my working life or lack thereof, a cautionary tale

[Ms Cloud]

I've always been cringingly sensitive to and pathetically reliant on what others have thought of me; the source of my dysfunction, I suspect. It's wired in deep. But I'm trying to overcome it. I'm trying to be myself.

I think philosophy is your friend here (as opposed to psychology). You can use your analytical mind to figure out what life really is, from first principles. When you explore the nature of reality, you learn to discard a lot of the messages that abound out there, as being mere inventions. So much of what people accept as "true" is in fact arbitrary, and subjective as hell. It can't be expected to work for everybody. You've got to find your own truth, it's the only way to go.

Not trying to give you "answers" here... Just a casual first impression that I have of you, which is that you're a naturally philosophical person who has not yet given herself a chance to question the world around her-- having been too busy questioning herself. If you could only turn your analytical x-rays outward instead of inward, you'd find that you've been giving the world way too much credit as being "right", making yourself look "wrong" in comparison.

Also, a lot of my identity was tied up with my job. A coder, that's what I was, and people respected that (even if they thought it was geeky). Without the job, I don't know who am I. And it's not like I had any real non-work interests or talents to fall back on. There's nothing left to respect.

Your identity shines through in your posts. It's all there. Your true identity is not your job, or your talents, or your interests-- it's what you find when you strip all that away. It's what you are at your core, when there's nothing to hide behind. It's who you are relative to the universe, not to some random society that you were born into.

I hope you'll forgive the grandiose ramblings... I have a "true identity" too, and it's terribly full of itself, lol.

 

[coyote]

I think philosophy is your friend here (as opposed to psychology). You can use your analytical mind to figure out what life really is, from first principles. When you explore the nature of reality, you learn to discard a lot of the messages that abound out there, as being mere inventions. So much of what people accept as "true" is in fact arbitrary, and subjective as hell. It can't be expected to work for everybody. You've got to find your own truth, it's the only way to go.

Not trying to give you "answers" here... Just a casual first impression that I have of you, which is that you're a naturally philosophical person who has not yet given herself a chance to question the world around her-- having been too busy questioning herself. If you could only turn your analytical x-rays outward instead of inward, you'd find that you've been giving the world way too much credit as being "right", making yourself look "wrong" in comparison.

Your identity shines through in your posts. It's all there. Your true identity is not your job, or your talents, or your interests-- it's what you find when you strip all that away. It's what you are at your core, when there's nothing to hide behind. It's who you are relative to the universe, not to some random society that you were born into.

I hope you'll forgive the grandiose ramblings... I have a "true identity" too, and it's terribly full of itself, lol.

 

[aftermidnight]

As much as I'd like to think otherwise, I have to agree with Aletheia: your job is a lot of who you are. It takes up about 40% of your waking life between the ages of ~20-65, and it says a lot about who you are (if you ask a person about himself, I bet one of the first things he'd tell you is what he does for a living). And if you're miserable at work, then you'll likely also be at least a bit miserable outside of work too.

I can only begin to imagine Aletheia's pain. Not having a calling, be it a career or otherwise, is rough.

 

[DoodlebugSA]

Hi,

I too feel that I am stuck in a rut and can't escape. I have a number of university degrees but due to the fact that I cannot communicate properly with people I don't come accross well in an interview situation - God knows I try my best. I have been working for family for a couple of years in a secretarial position which I hate. I recently had to sell my car (which is the only thing I ever bought myself) and my dad is buying a new one for me to drive. I wish I was "normal" and could just get on with life. I am so tired of the same thing over and over every day.

Sorry for being such a downer but I have had a dreadful week. I suppose the only thing to do is to get up and move on but that would require too much energy....

 

[Darryl]

Darryl, I have had more help than you could possibly imagine. (What do you think I've spent the past 12 years doing?? )

I realize that you're trying to help, but please don't patronize me.

Sorry for caring, won't happen again!

 

[Aletheia]

Thank you for sharing your story with us.

Thank you for sharing yours with me. I'm so sorry you've been having such a hard time. But it does make me feel less alone.

I am unemployed and have not been able to get out of this rut for quite some time.

And yet from what I've read, you do all sorts of other worthwhile things with your time.

I am exactly where I am supposed to be.

Why do you say this?

 

[Aletheia]

We have to stay true to who we are, and not let the expectations of others...make us feel like we are failing.

I'm feeling too space cadet ditzy tonight to find the words for this, but I do feel intensely that this is the key: staying true to ourselves. Or becoming true in the first place. To be less alienated from the world we need to be less alienated from ourselves.

You do have a different perspective on all this than most of us. I also wonder why that is so.

Yes, tell us your secret, Ms Cloud. Where did you find the courage to be you?

I know it is not much, but you really are not alone in all this.

It is much, it is much much, it is all the difference in the world.

 

[Aletheia]

I think philosophy is your friend here...

Thank you. Truly. Thank you.

That's one of the most observant, insightful and liberating things I've ever read.

 

[aftermidnight]

Hi,

I too feel that I am stuck in a rut and can't escape. I have a number of university degrees but due to the fact that I cannot communicate properly with people I don't come accross well in an interview situation - God knows I try my best. I have been working for family for a couple of years in a secretarial position which I hate. I recently had to sell my car (which is the only thing I ever bought myself) and my dad is buying a new one for me to drive. I wish I was "normal" and could just get on with life. I am so tired of the same thing over and over every day.

Sorry for being such a downer but I have had a dreadful week. I suppose the only thing to do is to get up and move on but that would require too much energy....

Wouldn't it be awesome if employers actively looked for introverts? Like, really, do you need to have excellent verbal communication abilities for every single job? And an interview is only so representative of how good your communication abilities are anyway - it's really just a show of how confident and how quick-on-your-feet you are in a highly stressful situation.

Out of curiosity, what are you interested in (i.e. what are your degrees in)?

 

[Aletheia]

If you could only turn your analytical x-rays outward instead of inward, you'd find that you've been giving the world way too much credit as being "right", making yourself look "wrong" in comparison.

This bit is particularly astute.

 

[aftermidnight]

If only it were that easy...

 

[Aletheia]

I had a revelation and realized that I'd be much happier being free from any careers

I admire your clear-sightedness. I wish I'd been that wise.

There's no shame in being a part of the working class.

There absolutely is not.

In California, I saw a lot of Latino men bussing tables and washing cars, jobs most white men would consider "beneath them". Someone explained to me that in Latino culture, looking after your family and putting food on the table is what makes you a man, not your job title.

Sadly, I've always found work difficult, even the part-time "working class" jobs I had as a teenager.

we have time to enjoy our simple pleasures in life, and a great deal less stress and responsibility on our shoulders. I'm enjoying it, anyway.

I realize that I have one great asset: time.

 

[Aletheia]

you're willing to work for free/for little at first, to 'prove yourself', for the first 2 weeks or so

I've always seen probationary periods as worthwhile. What does an interview prove? It proves you're good at interviews, not necessarily the job. A "proving" period ensures you're a good fit for the job. And also ensures that the job is a good fit for you.

sometimes caring for family members...

I'm living with my ageing father now, and taking care of him makes me feel like I'm not a complete waste of air.

What about rich people? They don't have 'jobs' either, in many cases!!

Ha ha, yes the idle rich! I only wish I was.

more than 4 or 5 hours behind computer a day can cause depression

That doesn't surprise me.

and yeah, find professional help and/or support group/s if you might need it...

Oh I have. The fact that I've been struggling with this, with plenty of help, for the past 12 years, is what has made me realize that I need to try something new, a new way of looking at life altogether.

 

[aftermidnight]

In California, I saw a lot of Latino men bussing tables and washing cars, jobs most white men would consider "beneath them". Someone explained to me that in Latino culture, looking after your family and putting food on the table is what makes you a man, not your job title.

It's a nice thought. Too bad it's hard to break from the pressures our culture puts on us. The reality is, how much money you make, in our culture, says a lot about your worthiness to others. If you make a good amount of money, you are respected by family, friends, and others. If I had a low-paying job, I would probably be happy, but in the back of my mind would be a feeling of disappointment and a lack of fulfillment, knowing that I could be making a lot more money (and, therefore, feeling more successful and worthy to society).

I can learn that having nice, expensive things doesn't make me any happier, but it's not nearly as easy to convince myself that having a high-paying job will not make others think highly of me. There's no denying that most people consider people who make a lot of money more respectable and more valuable to society. The pressure is even greater for guys, as it is also well known that the more a man makes, the more attractive he will be to women.

For me to cope with having a low-paying job, I'd have to learn not to care what others think of me. If that were easy, a social anxiety forum would not exist - no one would have social anxiety.

 

[Aletheia]

a feeling of disappointment and a lack of fulfillment

You're right. I tried data entry, and this absolutely killed me.

I think people should be awarded respect if they do any job well, but I find it hard to apply this belief to myself. I would love to be able to take pride in whatever I turned my hand to, but society's expectations and my own don't make that easy.

For me to cope with having a low-paying job, I'd have to learn not to care what others think of me.

Oh yeah, it's not the money I miss, it's the respect.

 

[Silatuyok]

It's a nice thought. Too bad it's hard to break from the pressures our culture puts on us. The reality is, how much money you make, in our culture, says a lot about your worthiness to others. If you make a good amount of money, you are respected by family, friends, and others. If I had a low-paying job, I would probably be happy, but in the back of my mind would be a feeling of disappointment and a lack of fulfillment, knowing that I could be making a lot more money (and, therefore, feeling more successful and worthy to society).

I can learn that having nice, expensive things doesn't make me any happier, but it's not nearly as easy to convince myself that having a high-paying job will not make others think highly of me. There's no denying that most people consider people who make a lot of money more respectable and more valuable to society. The pressure is even greater for guys, as it is also well known that the more a man makes, the more attractive he will be to women.

For me to cope with having a low-paying job, I'd have to learn not to care what others think of me. If that were easy, a social anxiety forum would not exist - no one would have social anxiety.

I understand this completely. Even though I'm very happy now with my low-paying job, it took me months to finally let go of the idea of becoming a veterinarian, or even just the idea of having a career in something. When I had been working hard preparing to apply to vet school, everyone I knew was very supportive, some people were even referring to me as a veterinarian (which I didn't like), and I felt like everyone expected me to do something big with it, mostly because I had built it up so big in my mind and had plans for great things. So....when I decided not to, it was extremely hard to get over thinking that I was a failure in everybody's eyes. I felt like they would think I wasn't living up to my full potential. I'm sure some people probably do think that about me. But the one's who matter most are thrilled to see how happy I am these days.

I'm not sure how I came to stop worrying over what other people would think, when I finally shrugged off all the societal pressures concerning success and careers. I think a big part of it came from finding my niche---I was hired on by an animal shelter, in a job that is perfect for me, surrounded by some really great people (that I usually admire from a distance, lol), and that I can be really proud of telling people about when I meet them.

I think it is all about finding out where you belong, whether or not this is in a high-paying corporate office job, or biking to your job bussing tables at a cute little cafe somewhere close to home. When you are doing something that truly suits you, you can be proud of it no matter how much it pays.

 

[coyote]

...it would be wonderful to find other people with similar stories...

i feel compelled to respond to this thread

but i have had great difficulty distilling my thoughts into something readable

there's so much for me to talk about, but to give anything meaning, i have to keep going further and further back in time and bring in endless characters and side drama, until it becomes too overwhelming to think about

so i'm just gonna start typing....

[begin stream of consciousness]

so basically, i can definitely relate to your story

i had a career - it was something i was actually good at

although it was always just supposed to be "just a day job"

something to make a living and pay the bills while i pursued my real interests

but, of course, day-to-day life got in the way of doing the things i really wanted to do

and you have to pay for all the stuff

rent, car payments, utilities, credit card biils, furniture, clothes, mortgage payments, student loans, more car payments, insurance, food, drink, etc.

so when you're married, and someone else is depending on you, it's hard to shirk responsibility

so you go to work, and you do your job

and if you do it well, people notice that, and they tempt you with better positions with more money to pay for all the stuff, and it makes you feel good that they think so highly of you

so you move up

only to find that that sucks more of your time and energy away from pursuing your own interests

so to make up for that, you distract yourself with other things - things that cost money

so when they tempt you with another, better position, you take that, too

and the next position

and the next

and pretty soon you've forgotten what you had started out to do with your life

but you have a good career, you have status, a nice house, a nice yard, a few cars, some other fun toys, vacations, etc....

but in spite of all that you have, you don't have the things in your life that you started out to get

in spite of everything you've achieved, you haven't achieved the things you started out to achieve

and you feel like all the people in your life don't know what you're really all about

and so it may all look so wonderful from the outside, but to you it's all meaningless

so you throw it all away

in an attempt to regain your sanity

that's supposed to be noble, but when you have so little self-worth, it's hard to present yourself to the world as anything less than what you once were, even if that's not what you wanted to be

people respected that person

how can you expect them to respect the person you've now become?

someone with nothing but a bunch of unfulfilled dreams

so it's easier to hide from the world

and pretend you don't have those dreams

and maybe even pretend you don't have that past

and all the people who were in it - the people you wanted to have see the real you in the first place - they're all gone, too

so there's no real point in even doing what you wanted to do to begin with

now where does that leave you?

 

[mrhope2011]

Avoidance is that state of mind where we feel nothing...neither painful fear and anxiety nor true happiness.

It just feels numb but it feels good.

It feels cozy for now but when we wake up the next day there is that little voice in the back of your head that something doesn't feel alright.

I tricked myself into this and have been avoiding my fears for about 2 years.

While we are in school/college/univ it doesn't feel that bad because we are feeling that there is some structure and schedule in your life and we are supposed to do it anyway.

As soon as that phase is over, it just feel like an abyss.

 

[Aletheia]

Not having a calling, be it a career or otherwise, is rough.

A vocation is what I most envy in others.

 

[Darryl]

i feel compelled to respond to this thread

but i have had great difficulty distilling my thoughts into something readable

there's so much for me to talk about, but to give anything meaning, i have to keep going further and further back in time and bring in endless characters and side drama, until it becomes too overwhelming to think about

so i'm just gonna start typing....

[begin stream of consciousness]

so basically, i can definitely relate to your story

i had a career - it was something i was actually good at

although it was always just supposed to be "just a day job"

something to make a living and pay the bills while i pursued my real interests

but, of course, day-to-day life got in the way of doing the things i really wanted to do

and you have to pay for all the stuff

rent, car payments, utilities, credit card biils, furniture, clothes, mortgage payments, student loans, more car payments, insurance, food, drink, etc.

so when you're married, and someone else is depending on you, it's hard to shirk responsibility

so you go to work, and you do your job

and if you do it well, people notice that, and they tempt you with better positions with more money to pay for all the stuff, and it makes you feel good that they think so highly of you

so you move up

only to find that that sucks more of your time and energy away from pursuing your own interests

so to make up for that, you distract yourself with other things - things that cost money

so when they tempt you with another, better position, you take that, too

and the next position

and the next

and pretty soon you've forgotten what you had started out to do with your life

but you have a good career, you have status, a nice house, a nice yard, a few cars, some other fun toys, vacations, etc....

but in spite of all that you have, you don't have the things in your life that you started out to get

in spite of everything you've achieved, you haven't achieved the things you started out to achieve

and you feel like all the people in your life don't know what you're really all about

and so it may all look so wonderful from the outside, but to you it's all meaningless

so you throw it all away

in an attempt to regain your sanity

that's supposed to be noble, but when you have so little self-worth, it's hard to present yourself to the world as anything less than what you once were, even if that's not what you wanted to be

people respected that person

how can you expect them to respect the person you've now become?

someone with nothing but a bunch of unfulfilled dreams

so it's easier to hide from the world

and pretend you don't have those dreams

and maybe even pretend you don't have that past

and all the people who were in it - the people you wanted to have see the real you in the first place - they're all gone, too

so there's no real point in even doing what you wanted to do to begin with

now where does that leave you?

The more I buy the more I'm brought.
The more I'm brought the less I cost.
Joe Pug