The world without religion?

Rise Against

Well-known member
I have been pondering, what would the world be like if religion was never invented/created? Almost every war ever fought was based on disagreements with religion, so would the world be more peaceful? Or would the world be complete anarchy with no rules or morals?
 

SickJoke

Well-known member
I have been pondering, what would the world be like if religion was never invented/created? Almost every war ever fought was based on disagreements with religion, so would the world be more peaceful? Or would the world be complete anarchy with no rules or morals?

It's had such a big impact on humanity that it's impossible to say.

However, if superstition ended today we'd be making far more scientific progress. Morality doesn't come from religion. It has evolutionary value, it's beneficial to survival; it's also found in other apes.
 
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bleach

Banned
Without religion, I am sure people would still believe in a lot of silly things. We would still have superstitions and rituals and taboos, but there would be less exclusion based on who believes in which god(s). More of a prehistoric kind of belief, without the systemic, structured cults that we know of.

War would not die. Count on that.
 

Perfidion

Well-known member
Bleach is right. Religion is simply a convenient excuse to wage war upon your neighbours. Take that excuse away, and another will promptly replace it.

Religion is one of the best excuses however, because you never have to prove anything. It's all about "faith" which is an ethereal concept at the best of times. "We must wage war upon those people over there because they wear tall, pointy hats to church instead of round, flat ones. God has decreed it!" "How do you know?" "Heretic! Burn him!" It's all rather sad when you think about it.
 

powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
A lot of morality is inborn - a created knowledge given by God. Most cultures that know nothing about conventional religion already know that murdering your own people is wrong, that lying and deception is hurtful, etc. But along with this innate sense of morality also comes an innate sense of a Creator God that gave life to everything there is. That's why religion is inevitable, because people are searching to identify that inborn knowledge of who God is. Religion is a natural product of the heart of man, I believe, because God's imprint is already on the hearts of man. It takes a lot of rationalizing away this imprint in order to convince yourself that God is not existent.

To say religion is detrimental to society is to say that mankind in general is fundamentally flawed from birth, because that is where this comes from. Even atheistic evolutionists have said something along the lines of "religion must be an evolved instinct of the past." Of course, like I said, rationalizing away the natural born knowledge of God.

Moreover, religion, like I said, seems to be an exploration for that inborn sense of God. I believe we find this truth of God in the Bible and Jesus Christ, as that's what has fulfilled and changed my life in ways indescribable to those that don't have the experience. When I contrast my knowledge of God to people like Muslims, who are largely populated by birth rather than conversion, I see a misguided attempt to fulfill this inborn knowledge of God, and therefore I see a perverted sense of trying to force this knowledge on other human beings. That's not the way Christianity works. And this is because the truth converts people to it, it does not have to be forced upon people.
 

Thelema

Well-known member
A lot of morality is inborn - a created knowledge given by God. Most cultures that know nothing about conventional religion already know that murdering your own people is wrong, that lying and deception is hurtful, etc. But along with this innate sense of morality also comes an innate sense of a Creator God that gave life to everything there is. That's why religion is inevitable, because people are searching to identify that inborn knowledge of who God is. Religion is a natural product of the heart of man, I believe, because God's imprint is already on the hearts of man. It takes a lot of rationalizing away this imprint in order to convince yourself that God is not existent.

To say religion is detrimental to society is to say that mankind in general is fundamentally flawed from birth, because that is where this comes from. Even atheistic evolutionists have said something along the lines of "religion must be an evolved instinct of the past." Of course, like I said, rationalizing away the natural born knowledge of God.

Moreover, religion, like I said, seems to be an exploration for that inborn sense of God. I believe we find this truth of God in the Bible and Jesus Christ, as that's what has fulfilled and changed my life in ways indescribable to those that don't have the experience. When I contrast my knowledge of God to people like Muslims, who are largely populated by birth rather than conversion, I see a misguided attempt to fulfill this inborn knowledge of God, and therefore I see a perverted sense of trying to force this knowledge on other human beings. That's not the way Christianity works. And this is because the truth converts people to it, it does not have to be forced upon people.

Of course inborn morals kind of invalidates the premise of religion in the first place. Maybe the people didn't need to die for one religion or another. Maybe the 1000s of years of culture in a society didn't need to be destroyed to make way for Jesus. Maybe atheists aren't immoral and doomed to Hell. Maybe we'll be just fine without religion.
 
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hmm.. The world would probably be quite dull and boring without religion. We'd have alot less in our history books to read about (being that religion has caused alot of conflict), and whether it's ultimately real or not, without it, there would be alot of people in this world that would lose the only thing they have to hope for, and probably blow their brains out (because there's no concequences that keeps them hanging on).
However, if there was no religion, then a few people I know would have to find something else to control people with too. My MIL...well, if you do something she doesn't like, or, if she just decides to get mad at you one day(which she picks a different person each day to attack & be mad at), she'll say things like "You can hide behind my back, but you can't God! You can outpower me but you can't God! God's gonna get you for that! Blah Blah!" She can scare the bejeezus outta someone, she talks like God's her hitman or somethin. Like he's gonna come down with a ball bat and beat your brains out if you so much as upset her. *Sorry for that rant*
 

powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
Of course inborn morals kind of invalidates the premise of religion in the first place.

No, it's the stamp of God on people's conscience. SOME morality is inborn, much of it is taught. The United States was built around a spirit of Judeo-Christian ethics. You can see this very fundamental truth in our constitution. "All people are created equally." And you can also read much of the documents written by our framers with some very Christian underpinnings. The greatness of our nation has a foundation of Godly principles. True, it wasn't all perfect, but nothing ever is. And the more I see the foundation of our nation eroding with things like atheism and evolutionary philosophy governing our morals, I see the rapid decline of a nation once built of Godly ethics.

Maybe the people didn't need to die for one religion or another. Maybe the 1000s of years of culture in a society didn't need to be destroyed to make way for Jesus. Maybe atheists aren't immoral and doomed to Hell. Maybe we'll be just fine without religion.

Maybe our world would look like darkness and despair without the inspiration Jesus Christ gave us.. to love our enemies, to forgive others, to give more to people than what they deserve. To feed the hungry, to preach the love of God to them. To live righteously according to the morals of God. Without God, you are blind to what morality is... atheists are immoral because they make up their own. Without an Authority to define what is right and wrong, you are putting a blindfold on and hoping for the best. Atheism will only lead to despair, a tunnel of hopelessness where there is no light at the end.
 
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powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
hmm.. The world would probably be quite dull and boring without religion. We'd have alot less in our history books to read about (being that religion has caused alot of conflict), and whether it's ultimately real or not, without it, there would be alot of people in this world that would lose the only thing they have to hope for, and probably blow their brains out (because there's no concequences that keeps them hanging on).
However, if there was no religion, then a few people I know would have to find something else to control people with too. My MIL...well, if you do something she doesn't like, or, if she just decides to get mad at you one day(which she picks a different person each day to attack & be mad at), she'll say things like "You can hide behind my back, but you can't God! You can outpower me but you can't God! God's gonna get you for that! Blah Blah!" She can scare the bejeezus outta someone, she talks like God's her hitman or somethin. Like he's gonna come down with a ball bat and beat your brains out if you so much as upset her. *Sorry for that rant*

Religion isn't about controlling people. At least, from Christianity's standpoint, people are CONVERTED from their ways of sinfulness. The very essence of conversion is a freewill choice to change and go in another direction. The opposite of control. You have been given a distorted view of what a Christian life is all about. It's about living in love, and kindness towards others. Being a person who walks in the spirit of strength and leaving the world's false "hope" behind. This isn't about control, or anger, or anything of the sort. There are people who pervert Christianity, but people pervert everything.
 
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Morgan01

Well-known member
Do you know how many people died in the Salem witch hunts? And how many actually died in the holocaust?

Well obviously more people died in the holocaust, that's just not what popped into my head first..but what exactly do you mean because noone would have died in either situation if there was no religion.

Of course who am I to say that those things wouldn't happen without religion.. people will always find reasons to cause conflicts and choose sides and hate people.. So I don't know I am sure we would have different history but I'm sure still a lot of tragedies and hate.

I mean it's kind of like saying what if the whole world was just like pleasantville..have you guys seen that movie?
 

Thelema

Well-known member
No, it's the stamp of God on people's conscience. SOME morality is inborn, much of it is taught. The United States was built around a spirit of Judeo-Christian ethics. You can see this very fundamental truth in our constitution. "All people are created equally." And you can also read much of the documents written by our framers with some very Christian underpinnings. The greatness of our nation has a foundation of Godly principles. True, it wasn't all perfect, but nothing ever is. And the more I see the foundation of our nation eroding with things like atheism and evolutionary philosophy governing our morals, I see the rapid decline of a nation once built of Godly ethics.



Maybe our world would look like darkness and despair without the inspiration Jesus Christ gave us.. to love our enemies, to forgive others, to give more to people than what they deserve. To feed the hungry, to preach the love of God to them. To live righteously according to the morals of God. Without God, you are blind to what morality is... atheists are immoral because they make up their own. Without an Authority to define what is right and wrong, you are putting a blindfold on and hoping for the best. Atheism will only lead to despair, a tunnel of hopelessness where there is no light at the end.

The premise of religion is that a human is flawed (God made us flawed for some reason) and that the religion (in this case God) can correct you of your (God given) flaws. In Christianity, this is largely about morals. So if we agree that we know not to kill people and other basics of morality, then why do we need Christianity? I know you're going to say that morals are a lot more complicated than that and that leads me to my next point...

Why add inborn morality about some things and not others? It seems morality is more an evolutionary product than God choosing to add some morals and not others. Society does indeed ad much of our morals, but why do we need to learn from a book when it can be inbred by God?

Parana don't eat each other. Is that God given, or is that an evolutionary product? Why would God need to tell a school of fish that eating one another isn't a good thing?

The founding fathers might have been believers, but they knew the Church had to be kept from meddling in Government and private business. Saying that you speak for God doesn't make you any better than anybody else.

Jesus Christ gave us? What about those tribes that have lived hundreds or thousands of years cut off from other civilization and have been doing just fine? I think meddling with these people and the subsequent destroying of their culture is no good at all.

I think it's funny that missionaries want nudist tribes to cover themselves. To them, they've seen naked people their whole lives and don't even notice it, then here comes these weird person telling them to cover themselves because it's shameful to be naked. That's like people coming to your house and telling you to wear a bag over your head because your face offends God, just because they come from a culture where people wear bags over their heads.
 

powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
Well obviously more people died in the holocaust, that's just not what popped into my head first..but what exactly do you mean because noone would have died in either situation if there was no religion.

About 16 people died in the "Salem witch hunts." SIXTEEN. About the same as the columbine massacre (are you going to blame religion for that too?) And how many died in the holocaust? Over 11 million. If you know your history well, you would know that Hitler despised Christianity, and called it the invention of "sick brains" (how ironic). Hitler was operating under an evolutionary philosophy; that he would take it into his own hands by wiping out the humans he considered inferior. To say that neither would have happened if religion wasn't around is absurd. Religion is mostly a motivator of good.. mostly. Christian philosophy promotes nothing but love and peace.
 
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powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
The premise of religion is that a human is flawed (God made us flawed for some reason) and that the religion (in this case God) can correct you of your (God given) flaws.

Actually, according to the Bible, God originally made us perfect without any flaws. It was only through human disobedience did God punish the world. So, according to the Bible, man created his own destiny of sin and death. Flaws were not given to us by God -- we created them ourselves through disobedience.

In Christianity, this is largely about morals. So if we agree that we know not to kill people and other basics of morality, then why do we need Christianity? I know you're going to say that morals are a lot more complicated than that and that leads me to my next point...

Actually, in Christianity, it is SO MUCH MORE than just morality. It is about salvation. We are spiritually in decline. We have lost God's favor because of our sin, and Christianity is about the redemption Jesus Christ gave us by his death and resurrection. This is what Christianity is truly about, God's gift of Christ, who essentially became "sin for us" and then was slain on the cross as sacrifice for that sin. He took our punishment so we don't have to. That's the core of Christianity, that we are free because of Jesus, and the morality of what is right comes naturally as one converts to Christ. Morality is secondary.

Why add inborn morality about some things and not others? It seems morality is more an evolutionary product than God choosing to add some morals and not others. Society does indeed ad much of our morals, but why do we need to learn from a book when it can be inbred by God?

Well it seems evolutionary only because you choose to see life through those distorted glasses. Evolution is more malleable than clay, which means you can use it to fill in the gap for anything that is a problem in your mind. How did eyes develop? "Well I'm sure evolution did it some how." How did logic develop? "I'm sure evolution did it." What about morality... "I can see how evolution did it." It's more about imagination than reality. You plug it in anywhere. People talk about God of the gaps, "Evolution of the gaps" is much more of a problem.

The Bible says that God's law is written on the hearts of man (I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts."—Hebrews 8:10), but because we are sinful and disobedient by nature, we have to also be guided by God's holy standards. Christianity says we aren't saved by being moral, we are saved by Jesus Christ's sacrifice. And when we accept and live freely in Christ, being moral becomes natural. We no longer want to do bad, and we know the guilt of worldly sin, and strive desperately to avoid it.

Parana don't eat each other. Is that God given, or is that an evolutionary product? Why would God need to tell a school of fish that eating one another isn't a good thing?

Nature is obviously orderly and that is a product of design. It is also corrupt and punished with death and suffering. Evolution-ism is a belief that encompasses moral teaching and world view of life. Just ask Hitler and Mao.

The founding fathers might have been believers, but they knew the Church had to be kept from meddling in Government and private business. Saying that you speak for God doesn't make you any better than anybody else.

They were more concerned about government meddling into Church! Read some of Thomas Jefferson's letters to the church. They (early govt. leaders) were very staunch believers actually, and some in the early government were actually active pastors of a church. Why do you think our Government made all of the special Christian celebrations like Easter and Christmas federal holidays? Because this was our nation's foundations.

Jesus Christ gave us? What about those tribes that have lived hundreds or thousands of years cut off from other civilization and have been doing just fine? I think meddling with these people and the subsequent destroying of their culture is no good at all.

Actually, you should read some of the stories about Christian missionaries going over to these animist tribes (who are lost and destroyed in sin) and actually converting them over to loving and respectable people (check this site). These people are are not "doing just fine" as you say, because they are living in the despair of their own sin. The Bible says that the Gospel will be preached to the entire world.

In evolutionary contexts, it would be just fine to leave these desperate people groups and tribes to die in their lost state, as it is just the business of decaying matter, not taking into account the people for who they are -- their spirits of wanting love and peace. Without much of the Christian missionary work -- giving clean water, clothes, building hospitals and schools (MANY missionaries do this work), these people would simply be lost, forgotten, and never thought of. You think religion is destroying lives -- I see the complete opposite regarding the true Christian disciples; I see a hunger and true desire to LOVE people and give them the truth of what God has done for them.

I think it's funny that missionaries want nudist tribes to cover themselves. To them, they've seen naked people their whole lives and don't even notice it, then here comes these weird person telling them to cover themselves because it's shameful to be naked. That's like people coming to your house and telling you to wear a bag over your head because your face offends God, just because they come from a culture where people wear bags over their heads.

I think you misunderstand the true nature of missionary people. They are people who conform to the tribes and customs of the native people, but they preach Christ's love in this context. You offer your comments in a spirit of derision -- but if you would see what the missionaries are doing, your perception and implication of ridiculousness would change. There are very, very few tribes who even are complete nudists -- most have some sort of covering, no matter how small already. But the point is to preach Christ's love in the context of their culture. God doesn't require that people leave their culture to come to Him.

---1 Corinthians 9:19-23:

""For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.""
 
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bleach

Banned
No, it's the stamp of God on people's conscience. SOME morality is inborn, much of it is taught. The United States was built around a spirit of Judeo-Christian ethics.

Give some examples.

The American revolutionaries were mainly influenced by French and English Enlightenment philosophers -- Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes, amongst others. That's one of the most basic facts of US history. Most of their ideas are totally incongruent with Christ's.

were you homeschooled by the way?
 
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Thelema

Well-known member
Actually, according to the Bible, God originally made us perfect without any flaws. It was only through human disobedience did God punish the world. So, according to the Bible, man created his own destiny of sin and death. Flaws were not given to us by God -- we created them ourselves through disobedience.


Actually, in Christianity, it is SO MUCH MORE than just morality. It is about salvation. We are spiritually in decline. We have lost God's favor because of our sin, and Christianity is about the redemption Jesus Christ gave us by his death and resurrection. This is what Christianity is truly about, God's gift of Christ, who essentially became "sin for us" and then was slain on the cross as sacrifice for that sin. He took our punishment so we don't have to. That's the core of Christianity, that we are free because of Jesus, and the morality of what is right comes naturally as one converts to Christ. Morality is secondary.



Well it seems evolutionary only because you choose to see life through those distorted glasses. Evolution is more malleable than clay, which means you can use it to fill in the gap for anything that is a problem in your mind. How did eyes develop? "Well I'm sure evolution did it some how." How did logic develop? "I'm sure evolution did it." What about morality... "I can see how evolution did it." It's more about imagination than reality. You plug it in anywhere. People talk about God of the gaps, "Evolution of the gaps" is much more of a problem.

The Bible says that God's law is written on the hearts of man (I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts."—Hebrews 8:10), but because we are sinful and disobedient by nature, we have to also be guided by God's holy standards. Christianity says we aren't saved by being moral, we are saved by Jesus Christ's sacrifice. And when we accept and live freely in Christ, being moral becomes natural. We no longer want to do bad, and we know the guilt of worldly sin, and strive desperately to avoid it.



Nature is obviously orderly and that is a product of design. It is also corrupt and punished with death and suffering. Evolution-ism is a belief that encompasses moral teaching and world view of life. Just ask Hitler and Mao.



They were more concerned about government meddling into Church! Read some of Thomas Jefferson's letters to the church. They (early govt. leaders) were very staunch believers actually, and some in the early government were actually active pastors of a church. Why do you think our Government made all of the special Christian celebrations like Easter and Christmas federal holidays? Because this was our nation's foundations.



Actually, you should read some of the stories about Christian missionaries going over to these animist tribes (who are lost and destroyed in sin) and actually converting them over to loving and respectable people (check this site). These people are are not "doing just fine" as you say, because they are living in the despair of their own sin. The Bible says that the Gospel will be preached to the entire world.

In evolutionary contexts, it would be just fine to leave these desperate people groups and tribes to die in their lost state, as it is just the business of decaying matter, not taking into account the people for who they are -- their spirits of wanting love and peace. Without much of the Christian missionary work -- giving clean water, clothes, building hospitals and schools (MANY missionaries do this work), these people would simply be lost, forgotten, and never thought of. You think religion is destroying lives -- I see the complete opposite regarding the true Christian disciples; I see a hunger and true desire to LOVE people and give them the truth of what God has done for them.



I think you misunderstand the true nature of missionary people. They are people who conform to the tribes and customs of the native people, but they preach Christ's love in this context. You offer your comments in a spirit of derision -- but if you would see what the missionaries are doing, your perception and implication of ridiculousness would change. There are very, very few tribes who even are complete nudists -- most have some sort of covering, no matter how small already. But the point is to preach Christ's love in the context of their culture. God doesn't require that people leave their culture to come to Him.

---1 Corinthians 9:19-23:

""For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.""

Well perfect means without a defect, so obviously a perfect being cannot act imperfectly. We can't create our flaws, we are born with them, they are God given (this is using what I imagine would be your definition of flawed, I don't believe we're flawed at all). Therefore God created a flawed being and was angered by our being flawed (?)

Salvation is distinct from morality? Isn't your idea of salvation acting in a moral way to your neighbor? How can you be immoral and be truly Christian? (again, we disagree on what's moral, but I'm using your definition)

In fact, the definition of salvation (redemption, same thing) is "the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil." Is that not morality?

Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with morals. Evolution is a scientific theory which explains life's diversity on Earth. Period. It's as if you're telling me that the theory of a spherical earth is a religious doctrine.

Evolution has an almost universal scientific consensus. You only want to attack science because it clashes with your religious beliefs, but that's no good (I think). I know when you decide that the Bible is all you need you just want to shut your eyes and cover your ears, but scientists don't just support willy nilly theories. There's so much evidence that has piled up and it all points one way and it just so happens it's not toward creationism. If there is ever evidence pointing to creationism, you can bet that scientists will reevaluate, but so far none exists. If God wants evolution to go away, then he needs to stop giving scientists so much overwhelming evidence for it.

The evolutionary usefulness of eyes and not killing other people is a no brainer. Imagine trying to send a group of blind people to hunt down a mastodon. Imagine what the population of our species would be if everyone killed other people for no particular reason. These two things work so well that many many species share (and shared long before we were around)the same features.

If a tribe willfully decides to reject outside contact, it's immoral to force your culture on to them. They may have been living there happily for hundreds of years, it's not our place to tell them that they can't have their own beliefs, even if you don't agree with them.

Missionaries do do a lot of good around the World, but in the past there have been instances of the destroying of people's culture because they were happy with the way they were.

Telling a tribe that being naked is immoral is ridiculous. It's a direct instance of imposing your culture on to them. I'm a believer in cultural relativism.
 
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Nervous

Well-known member
how many died in the holocaust? Over 11 million.

How do you know this?

If you know your history well, you would know that Hitler despised Christianity, and called it the invention of "sick brains" (how ironic).

Xianity is the invention of sick brains. All three of the Abrahamic religion are.

Hitler was operating under an evolutionary philosophy

Indeed. Do you know anything about evolution?

Christian philosophy promotes nothing but love and peace.

Yeah right:rolleyes:

The Bible has Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac, God flooding the world, God punishing Adam and Eve for being lustful, many other examples.
 

powerfulthoughts

Well-known member
Give some examples.

The American revolutionaries were mainly influenced by French and English Enlightenment philosophers -- Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes, amongst others. That's one of the most basic facts of US history. Most of their ideas are totally incongruent with Christ's.

were you homeschooled by the way?

No, were you? A stupid question, to be sure.
 
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