I Have a Serious Problem With Romance

I would like to keep this thread civil. I have reached the point where I cannot continue to improve my social phobia unless I start discussing romantic matters, and so I am beginning, although I realize this may not be popular here. I am willing to hear your criticisms and I will try my best to respond cooly. Please keep in mind this is a very sensitive subject, and I would like constructive criticism.

Thanks.


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I am devestated by what I perceive as failures with women. I sometimes get to the point of feeling semi-suicidal about these failures. You see, I basicaly feel incompetent as a man.


1. I am very afraid of being humiliated by women.

I don't want to be toyed with, used, or otherwise disrespected. When this happened in the past, I felt destroyed, worthless, and undeserving of life. It first began in 9th grade. I asked out an attractive girl at a sports event and when she used and then dropped me, I was crushed. Subsequent women played with me brutaly until high-school was over. That's when I started sticking up for myself. It's my goal never to be humiliated like that again.


2. I believe that women don't like me, because they don't respect me, and that they don't respect me because I am not good enough.

I was the nicest guy to more women then I could count on my hands during highschool. I wasn't simply after sex, I wanted a girlfriend. But I wasn't good enough for them, because there was something wrong with me that made them lose respect for me, and treat me like a toy for their amusement. While failures with women have resulted from my inadvertantly insulting them, there are only a few such cases (like literaly 3 or 4). On the other hand there are dozens of cases of women who dated me once, and then dumped me. Most of these never even hooked up, and when they did I rarely pushed them past their limits. You see, I was usualy too scared to try that until two years ago. Its true that many of these girls I wanted sexualy more than romanticaly, but there were others whom I wanted to date, sex was not even part of the equation. Yet, these girls were the ones that trashed me the worst.


3. I believe that most women are 'out to get me'.

Perhaps I am paranoid, but I am firmly convinced that women in general would like to turn me into a complete loser, so they can secretly laugh at me behind my back, and make me their puppet. I even believe that women on this site are doing this to me, and that they don't believe half of the stuff they tell me. I don't think women want me to be successful, they want me to suffer and want to use me as a punching bag for their anger and insecurities. I just know that once they have managed to transform me into a sucker, some woman will call me a "pathetic loser who can't get any". I will then be their public laughing stock. I've seen them make such comments to and about other men. In this event, my self-esteem would be completely crushed and I would be destroyed.


4. I believe that women who like me will hook up on the first date, and that the rest either don't like me, or are playing games.

Of the dozens of women I have ever dated (even once), only a handful agreed to see me again after a first date with no action (not neccessarily sex). Some of these girls I wanted to date, some I wanted sex with, some I didn't know what I wanted. Sometimes I put moves on them, but usualy I never got the chance. Frequently in the past I had no intention of puting any moves on them. Even worse, the girls who did agree to see me again after not hooking up, were usualy interested in taking advantage of me. Once they got bored playing games and stringing me along (remember I didn't always put moves on them), they then got rid of me too. So, as you can see, all ended up exactly the same: they trashed me and didn't look back.


5. I believe that most women enjoy treating men they aren't interest in, with cruelty and sadism. [IM NOT SAYING THIS IS TRUE, ITS JUST MY OPINION FROM MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES!!!!!]

Women seem to have a very low opinion of men with romantic shortcomings. If a girl detects a lack of confidence, assertiveness, self-respect, or dominance, in my behavior, then she will change her opinion of me. Instantly I become a play-toy, although she originaly saw me as a potential lover or boyfriend. Once demoted to this lowly position, she will then proceed to abuse and tease me, and finaly get rid of me like trash. On numerous occasions I have heard women talking shit about guys with these shortcommings, so its not only some women who are like this, but most of them.


I hope this post wasn't offensive to anyone. I am not sure these beliefs of mine are sane and I would like help. At the very least, I will have a better idea if my thinking is correct. Again, I am willing to listen to your criticisms.
 
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This is actually a good post. I really hope you get some constructive feedback from some of the women here.
Serafina comes to mind. Also hope some of the women here do not trash this.
 
This is actually a good post. I really hope you get some constructive feedback from some of the women here.
Serafina comes to mind. Also hope some of the women here do not trash this.

They will. It's been fun red-ski. But Im over the other issues of my social phobia now. This is a major issue that has to be resolved and if it can't be resolved then my time here is up.
 

Jake123

Banned
Phobo your ability to write endless paragraphs in everything you post never ceases to amaze me...
 

Ebbe

Well-known member
....Subsequent women played with me brutaly until high-school was over...
...treat me like a toy for their amusement...
...or are playing games...
...were usualy interested in taking advantage of me. Once they got bored playing games and stringing me along (remember I didn't always put moves on them), they then got rid of me too...
...Instantly I become a play-toy, although she originaly saw me as a potential lover or boyfriend. Once demoted to this lowly position, she will then proceed to abuse and tease me, and finaly get rid of me like trash...

I am wondering if these women were literally playing with you (because they knew they didn't want you, but made you do stuff because they were demon-like sadists), or that they just weren't sure about the relationship and didn't want to run the risk of losing you before they had made up their minds.
Also, should I read "getting rid of someone like trash" as "breaking up with someone"?
I am just saying, you are really victimising yourself in this post by using those specific turns of phrase.

I hope that didn't come out too harsh. I will try to make another reply to your entire post, but as Jake just mentioned as well, it is quite a bit of text. I am just not sure where to start :p
 

Hellhound

Super Moderator
I won't deny that there's girls who can be bitchy and superficial like that.. They make the female specie look bad... -.-
It's understandable that you don't trust girls after the things you've gone through... but not all girls are like that, you just were not too lucky and met the wrong people, that's all.
 
Hi Ebbe,

I am wondering if these women were literally playing with you (because they knew they didn't want you, but made you do stuff because they were demon-like sadists), or that they just weren't sure about the relationship and didn't want to run the risk of losing you before they had made up their minds.

They thought I was a pathetic joke and were playing games for fun. In a few instances other people even told me so, and sometimes it was just obvious in retrospect. Now, two girls did play games because of fear of losing me, but I got both of them because I could see their game. One of them I stuck out, and the other I told not to call me again until she was ready to be more than just friends. These were my finest moments actualy. :D


Also, should I read "getting rid of someone like trash" as "breaking up with someone"?

No, it means cutting me off after using my attention to build up their egos. If they didnt like me they could have avoided me from the beginning. But instead they hung out, knowing FULL WELL they weren't realy interested, just so they could use my attention to feel attractive. (im very good looking). I even know a few girls who admit to this sort of behavior.

I am just saying, you are really victimising yourself in this post by using those specific turns of phrase.

I am a victim. Many women victimize me because I am sick and it makes me pathetic and vulnerable to their malevolent whims.

I hope that didn't come out too harsh. I will try to make another reply to your entire post, but as Jake just mentioned as well, it is quite a bit of text. I am just not sure where to start :p

No worries mate.
 
I won't deny that there's girls who can be bitchy and superficial like that.. They make the female specie look bad... -.-
It's understandable that you don't trust girls after the things you've gone through... but not all girls are like that, you just were not too lucky and met the wrong people, that's all.


Why do they all act like that then? Every single one of them is like that so far in my experience. Some are realy bad and will string me on for weeks (that is, if given the chance), and others just use me for a few days. It doesnt matter, so long as I am being used to make them feel good. Even one experience lasting only a few minutes is enough to ruin myself-esteem. For instance, one time a girl was supposed to hang out with me downtown, and when we got there she decided to change her mind and go back to campus. When we got close to her stop, the bitch informed me that she and her friends were ditching me and I should get off at my stop. I was so angry and a female friend later told me I shouldn't have taken that. I got revenge on her though. I ended up seeing her on two more occasions after that but she was still playing around sort of. So on the third time I stood up her calls and she was royaly pissed about it the next time I saw her around. Haha.
 
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Hellhound

Super Moderator
Why do they all act like that then? Every single one of them is like that so far in my experience. Some are realy bad and will string me on for weeks (that is, if given the chance), and others just use me for a few days. It doesnt matter, so long as I am being used to make them feel good. Even one experience lasting only a few minutes is enough to ruin myself-esteem. For instance, one time a girl was supposed to hang out with me downtown, and when we got there she decided to change her mind and go back to campus. When we got close to her stop, the bitch informed me that she and her friends were ditching me and I should get off at my stop. I was so angry and a female friend later told me I shouldn't have taken that. I got revenge on her though. I ended up seeing her on two more occasions after that but she was still playing around sort of. So on the third time I stood up her calls and she was royaly pissed about it the next time I saw her around. Haha.

Well.. These girls you met don't seem serious enough to have any healthy relationship at all... I know a girl like that, is not a friend of mine, i know her because a close friend of mine talked to me about her. She is either abusive or abused. if you don't treat her like crap, she treats you like crap and uses you. Maybe these girls were like her.. Totally f***ed up, maybe self centered or all the opposite (and they use others to feel better with themseves). Sadly, you just met the bad side of the female specie... that's why you think that all of them are bitchy. But it's not true.. not all of them are like that. I used to think that all guys were disrespectful pigs, because i had the bad luck of meeting really bad people in the past... That first impression affected the way i thought about guys and i generalized, thinking that ALL of them would hurt and use me. Maybe that happened to you now and that's why you think all girls are bad?

Sorry if i don't make sense :p
 
Why do they all act like that then? Every single one of them is like that so far in my experience. Some are realy bad and will string me on for weeks (that is, if given the chance), and others just use me for a few days. It doesnt matter, so long as I am being used to make them feel good. Even one experience lasting only a few minutes is enough to ruin myself-esteem. For instance, one time a girl was supposed to hang out with me downtown, and when we got there she decided to change her mind and go back to campus. When we got close to her stop, the bitch informed me that she and her friends were ditching me and I should get off at my stop. I was so angry and a female friend later told me I shouldn't have taken that. I got revenge on her though. I ended up seeing her on two more occasions after that but she was still playing around sort of. So on the third time I stood up her calls and she was royaly pissed about it the next time I saw her around. Haha.

It seems to me like you're impression that all women are like this stems from a few things- first, you seem to seek out women that are likely to use and manipulate you, and secondly, you let them. What I mean is that your self esteem makes it so that you must seem like an easy target to people (especially women) that like to take advantage of others and walk all over them, and your feeling that you're not "worth" more makes it so that you don't stand up for yourself in the way that you should. If you had more self respect, you wouldn't even give these people the time of day, and you would attract people that respect themselves and you as well.
 
...you wouldn't even give these people the time of day, and you would attract people that respect themselves and you as well.
You make solid arguments but how does all of this reflect on the people, women,
in this case which see someone they can take advantage of
and knowingly do so.

Yes, I know, self respect is important but in my world just because
someone has low self respect and self esteem does not give me the right
to treat then poorly and abuse them.

Ladies, I am sorry but this is a very recurring pattern I see in others
and have experienced myself with women.

Should I feel bad for those women and respect them? I think not.

This I believe is where Phobo's misogyny stems from and honestly
I am getting tired of him being bashed. He might be blunt, he might write
long posts, he is no English scholar and maybe does not articulate well.
He is just here for help.
 
Yes, I know, self respect is important but in my world just because
someone has low self respect and self esteem does not give me the right
to treat then poorly and abuse them.

I agree that low self respect and low self esteem doesn't give people the right to treat them badly... and I think it's happened to most people at this site because I think we all have these kinds of issues in some form or another.

It is absolutely sickening to me that there are people that take advantage rather than trying to help a person feel better... and I'm not trying to pass judgment on Phobo or anyone else here.

It just seems like a cycle that can be impossible to break... you have low self esteem, so people treat you poorly, thus making your self esteem even worse. My point is that people do take you at your own worth, so that what you think of yourself ends up being what others will think of you too, at least most of the time. If you can find a way to feel better about yourself, then others will reflect back and give you the respect that you find yourself worthy of.
 
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tired_of_starting_again

Well-known member
I'm a woman & you didn't offend me in the least.

I have never been in a romantic relationship because they terrify me, deep down I'd like to have one, but am so turned off by all the drama & pain they cause.
I have many of the same feeling you have towards the opposite sex.
I feel that none of the "good guys" would ever like or want be & I'd only attract the shallow losers who would use me.
God only knows if I'll ever have one, if so it will be a looooong time from now.
 

Ebbe

Well-known member
Ok, I am making an attempt to answer your entire post, which I am afraid is going to be a Herculean task, because I am going to reread everything I type several times :)

First of all, even though I am a woman, I obviously don't speak for my entire sex. Maybe all other women ARE manipulative sadists, but I have a sneaking suspicion that your opinion might be a little bit clouded by (sexual?) frustrations.
Also, I am not completely sure about the rules of the American dating system, so I might be a little off about some things.


I am devestated by what I perceive as failures with women. I sometimes get to the point of feeling semi-suicidal about these failures. You see, I basicaly feel incompetent as a man.

1. I am very afraid of being humiliated by women.

I don't want to be toyed with, used, or otherwise disrespected. When this happened in the past, I felt destroyed, worthless, and undeserving of life. It first began in 9th grade. I asked out an attractive girl at a sports event and when she used and then dropped me, I was crushed. Subsequent women played with me brutaly until high-school was over. That's when I started sticking up for myself. It's my goal never to be humiliated like that again.

As I implied in my previous post, I can't imagine that all of these women "played with you". Even if a few did, I am sure that most of them had no intention of hurting or humiliating you in any way.

It seems like you are being a bit hard on these girls. It seems like you think that they should either have a relationship with you and let you decide when it is over, OR they are evil.

To give you an idea of what it is like from the other side: When I was a teenager, I had no idea how to deal with boys that were attracted to me, but whom I wasn't attracted to. What happened several times, was that I didn't want to say straight out how I felt, because I was afraid of hurting their feelings and being viewed as a bitch. So I would decline any offers of dates, I would imply that I wasn't interested, but I would still be friendly to them. Then after a while, if they would still show interest, I would be forced to tell them in more harsh terms that I wasn't interested, which DID hurt their feelings and DID make them view me as a bitch (which I still don't find fair). I know now that I did not handle those situations perfectly, but I obviously didn't know then. Maybe the girls in your highschool were equally unsure on how to handle.

2. I believe that women don't like me, because they don't respect me, and that they don't respect me because I am not good enough.

I was the nicest guy to more women then I could count on my hands during highschool. I wasn't simply after sex, I wanted a girlfriend. But I wasn't good enough for them, because there was something wrong with me that made them lose respect for me, and treat me like a toy for their amusement. While failures with women have resulted from my inadvertantly insulting them, there are only a few such cases (like literaly 3 or 4). On the other hand there are dozens of cases of women who dated me once, and then dumped me. Most of these never even hooked up, and when they did I rarely pushed them past their limits. You see, I was usualy too scared to try that until two years ago. Its true that many of these girls I wanted sexualy more than romanticaly, but there were others whom I wanted to date, sex was not even part of the equation. Yet, these girls were the ones that trashed me the worst.

Having a relationship or sex is not an automatic reward for being nice.
Even though it really sucks for you, if they didn't think you were the right guy for them, that is not really something you can blame them for. The fact that they wanted to go on a date with you, shows that they were initially interested.

It has happened to me that I met a guy in a bar, talked to him for a while (I can talk when I am drunk) and was considering taking him home. After talking a while longer he asked me out on a date, which I accepted. I then decided not to take him home, but wait until the end of the date first. Once on the date I found out that he wasn't as interesting or attractive as I had thought, and I decided to just go home alone.
I think you can extract the moral of this story yourself.

If you want more than sex, you will just have to wait a little longer. We all have/had to.

3. I believe that most women are 'out to get me'.

Perhaps I am paranoid, but I am firmly convinced that women in general would like to turn me into a complete loser, so they can secretly laugh at me behind my back, and make me their puppet. I even believe that women on this site are doing this to me, and that they don't believe half of the stuff they tell me. I don't think women want me to be successful, they want me to suffer and want to use me as a punching bag for their anger and insecurities. I just know that once they have managed to transform me into a sucker, some woman will call me a "pathetic loser who can't get any". I will then be their public laughing stock. I've seen them make such comments to and about other men. In this event, my self-esteem would be completely crushed and I would be destroyed.

Women are not out to get you or laugh at you or play with you. You are not the center of anyone's universe but your own. Unless you have hurt someone's feelings really bad, they will not want to waste their time on hurting you. How could that possibly benefit them? How could anyone benefit from using you as a punching bag for their anger, if they aren't angry with you?

4. I believe that women who like me will hook up on the first date, and that the rest either don't like me, or are playing games.

Of the dozens of women I have ever dated (even once), only a handful agreed to see me again after a first date with no action (not neccessarily sex). Some of these girls I wanted to date, some I wanted sex with, some I didn't know what I wanted. Sometimes I put moves on them, but usualy I never got the chance. Frequently in the past I had no intention of puting any moves on them. Even worse, the girls who did agree to see me again after not hooking up, were usualy interested in taking advantage of me. Once they got bored playing games and stringing me along (remember I didn't always put moves on them), they then got rid of me too. So, as you can see, all ended up exactly the same: they trashed me and didn't look back.

I don't know if you are right about that. If I liked a guy a lot and still liked him after a date, I would sleep with him. But I know other women who just need a little more time (even if they really like a guy).

5. I believe that most women enjoy treating men they aren't interest in, with cruelty and sadism. [IM NOT SAYING THIS IS TRUE, ITS JUST MY OPINION FROM MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES!!!!!]

This is indeed not true.

Women seem to have a very low opinion of men with romantic shortcomings. If a girl detects a lack of confidence, assertiveness, self-respect, or dominance, in my behavior, then she will change her opinion of me.

Were you trying to come across as someone with those characteristics? If so, were you just acting? Wouldn't it be more fair if you were acting like yourself from the start? There are plenty of girls who will be perfectly okay with you being a little insecure, but if you play the role of a dominant man (or any other man) and if it then turns out that you were acting, it's not strange that a girl will change her opinion about you.

Instantly I become a play-toy, although she originaly saw me as a potential lover or boyfriend. Once demoted to this lowly position, she will then proceed to abuse and tease me, and finaly get rid of me like trash. On numerous occasions I have heard women talking shit about guys with these shortcommings, so its not only some women who are like this, but most of them.
Have you heard MOST women talk like this?
I hope this post wasn't offensive to anyone. I am not sure these beliefs of mine are sane and I would like help. At the very least, I will have a better idea if my thinking is correct. Again, I am willing to listen to your criticisms.

I wasn't offended by your post. I hope no one is offended by some of my answers.
 
Why do you think that anyone is bashing him?...

Well, he has been bashed. Look up his other posts.
I have read many of them.

I was tired when I wrote that so forgive me. I was not trying to be rude to him. He has in other posts not used the correct wordings or maybe not expressed himself enough and his original topic become a English school 101 instead, completely forgetting what his original topic was about. Now I am not saying my English is better. Phobo usually answers all posts to his thread and in those bashing cases he would try to stick up for himself and explain himself. A great loss because I am sure it frustrated him and his original topic went forgotten.

All I wanted was to stick up for him as I think he has really good posts.
He posts things that I dare not post myself.

Phobo, I meant not harm in my post. :)

I will stop here as the original topic is going of course as happens
a lot here. I am the cause of that sometimes :)
 

lunarla

Well-known member
Women play games, yeah. I'd like to think it's more predominantly at a certain age group (One that I'm unfortunately a part of) but that they'll just grow out of it (to an extent, and some of them). I am very suspicious of them myself but that likely has to do with feeling threatened. My viewpoint is that most girls of a certain age predominantly, do a lot of things to gain accomplishment and boost their own self confidence like you said. I believe that many think of guys as a prospect and even more so if the guy is already taken which makes me sick to my stomach.

I think it's possible that I have come to think of this by knowing certain girls like this and by observing my sister's behaviour in relationships. I think that some girls will have a relationship (not a serious one, obviously) while still keeping their options open with other men so that if a current relationship were to end they could simply go to one of their already-prepped love interests. It really does sicken me.

It's likely not completely productive for me to offer advice on this subject when I also have a more pessimistic view of them, myself. But I'd like to think that not all are like that, surely. I think with maturity and settling down into actual relationships, it lessens a bit. It seems like you may be drawn towards the wrong type of girls though, like others have said. From my experience it's usually easy to spot one of these types as described by hearing some things that come out of their mouths and their demeanor.

Try getting to reallyyy reallyyyy know someone before you get your hopes up, because in that case, you're probably to be disappointed. Look for really superficial things that a girl might say, for example. Just things that might trigger you to know that she's not matured very much to have an actual relationship.

It confuses me very much these types of games that people play with relationships as I feel I'm on the outskirts of it all. I can't imagine why people would act that way, but I think it has something to do with a "dating scene" in general. It seems like everyone just keeps their options open with no real commitment.
 
Well.. These girls you met don't seem serious enough to have any healthy relationship at all... I know a girl like that, is not a friend of mine, i know her because a close friend of mine talked to me about her. She is either abusive or abused. if you don't treat her like crap, she treats you like crap and uses you.

That sounds like a lot of the party girls I know or have met.

Maybe these girls were like her.. Totally f***ed up, maybe self centered or all the opposite (and they use others to feel better with themseves). Sadly, you just met the bad side of the female specie... that's why you think that all of them are bitchy. But it's not true.. not all of them are like that.


Well that may be true, but I think the problem is deeper than that. My phobia is fear of being defective and I developed these attitudes out of the pain and anxiety I felt surrounding my intereactions with women, many years ago when I was in middle school and highschool. They have largely ruined my love-life by themselves, the rest of my SA notwithstanding.

I used to think that all guys were disrespectful pigs, because i had the bad luck of meeting really bad people in the past...

Oink..oink...snort...pardon?

That first impression affected the way i thought about guys and i generalized, thinking that ALL of them would hurt and use me. Maybe that happened to you now and that's why you think all girls are bad?

Sorry if i don't make sense :p

You make perfect sense and you hit the nail on the head. I generalized a few experiences to all women, and I created very painful and angry beliefs out of my obsessive thinking, distortions, and fear of being defective.
 
It seems to me like you're impression that all women are like this stems from a few things- first, you seem to seek out women that are likely to use and manipulate you, and secondly, you let them.

Yes, I seek out attractive women with a broad range of dispositions. Their physical beauty is about the only thing they have in common, so you are only demonstrating that attractive women have a sadistic and cruel nature. And yes, I let them treat me badly (in the past) because I had low self-esteem and did not know I deserved better. Are you claiming I deserve this?

What I mean is that your self esteem makes it so that you must seem like an easy target to people (especially women) that like to take advantage of others and walk all over them, and your feeling that you're not "worth" more makes it so that you don't stand up for yourself in the way that you should. If you had more self respect, you wouldn't even give these people the time of day, and you would attract people that respect themselves and you as well.


No shit. If I had more self-respect I wouldn't have SA. But every time I try to stand my ground and stick up for myself, some woman comes along and flames me, makes me at fault, and attacks my character. Do you have social phobia by the way? People with this illness don't have high self-esteem, it's a characteristic symptom.
 
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