I don't care about some apologists justifications. A loving god would have come to a better solution than "kill them all except the virgins, and keep the virgins for your own personal benefit." That is not an example of perfect morality; that is cruel and barbaric. Your sense of morality is better than that, and so is mine and most everyone's on this forum.

Here's another of my favorites: god tells us to stone someone to death for gathering firewood on Sunday!

Numbers 15:32-36 said:
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Yes, the "lord" is the example of perfect morality! :rolleyes:
 

powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
I don't care about some apologists justifications.

Well then you reveal that you don't truly care about the answers. You are in it for "shock value" and spouting off stuff to the unaccustomed. Therefore, you spouting out stuff that, by your own admission, you don't even wish to understand, warrants your post no further merit.

P.S. It's in the Bible, but I am positive you didn't search that verse out yourself. I would assume you ran to some internet site you idolize.
 

SickJoke

Well-known member
Well then you reveal that you don't truly care about the answers. You are in it for "shock value" and spouting off stuff to the unaccustomed. Therefore, you spouting out stuff that, by your own admission, you don't even wish to understand, warrants your post no further merit.

I read the page. He describes the background of the situation and tries to justify god's decision. He's wrong: it's not a justifiable decision. It's a cruel and barbaric decision.

P.S. It's in the Bible, but I am positive you didn't search that verse out yourself. I would assume you ran to some internet site you idolize.

Don't assume. I was raised Christian and I've read the bible. What matters is, those horrendous passages are in the bible, supposedly a source of "perfect morality," and there are plenty of other wicked acts that I could directly quote.
 

Lea

Banned
No wonder you are so anti-religious SickJoke when you were raised Christian.

I think Old Testament is cruel, but then with Jesus Christ it changed, he taught forgiveness instead of paying the same coin. Now only the New Testament is supposed to be valid.
 

worrywort

Well-known member
hey guys....please don't shoot me!!!:confused:::(:....but I just had a few points I'd like to share, that you might like to consider.....or not....it's cool!

1. I agree there are some problematic verses in the bible, but I don't think it's fair to make a judgement of God using 1% of the bible verses when the other 99% talk of Gods Love and goodness and holiness and righteousness and justice etc....you wouldn't judge a friend this way.....at least I hope not!!:eek:

2. "save for yourselves every girl; who has never slept with a man" does not mean "rape the virgins"!!!:eek:....it could easily mean, save for marriage or something.

3. God did not say these words, Moses did...I think that's an important difference. The bible is full of imperfect, messed up human beings that make mistakes, like you and me.

4. I think it's important to understand the true context of these situations and the wars the israelites fought in.....i.e. Did you feel outrage when Winston Churchill declared war on Hitler and the Nazi's? Was it wrong for the allies to kill the nazis?...if God is just the he will do what is right.

5. We are not God's!....I think this is an important difference too. If I murder someone it is wrong because I didn't create the person and I don't have the power to restore its life....but would it really be the same if I had created the person in the first place, AND had the power to restore its life?
 

SickJoke

Well-known member
No wonder you are so anti-religious SickJoke when you were raised Christian.

Hahaha :D

But plenty are raised Christian and remain believers for their entire lives. I do think that a skeptical mind accompanied by a Christian upbringing will result in an atheist most of the time :D

I think Old Testament is cruel, but then with Jesus Christ it changed, he taught forgiveness instead of paying the same coin. Now only the New Testament is supposed to be valid.

Well the horrific passages I cited are from the New Testament, and there are many others I could quote. As for the New Testament being more forgiving I would have to disagree: It wasn't until the New Testament that the concept of eternal torture, I do mean hell of course, was introduced.
 

Nervous

Well-known member
It wasn't until the New Testament that the concept of eternal torture, I do mean hell of course, was introduced.

Wasn't the concept of heaven also introduced in the NT? That's where the Xian sheeple believe they will go after jesus died for their sins. LAWLZ!
 

SickJoke

Well-known member
1. I agree there are some problematic verses in the bible, but I don't think it's fair to make a judgement of God using 1% of the bible verses when the other 99% talk of Gods Love and goodness and holiness and righteousness and justice etc....you wouldn't judge a friend this way.....at least I hope not!!:eek:

Have you really read the bible? Those percentages are way off. If god is supposed to be perfectly moral, he wouldn't have instructed the authors to write such wicked, disgusting acts in the bible. And if you say those specific passages aren't the word of god: how do you determine which parts are from god and which aren't? You pick and choose which parts of the bible are morally accurate by using your own internal sense of morality.

2. "save for yourselves every girl; who has never slept with a man" does not mean "rape the virgins"!!!:eek:....it could easily mean, save for marriage or something.

Oh OK, then that changes everything. Murder these poor girls' families, and then force the girls into marriage. Sounds perfectly moral to me :rolleyes:

3. God did not say these words, Moses did...I think that's an important difference. The bible is full of imperfect, messed up human beings that make mistakes, like you and me.

Moses was being commanded by the lord.

4. I think it's important to understand the true context of these situations and the wars the israelites fought in.....i.e. Did you feel outrage when Winston Churchill declared war on Hitler and the Nazi's? Was it wrong for the allies to kill the nazis?...if God is just the he will do what is right.

Did the Allies kill the Nazis' children and take their virgin daughters for their own personal use? No. Do you know why? Because the Allies are morally superior to the god of the bible.

5. We are not God's!....I think this is an important difference too. If I murder someone it is wrong because I didn't create the person and I don't have the power to restore its life....but would it really be the same if I had created the person in the first place, AND had the power to restore its life?

Is it right for you and your wife to murder your child simply because you created him? As for "the power to restore life," god orders many to be killed as punishment, and he doesn't mention restoring their lives. In fact, those of which god disapproves are sent to hell to be mercilessly tortured FOREVER.

How can anyone possibly view ETERNAL SUFFERING as morally correct?
 

Riiya

Well-known member
No wonder you are so anti-religious SickJoke when you were raised Christian.

I think Old Testament is cruel, but then with Jesus Christ it changed, he taught forgiveness instead of paying the same coin. Now only the New Testament is supposed to be valid.

I'm always curious about why some people who were raised Christians ended up hating Christianity with that much passion. Did they start by doubting God because nothing good happened to them no matter how much they prayed and begged to him? Did they just have a series of bad experience with their fellow Christians (not unlike the series of bad experience with people that led to their social phobia) and they're unable to let go? Was it the rebellious teenage years that broke the last straw on the camel's back?

For the record, the only thing that Christianity today requires is the acceptance of Jesus as the Son of God. Christianity does promote love and peace because the two commandments that Jesus considered the greatest were to "love God" and to "love your neighbors." What God did in the Hebrew Bible is irrelevant - if many Christians today don't care about it I don't see why anyone would use it to attack their faith. It would make more sense to use the "your God is evil" argument to attack the Jewish, especially since religious text obviously equals religion. As far as Christianity is concerned, on the other hand, God so loved the world that he gave his only son. Accept that and the debate may actually lead to somewhere. (Of course, the debate that I have in mind would also be done in an effort to understand the other's point of view rather than to prove anyone wrong. Something tells me that's not gonna happen - everyone wants to be right and be obnoxious about it. That's what makes the world go 'round, I guess.)

And about some of the stories in the Hebrew Bible that have been mentioned... I somehow think I understand them better than anyone else here ever would. I'd elaborate, but I don't think it would matter either way.
 
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Nervous

Well-known member
What God did in the Hebrew Bible is irrelevant - if many Christians today don't care about it I don't see why anyone would use it to attack their faith. It would make more sense to use the "your God is evil" argument to attack the Jewish, especially since religious text obviously equals religion.

Exactly! These militant Atheists choose an easy target like xianity and attack it for something that is more jewish than it is xian. I won't go any further as I don't want to get banned by a PC mod.
 

bleach

Banned
I'm always curious about why some people who were raised Christians ended up hating Christianity with that much passion.

Ignorance of worse religions and also the basic psychological principle: it's always easier to hit the one who doesn't hit back.
 

bleach

Banned
So you are denying that America has had an ethically Judeo-Christian background? That's interesting, considering Christmas and Easter still have a special place in the holiday lexicon. The Ten Commandments are still on the wall behind the Supreme Court Justices when they take the bench. Our coins still display the motto "In God We Trust." Alexis Tocqueville observed more than a century and a half ago, that "There is no country in the world, where the Christian religion retains a greater influence over the souls of men than in America." That's still true today. We live, not under a Christian government, but in a nation where all are free to practice their own particular religion, in accommodations with other religions, and in accordance with the basic principles of the nation, which are Christian in origin. It is in that sense that America may still properly be referred to as a "Christian nation."

This is certainly an argument that _Americans_ have a Christian background. Not an argument for the US having one. The Ten Commandments may be on court walls as a symbol, but they are in no legal texts and in fact they contradict the very religious freedom which you mentioned. 'No other gods' and what not. This is the difference between law of the land and hearts 'n' minds of the people.
 

SickJoke

Well-known member
I'm always curious about why some people who were raised Christians ended up hating Christianity with that much passion. Did they start by doubting God because nothing good happened to them no matter how much they prayed and begged to him? Did they just have a series of bad experience with their fellow Christians (not unlike the series of bad experience with people that led to their social phobia) and they're unable to let go? Was it the rebellious teenage years that broke the last straw on the camel's back?

In the case of myself and everyone else to whom I've spoken, it's none of the above. It usually plays out like this:

1. As a child your parents, and other authority figures such as ministers, teach you about their religion, and you believe them because you're young and impressionable.

2. You grow older and realize there are many, many religions, and not all of them can be true. In fact there have been millions of religions throughout human history with very different teachings about the universe and man's role in it; many of these teachings contradict each other. You also learn that many religious teachings have been proven false via scientific progress.

3. You recognize that there is no reason to believe that the teachings of your particular religion are true. In fact there is no reason to believe that the teachings of any religion are true. Our ancestors used religion, and other forms of superstition, to explain phenomena that they were unable to understand at that time. We now have the scientific method and religion is obsolete. Yet many still cling to religion to maintain tradition, to combat the fear of death, and to find consolation in times of hardship.

4. You become outraged for the following reasons, all of which are based on the assumption that a ridiculous, mythical, Bronze Age book of fairy tales is the word of some all-powerful creator:

a) Children are being told that if they don't believe in god, they face an eternity of pain and suffering in hell.

b) Children are being told that "faith," belief without evidence, is a virtue, rather than learning to question, to use logic, and to think for themselves. This idea of "faith as a virtue" also provides a cover for religious fanatics: the suicide bomber thinks he's being virtuous, because he has faith in his religious beliefs.

c) Scientific progress and education is being hindered, take stem cell research and the teaching of evolution as examples.

What God did in the Hebrew Bible is irrelevant - if many Christians today don't care about it I don't see why anyone would use it to attack their faith.

Why is it irrelevant? It's the same god! Christians don't care about it, because they like to pick and choose which parts they think are true. That's right, god is customizable, you can make your very own religion! :rolleyes:

As far as Christianity is concerned, on the other hand, God so loved the world that he gave his only son. Accept that and the debate may actually lead to somewhere. (Of course, the debate that I have in mind would also be done in an effort to understand the other's point of view rather than to prove anyone wrong. Something tells me that's not gonna happen - everyone wants to be right and be obnoxious about it. That's what makes the world go 'round, I guess.)

Did he really "give" his son according to the Christian bible? No! Jesus was resurrected, and now he gets to party it up in heaven for all of eternity! Boy, that's some sacrifice!
 
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kyle

Banned
what I've learned while being in forums is one golden rule. "Stay out of religious debates!" :)
 
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