You want to know how to change your social anxiety / phobia?

[LittleMissMuffet]

Thanks Jack!

I'm glad that this thread is still going, because I have been having a few more little thoughts.

When you wrote that we don't conciously think our wrong thoughts, I really agree. And, just like when we go to get therapy and CBT requires us to list what thoughts we could be thinking so that then we can go back and change them -well, it's easy enough to see how much CBT is just common sense. Common sense of changing perception.

Yet, I brought issues raised in this thread here with my therapist, telling her how 'changing perception' and CBT are all just based on common sense and that many people try this but still meet with resistance and an inability to change how they feel enough. She agreed that, although simple, truly changing perception and all the linked thoughts that go with an anxiety problem is hard and a person needs to really thoroughly work to do this. ...Maybe it is that what started off as a smaller problem with one 'wrong' thought has progressed and gotten bigger so that there are a few more 'wrong' thoughts. Or, maybe it is more that our emotions are so strong that really changing our thinking takes a lot of work. ...I'm not sure. But what I am sure of is that it takes a lot of thoroughness and vigilance.

And, how's this for another analogy similar to the drug addiction one...
if we were mice in a lab experiment and the scientist had put 2 pieces of cheese in a maze, but the cheese closest to us had an electrode, while the piece of cheese at the end of the maze didn't; I think that before that mouse gets the knowledge to go after the second piece of cheese, that he/she is stuck at the mercy of their instincts and goes after the cheese with the electrode attached. ...Now, I figure that the mouse suffers biting this piece of cheese but is sort of stuck not understanding how something that its instincts habitually go for is negative and not positive -at least, it's mind hasn't made the full connection yet. And emotionally, the mouse is torn between two courses of action. But, if the mouse gets enough of a shock, all of a sudden it can now rely upon its instincts and the thinking part comes easily.

...So, basically I am saying that our emotions keep making us respond a certain way, and we have mixed or ambivalent emotions. But if we really got enough of a jolt we would give up anxiety emotions and the thoughts that match these emotions would be concious to us. But, when we are not emotionally fully decided and still torn between two different actions/feelings, we are not as aware of what the thoughts behind our emotions are. They are not as easy to be aware of. And also, we still are inclined to instinctually react the way we always have (and get submerged by our complicated, confused emotions).

But without that mind-changing shock, we can only work backwards to try to find all the thoughts behind our feelings.

Anyhow, until I know more about how our minds work, the above is the explanation that I am giving.

I've been trying to make a collection of what a few of these 'new thoughts' to replace the old 'wrong' thoughts may be for me. (I notice that they are all similar, but I figure that changing a few of these may help getting that deep emotional change happening.)

Here is a list of three of these I have collected....

1. What is 'imperfect' is 'perfect'; (curtesy of Alexp )
allow for mistakes (because you change your view of what a 'mistake' actually is and do not label being shy or nervous as 'evil' so that we don't attack ourselves or put our problem out of perspective; but instead break it down into manageable parts)

2. (similar to the above) accept ourself as innately shy, timid, a bit nervous, so that we keep and allow a part of ourself to be acceptable and right, and then if we get bad reactions or judgements, we have already accepted and allowed ourself to be these things without the need for others to accept and/or forgive this
(also comes with accepting and expecting ourself to be more of these things because we are working on getting more balance and lessening an anxiety difficulty)

3. In a situation in which we feel threatened or lesser and/or superior to extroverted people, and/or 'the group' (which tends to follow extrovert behaviour), see introversion and extroversion as equal. This is true because one way of being only exists because of the other. And, accept ourself as relatively introverted (inward focussed, the 'thinking' type, introspective etc) and accept a small part of this as being our anchor and then practice taking the lead of others unlike you, thinking that the small part of their extroversion has to exist for you to exist. This is to try to adapt and adjust to difference and to make ourself more balanced and therefore 'relative' to others -so these two 'small part' of introversion and extroversion are like relative reference points to make ourself more adaptable and able to move at the pace of others.

...I had tried #3 a year ago and because I think it was something that easily stuck in my head (I am still examining why) it worked extremely well for me. ...Then I went to work and I could not find the thoughts behind the feelings I was experiencing and #3 just didn't seem to hit the spot. It's a good question as to why this is, I'm not sure now.

 

[Alexp]

Great stuff

I was mildly hoping this thread would disappear for my own selfish sake due to the embarrassing rough start That’s my high expectations still in action - hahaha, its probably good though that it doesn’t.

I like all 3 points. #3 is fascinating and a very good point. I think it’s a great idea to see ourselves as equals. Different but equal in the end. Somewhat like you would with gender. Everyone knows that there are some things that each sex is naturally better at (in general), but it doesn’t mean that in the end one is superior or inferior. We can learn to better understand and appreciate different talents without making judgment as to value.

As for understanding the emotion or thought behind the anxiety, it can be very difficult, in my opinion, because there is almost always two conflicting emotions and thoughts driving them (can even be the same emotion) at work.

Up until this point, I’ve tried to simplify anxiety to help facilitate dialogue about it, but to me the core of understanding anxiety goes deeper.

There are always two opposing forces that motivate almost all action and decision and its when those two opposing forces clash, you get the ‘anxiety’ we all know and dread.

Lets look at a social situation. Say you are standing in a little group of about 4-5 people and everyone is engaged in the conversation. At first you might have just a little anxiety because you just got there and just decided to listen and see what everyone is saying. As time goes on though you start to realize that if you don’t say anything, you will look a little foolish just standing there all night. The 1st force is the social embarrassment / guilt of not talking within that group. You realize that you might be perceived as looking foolish if you don’t say anything soon. Before you can act on the 1st force, there’s a 2nd force that keeps the 1st one in check. This force says… wait a sec, before you say anything, make sure you say something that is socially accepted. Its saying that if you say something wrong you will also look foolish. This is the cautionary force that checks the 1st force. The 1st emotional force pushes you to act while the 2nd force pushes you not to act. This is where anxiety builds as the two fight it out. As time goes on you realize that you are looking even more foolish by not saying anything, so the 1st force gets stronger. Eventually the social embarrassment of not saying anything overpowers the social embarrassment of saying the wrong thing and you end up saying something. The anxiety is mostly released for that particular thing and then it can start all over again.

On the surface, all you feel is confused anxiety, you are shaky and scared, you want to say something, but you also don’t want to say something? You feel guilty if you don’t, but you feel guilty if you do? Its hard to logically make sense of it. Your mind battles your expectations and perceptions many times without you even knowing what’s going on.

Amazingly, it works for almost all action and decision to some degree. Its not too complicated, but the implications of this is far reaching. Its very hard to further explain these driving forces and their implications without going into pages and pages detail.

If anyone is interested, they should check out our website. Its www.untroddenmind.com I’m not promoting or selling anything and I don’t get a cent out of it, its just the accumulation of our knowledge & research put down for the benefit of anyone who’s interested.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi again,

Alex, I think we are all trying to get our minds round the same thing and finging ways to understand the same thing using our different words.
Before I talk more about what you wrote I wanted to say a few things...

I used to be a regular at a Christian forum on the net, where I liked to discuss ideas about changing perception (both out of interest and to help my self). One person had a really good understanding of perception (I even mentioned my anxiety problems and spoke about this forum).
One time he wrote a sort of formula for that whole yin-yang thing, that duality between two opposing sides of the self that you and I are describing.

I think that simplifying this conflict between opposites so that we both understand how it functions within us and then so we can put it all together to get a bigger picture is essential. (Both Jesus and Jung spoke about the conflict between opposite sides of the self -I wrote down some of their quotes in a thread I started about Jung)
-But, this person I mentioned, simplified things with....

1 + (-1) = 1.

But, we are stuck believing, (which is really, feeling and then thinking) that instead...

1 + (-1) = 0.

...That, giving up anxiety and whatever reasons we think we need it, is because we somehow think that without it we won't exist as ourself.
It is like asking yourself, if you gave up your opinion for someone else who had an equal but opposite opinion, would you still exist as yourself-? ...Yet, this has to be possible, since otherwise we could not see ourselves as equal to others.
...Jesus said: "Whoever tries to save his own life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it" (Jesus us the Alpha and Omega, or the complete self with opposites united as one) ...this, describes the vicious circle that we find ourself in. Yet, it is a circle. And, if we could believe that one side was equal relative to the other, we would be able to 'give up' our side, our anxiety that is fighting under the belief to protect us, because we would no longer believe we needed it.

You know how I've spoken about people who have an experience (psychologists have referred to it as a heightened experience or something, and Jesus refers to it as the apocalypse) this is like facing death and all your worst fears. It is like the drug addict hitting that 'rock bottom' place within themself and their sense of life and death is rearranged, so that what seemed life-preserving somewhat switches places with what was death and pain. -This is when emotionally the person gets the message -they lose their fear because they experience a high level of it all in one moment and discover in that moment that they still exist. Its like cold turkey, since they go through the worst pain in one go, and lose their fear of it happening again, at the same time that they wake up to seeing that they never needed to have their fear (their drug) and that it is more death than giving it up is. ....This is when the message sinks in deep, a person sees the new perception -how two opposites are equal and it is like the vicious circle has gone full circle in a very perfectly balanced way (a little more or a little less and the person just misses this heightened experience). They get this perception and lose their fear because they now believe that they and other unlike them are equal. They keep this perception in their mind that they saw and now believe because they emotionally came across it, until they have shaped their emotions around it gradually more and more. Then the perception that two opposites are one (and the new balance created with this) is believed more and more fully and is likewise easier and easier for them to see, because they believe enough in it to get past that fear/doubt that would otherwise make them react the same as they did before.

And I'm trying to go over the above (which happened to me once before in another situation) to try to understand the whole process better.

...Anyhow, I'm really trailing off here!!!! As you can no doubt tell.
Let me have more of a think about things and I'll get back with something more succinct to say.
But, otherwise, refer to the above 'formula' that I was told by someone is a way to simplify and understand what changing perception is.
(as simple as the concept of perception and changing it are, something that simplified is likewise truly complete -and because it is such a complete change in view point, it is, I'd say, the most challenging thing of all to do)

 

[Caillou]

This is the reason I do not post anymore and have pretty much stopped looking at this site even though it can be quite helpful at times. I am very nervous to post as are many people out there and it makes it harder to post when you are shot down by the other posters. This is the reason we have social phobia in the first place!

Not everyone's statements are going to be useful to everyone however, it doesn't mean we have to put that person down for at least trying to help.

 

[Alexp]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply

You asked in your last post why #3 didn’t quite hit the spot. My personal opinion is that the idea is perfect, but what is flawed is us. We have to remember that we are human and as much as we wish for equality, the reality is that people judge unfairly – and the reality is that we do value what others think (we are all social creatures at heart) so as much as we try, we can never believe that which is so very contrary to others opinions. (such as truly believing in equality or self-perfection).

Many of us have a lot of anxiety and problems because we value too much what others say and we have too much integrity to simply pretend that we are something completely different to what other’s see. We focus on the flaws in an honest effort to do or be better but at the cost of anxiety and depression.

Its very difficult because we have so much trouble disconnecting from others perceptions of ourselves. We can certainly try as Jack-B suggests. A healthy dosage of disconnection and realizing your mind might be overanalyzing that which isn’t really there, is certainly helpful.

The most effective method in my opinion is putting it all into realistic reality. To keep it all into honest perspective. You can value what others think, but realize that sometimes mistakes happen, miscommunications happen, and its just a part of life. It doesn’t make you a bad person. If someone doesn’t like you and you feel you honesty did the best you could or you were true to your self, then we need to stop the guilt (maybe anger), stop the self-correction and stop the anxiety. We cannot change that which has no real problem…all that we end up doing is feeding ourselves more and more anxiety in an effort to stop the pain without realizing we cant stop something that is not entirely our fault.

There's so much more I want to say..I will try to write more soon.

By the way - Anyone else is welcome to add to or join the discussion You can add or say anything you like.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Alex,
I trailed-off in my last post.

This is why I think #3 method only worked in a certain situation and not in another...

In the previous situation I identified the problem with 'introversion vs extroversion', but could not find words to describe the problem emotions at work.

Now I think that, as with CBT, we look for more than one 'wrong' thought or perception to recontextualise, becuase emotionally we are unconvinced and still fearful. ...Because our emotions react often before we are aware of our thoughts, we find ourself pulled into thinking the same way and there is a struggle to more easily recognise and change the wrong thoughts specific to the situation.But if there did exist a strong substantial change emotionally within, our fear would no-longer persist and all the complicated detailed thoughts would easily be recognised as the same and there would be a natural ease at changing them.

Not only do I recognise the tendency in SA to be preoccupied with details that goes with a tendency towards introspection and introversion, but this getting lost in details is also symptomatic of being stuck within one's viewpoint at the expence of the simpler, but bigger picture. -We are largely still stuck within our own perspective. Tolstoy once wrote: "A simple man makes things complicated, but a complicated man makes things simple."

So I guess without having lost our fears yet, that we are stuck somewhat needing to approach a simpler more whole picture through our more detailed self-centred perspective.

I think that losing our fear would come with realising that our own perspective is not fair either. That, just like realising and accepting that sensitivity and analytical traits our central to our personality, that we will always approach the world in this way. That, so too, others will be opposite to this; and that whilst their point of view is biased, that ours is also. Then, seeing two imperfect sides (in their bias) as equal would make sense. I think that we could accept our flaws when we realise that because these cannot be changed, that others are the same as us -then we can see criticism of us within a perspective that can accept an opposing point of view without feeling threatened. And we also would not be afraid of our tendency towards nerves, shyness and even anxiety.

That, 1 + (-1) = 1; as opposed to 1 + (-1) = 0, is like us realising that the two opposites are equal, and that eventhough a negative seems to cancel us out, we still survive as who we are. And, that some of others opinions that appear to cancel us out, aren't really based on inequality. I think we don't see our own bias to realise that others' bias is fair to some extent always. I think we think that people judge us more than they do (and then those that do are attracted towards judging us).

 

[Alexp]

Hi,

I agree with everything you said and that kind of perception shift would indeed stop the fear.

In America, everyone knows that people tend to be valued more if you are extroverted. The problem with our perception is that its molded by those around us because we are social creatures. We know that other people are judged more fairly because they have a different trait and we know that many times people judge us unfairly simply because of a difference.

I think its possible, but difficult to maintain a biased opinion that contrary to others biased opinion completely. We are only human after all. Its not to say we cant strive for what you advocate and the further we get to where we accept ourselves as equals and see our traits as a part of our personality and who we are then the more we help ourselves.

I’ve asked the question, why do I still have anxiety and fear if what I preach is suppose to work?

I see anxiety as a minds tool to help combat the world based on your view. I’ve shifted my expectations and perceptions to be more realistic but I still have strict and fairly high expectations and that’s where I seem to like it the most when I examine it closely. I tend to like the idea that I can jump out of bed at any time in the morning if I think I need to. I tend to like the idea that my anxiety keeps me on my toes and helps me double check and triple check things so I make less mistakes that will cause me more pain in the future. I tend to like the idea that I can motivate myself to extreme levels on a simple thought. All this because I have still have relatively high anxiety. I realize the downside is that I have more trouble sleeping, I feel prolonged fear at making decisions, and I feel a lot of anxiety instead of calm.

I think the point I’m trying to make is that I’m at a more comfortable point. If my anxiety was lower, I would probably feel more calm, but would sacrifice that power and caution that comes with high anxiety and I’m not really willing to do right now and my mind knows that.

Before I understood the control I had over the process, I was shaky all day, especially in social situations. I wouldn’t be able to do the simplest of tasks out of fear of making a mistake. Everyday I kept feeding myself more and more anxiety in an effort to try to stop the pain of looking / saying something stupid in public or making a mistake that I would blame myself later. My mind used anxiety to such extreme levels in an effort to actually help me, but when your perception is incredibly unrealistic, then it hurts more than it helps.

When you start being more realistic and start allowing for mistakes then it takes some time for your body to realize it doesn’t need to use such high anxiety anymore. Its just a matter of reinforcement. When you stop feeling so much pain from making a mistake, your body will adjust the level of anxiety to a more reasonable level. Its not instant, but it doesn’t take too long either. In my case it started helping after a few days and continually got better as the reinforcement gets lower and lower every time.

There came a point where I made a serious mistake because I pulled my anxiety so low with certain things that I wasn’t caring and being careful enough with what I was doing. It was something I could have easily avoided with a little caution. So I allowed myself the feel some guilt and some pain for the mistake and probably caused myself to feel more anxiety next time. But it was fair..it wasn’t unrealistic…it was something I could have easily improved on. Notice how its like a balancing act where its important to find the level you are most comfortable with.

Sorry for the long post, I just want to say one last thing though. If someone was able to be anxiety free, they would have trouble adapting and changing when needed which is important. They would also lack for a lot of motivation. Some motivation is driven by positive emotions, but a huge chuck of it is due to fear of some negative emotion (like guilt of not doing something) and that part of motivation would be lost to a person who is anxiety free.

 

[LA-girl]

just one other thing:-

I read in a book that Jesus' power to heal anyone he wanted to came from his belief that all people were perfect; that this way of perceiving people allowed him to create change and heal people. Like seeing the whole of a person already and bringing this out.

Hello again!

Just wanted to say that i have just posted the story of Mary Magdalene that should fit in very well with your statement! It is truly a warm and heartfelt story!

You can read it here:
OUT OF THE SCRAP HEAP

Watch video

 

[romeno82]

Lets look at a social situation. Say you are standing in a little group of about 4-5 people and everyone is engaged in the conversation. At first you might have just a little anxiety because you just got there and just decided to listen and see what everyone is saying. As time goes on though you start to realize that if you don’t say anything, you will look a little foolish just standing there all night. The 1st force is the social embarrassment / guilt of not talking within that group. You realize that you might be perceived as looking foolish if you don’t say anything soon. Before you can act on the 1st force, there’s a 2nd force that keeps the 1st one in check. This force says… wait a sec, before you say anything, make sure you say something that is socially accepted. Its saying that if you say something wrong you will also look foolish. This is the cautionary force that checks the 1st force. The 1st emotional force pushes you to act while the 2nd force pushes you not to act. This is where anxiety builds as the two fight it out. As time goes on you realize that you are looking even more foolish by not saying anything, so the 1st force gets stronger. Eventually the social embarrassment of not saying anything overpowers the social embarrassment of saying the wrong thing and you end up saying something. The anxiety is mostly released for that particular thing and then it can start all over again.

you bring out 2 issues:

first like you said correctly is fear of public embarrassment, and cos embarrassment is a very painful emotion and so you try to avoid it at any cost. this causes a extreme performance anxiety.

and correctly you wrote that this first fear iniziates a second fear response. witch collidates each against the other.

the scond fear is the fear of saying something that humiliates you.
But this second fear response is far more complicated than you wrote. it is the core what keeps the sp circle going. it has to do with the consequencies of saying something that humiliates you. this fear works not just in the here and now. its future based. in first place its the fear of losing the face(fear of public humiliation). from there results the fear of losing reputation(fear of loss of "public image"). and this causes the fear of not being able to met your needs and to end up alone(fear of abandonment).
abandonment means: public lost of worth(being laughed at, being teased,being avoided, being not take seriously,being seen as crazy).


And cos you have a very urgent need of social approvation and satisfaction there is also a big amout of performance anxiety. like i wrote before it is a stall situation.

 

[Alexp]

Hi romeno82,

Thanks for the response and I completely agree with you. You are exactly right when you list all the consequences of saying or doing the wrong thing in the mind of someone with social anxiety. Social anxiety is especially difficult because our minds can perceive more than just pain, but a total loss of inherent needs as well as total humiliation. It makes the internal conflict that much harder.

It is a stall situation if you directly correlate a specific action or words to the complete fall of social status and humiliation. Everything you say or do could be directly linked to your downfall.

Realistic appraisal is needed to realize that saying the wrong thing here and there or doing the wrong thing here and there has no real future impact and if it does change someone’s opinion of you, you need to make allowances for that as well as tell yourself that its to be expected and not your downfall.

10 years back for me and I was exactly how you said it…I linked every little thing I was about to say or do to my possible downfall and humiliation. I don’t think I spoke more than one word my entire high school years. I was by all accounts, completely stalled. I did learn to chip away at that and allow for imperfection. When I go out in public and say something kinda stupid I just kinda laugh it off. I realize that its not going to destroy me...I try not to initiate the guilt (self-correction) and stop reinforceing that anxiety. As a result, that 2nd force gets lower and lower and I become less stalled and more calm next time.

I think the most important thing is that I go into a social situation expecting that I may make a mistake (even the idea that I will make a mistake!), but understanding beforehand that a mistake will not ruin me. The ironic thing is most people actually appreciate a social mistake here and there and all my thinking that people were going to hate me was self-inflicted….and if someone did end up hating me or thinking something bad about me...then if I’m realistically grounded I will allow for things like that. I wont feel the need to self-correct out of fear that I'm going to ruin myself if I'm not more careful and as a result the anxiety gets lower and lower.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Alex,
I'm greatful that you responded again to my posts. After writing them, despite my need to express my thoughts, I also felt that I was complicating things a little and repeating my self instead of being more direct and simple.

Your last reply I think is pretty smart and honest. And I like how you called managing anxiety a balancing act. Your overall approach, I believe is a successful one - my therapist told me that (with the help of your ideas) my ideas about how to solve this thing were really good in that I was showing that I could divide the problem up into parts that were fine and parts that were not. -Like how you observe that some anxiety is a good thing. ...At my job when I had a lot of anxiety, one of the thoughts in my head was that: "I must GET RID of my anxiety". -With this I had broken one of the rules in changing perception (remember how 'the more you resist something/label it as purely evil, the more it persists, like with sexuality etc). ....The Common Sense of changing perception requires really monitoring your beliefs so that you can check the ones that show what remaining prejudice or unhelpful sentiments one has. (Even with sex, you can see that people say they believe that men and women are equal, but easily revert to prejudice when they feel threatened in some way. ...so the roots go deep, when it comes to our beliefs about things, and we need to be patient and respect our difficulties. Again Jesus said something relevant: "Happy those who know they are poor in spirit, the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs". )

Anyhow, i don't wish to make this too long, and I've already missed saying something I really wanted to say. I think that part of my social anxiety comes from the introspective, thoughtful and sensitive personality that I have. And this is so natural to me that it is no wonder that I show neurosis regarding social interaction. I notice that more extroverted people would not give anywhere near as much thought to thinking about how they approach social situations -and they do not struggle with falling over the details of social interaction as I do. ...Notice the thinking and approach is almost completely opposite in nature to mine?

....I won't go on too much, however, you said you secretly felt a little desire for this thread to fo away, because you were embarrassed or the like about how it began. ...I would say to you that this puzzle is a real paradox (like all good puzzles are). That, as with the simple solution that you came up with, whilst it is correct, the difficulty exists I believe in the individuals ability to think already in this more simple way. My therapist expressed an element of frustration, and although she said it to mock herself a little, she did say: "OH, why don't you just get on with it?"
...Kind of like, we have to approach thinking in a more simple way starting from our more detailed way. We are more introspective and thoughtful and we need to be more 'outward' and non-thinking. Yet, we will to some extent approach this new way of thinking through our own more detailed, thoughtful kind of way.

...I have trouble expressing just what I mean with this. I just observe that there is a kind of paradox with this. Part of it lies in our emotional shaping -in our getting to be confident about our being sensitive, so that we are not insecure about this. Then I think that we will find it easier to relate to others in a less introspective and more direct way that bridges the gap between our rich inner world and the outer world of strangers and/or extroverts etc...

I think that when we feel more confident in our individuality that we'll be able to break things up (as demonstrated for example by your allowing imperfections method) and see the sensitive and anxious part of us that is good, whilst working to control and bring balance to the rest. Then we will have simplified the complexity -just as we will have found the part of ourself that is good within the bad and will see who we are in relation to others and this is an easier change of perception (finding the end and beginning to ourself)...like knowing and accepting oneself as having become more sensitive in the world. Part of being able to accept and adopt this simple yet complete approach that a change in perspective is about is a result of being sure in one's individuality. If we know and like ourself as sensitive (even if this is greatly so, yet we come to accept our great difference in the world) then we feel confident of who we are and adapting to others more extroverted ways will be much easier and simpler. Until then, we are still in the process of making our way to finding our individuality, I think, and haven't found the beginning and end to ourself in order to simplify the complexity and easily change our perspective.

....Damn I wish my understanding was better so that I could both understand better as well as properly explain the little that I do understand. I just know that there is a paradox to this and that changing perspective needs to be seen in terms of being a process that a person grows into being clear and defined about.

Sorry about the length as well.

LA girl, thanks for the reference. And, yeah, I find a lot of encouragement and help from Jesus' words.

 

[Alexp]

Wow!!!! How could I have missed that all along...I had a sleepless night (as I do often) thinking about what you wrote and it hit me like a train.

Its perhaps the greatest paradox of all -

Anxiety is created when you feel you need to change, but what if what you feel you need to change is anxiety itself? All you end up doing is creating more anxiety in order to change anxiety…it doesn’t work…it cant work!

I used to always do that as well. I would get home from a party or a social situation and I would hate myself, many times not even for something I did wrong, but for being so shy and so anxious and so afraid. My mind would realize that there was something I was doing wrong and did the only thing it knew how – it would create more anxiety so I could avoid that pain – but the pain was anxiety itself….Ahhh paradox paradox! Bingo!

I don’t think our minds can actually distinguish between anxiety itself and fear / hatred of anxiety, they both create anxiety and you can end up creating anxiety from anxiety itself. Its so simple and obvious…I cant believe I missed it in seeing it in its entirety.

To be honest, I think I started getting significantly better the day I did realize that anxiety is an amazing tool and not something to hate or fear. I could put everything else into play… such as allowing for imperfection and everything seemed to flow exactly how I wanted it.

When I think about how so many people view anxiety as evil or as a cruel chemical imbalance, it makes me a little sick and it makes me a little sad too. When you view something as bad or evil, you create anxiety to change it or at least to deal with it…but it cant work when its anxiety to begin with.

Having studied and thought about anxiety so much, I grew to appreciate its power and its beauty and in doing so I think the last missing piece fell into place…I accepted my own anxiety (without realizing that) and in doing so I finally had the power to change it and balance it at will. You cannot willfully change that which is change itself.

So if I could say one thing to everyone here - it is this: Learn as much as you can about what anxiety really is, learn to understand that its trying its best to actually help you based on your own minds perceptions and expectations and its not there to destroy you. Learn to love it and it wont have power over you. Learn the harness its power in the way its suppose to work and you can have the power to do anything.

Thanks so much Missmuffet There’s so much more I want to say and I will a little later. By the way, I think you would love this book called “The Highly Sensitive Person” by Elaine Aron. Its all about exactly what you are talking about - Its so much about loving and accepting your sensitivity and bridging that gap to rest of the world. I highly recommend it.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi there Alex,

I feel much the same way about it all. It is like the answer has been right in front of us for a long time but that it is difficult to really see it.

But I think that it is like being sure in your individuality; that this is being in the emotional place where you can accept your faults fully because you are also able to see them in terms of what good goes with them. I really think that when a person feels this way, this new perspective about anxiety and our relationship with is is easily seen. ...until then, a person can do their best to get their mind around what a 'new perception' means.

I know you are not particularly religious, but if you look back to that quote I gave from a book, it stated that Jesus saw all people as perfect and was able to 'make them whole' by bringing this perception of (a higher) reality that he saw. It also stated that he recognised the weak and outcasts in terms of them going through a process of life and change that he saw as perfect; and assisted them in moving to a new phase when he recognised their desire to move to it.

...all of that is really what 'changing perception' amounts to. So, whilst logical and even common sense -based, it's such a complete bringing together of all emotions that it is no wonder that it is the most challenging thing to do. -What Jung called 'individuation', and 'self-realisation'; which he stated required a person becoming aware of the polarities within any given conflict, and that 'the third, transcendent, (God-like) opinion is achieved by maintaining the friction between polar opposites for as long as possible. ...Or, like how you stated that what you judge as 'evil' you struggle to control; but, accepting the 'evil' as being part of the overall person allows the person to actually control/choose what part of them to express and live-out. And bringing together both poles (good and evil) makes the whole and in fact is the new definition for good. (Just like God is the Alpha and Omega, both light and dark, good and evil ...again, the nature of God, which is another word for perception of reality, is based on paradox)

...Now, please don't get put off by all that trivia I just threw at you: it's nice to know such things, but knowing them without really 'seeing' them in terms of one's life etc, is sort of pointless. ...Or rather, look and see how I can know these facts about how to change perception and yet still find such trouble in actually acomplishing a change in my perception. ...So, don't be put off or see me as arrogant. (this whole experience is really bringing me down to earth a lot :lol: )

I can throw some more 'wise saying' that I've come across...
Last night I read in a book called 'conversations with God' (again, bare with me for just a little while, since I'll show you how for at least this one thing stated in it it makes a lot of common sense...)
And this is how the conversation between "God" and the author went on p88...
"God" -"...if God is your target, you're in luck, because God is so big you can't miss."
Author - "That's the big worry, of course. The big worry is that somehow we'll mess up and not get to ever see You, be with You."
"God" - "You mean 'get to heaven'?
Author - "Yes. We're all afraid of going to hell."
"God" - "So you've placed yourself there to begin with in order to avoid going there. Hmmmmmm. Interesting strategy."
Author - "there you go, being flip again."
"God" - "I can't help it. This 'hell' thing brings out the worst in me."

...I hope you're not too put off by my adding that. But if you replace the words 'hell' with 'anxiety' (and 'heaven' with freedom from excessive anxiety) you can see how it it relevant. So again, it is like us habitually believing and perceiving anxiety as pure evil, or hell, and going through so much of it in order to try to escape going through so much of it.

Anyhow, it's all pretty much the same: it's certainly not an easy task to get such a clear and common sense perception of a problem like (and i'll be careful to choose my words here -) excessive anxiety (-!). And like your brilliant idea about accepting our imperfections (this is exactly the same concept as Jesus seeing people in terms of an overall perfection!! ) in light of a bigger reality/purpose etc, when we are dealing with strong emotions, you can imagine that we have a bigger task tthan many in being able to apply such a new perspective/value system to the more intense collection of feelings that we have.

There is more to say. But I think we are doing pretty well! And it's important to keep it up.

I recently got an email from someone whose opinion I value greatly. I had told him of my difficulty with anxiety and he wrote back saying that he had struggled with anxiety for about 20 years; only to more recently conclude that the solution for him consisted of learning to smile whilst saying something like - "I don't mind about the little things"; and also learning to breathe with the diaphragm instead of in the chest (which supposedly lowers the flight or fight response).

If you want, we could have a discussion/brainstorm about the whole 'paradox' thing, about how I figure that we see things more complicated until we get to finding our emotional confidence from seeing who we are more in perspective with others. ...We could try to wrestle with why it is that 'changing perception' is such a simple concept -just common sense like our CBT is - and yet before we accept it fully to wrap our mind around it, it can be such a struggle to think so simply.
...Maybe, if you are interested, we could approach trying to understand such a thing.

Thanks Alex.
We seem to have more in common than simply social anxiety. -I've even been wondering whether you grew up with the same relationship with your siblings as me. (My sister is the complete opposite to me, in that she is very talented -maybe too much even- at taking control of social situations. I think that it has contributed to a degree in my insecurity with people -but, it is one of a handful of contributing factors, I think.)

 

[LA-girl]

Little MissMuffet wrote:

Just like God is the Alpha and Omega, both light and dark, good and evil ...again, the nature of God, which is another word for perception of reality, is based on paradox)

I know this is not supposed to be a religious debate, but I just have to make a comment here. Are you saying here that God (I assume you mean the christian God) is both good and EVIL and in that case, what makes you say that?

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Well, maybe it is best not to make this a religious debate.

I think that Jesus spoke in parables for the purpose of allowing people their own freedom for interpretation. I think that he also did it so that people would think on their own about whatever specific issue they needed to think about -and that this is a part of them coming to terms with how to look at something in their life according to how they themselves wish to see it. Individual choice matters.

So basically, I like to have my own interpretations but I don't like to impose them onto someone else.
How do you define what God, the Alpha and Omega is? (...your interpretation is fine if it is different to mine.)

 

[LA-girl]

Well, maybe it is best not to make this a religious debate.

I think that Jesus spoke in parables for the purpose of allowing people their own freedom for interpretation. I think that he also did it so that people would think on their own about whatever specific issue they needed to think about -and that this is a part of them coming to terms with how to look at something in their life according to how they themselves wish to see it. Individual choice matters.

So basically, I like to have my own interpretations but I don't like to impose them onto someone else.
How do you define what God, the Alpha and Omega is? (...your interpretation is fine if it is different to mine.)

No, I really do not want this thread to turn into a religious debate either as we have a thread in the off topic section for debating such issues.

But i just had to react to what you said here because I believe the Bible teaches clearly that God is good, and the opposite of evil. He is light, the opposite of darkness.

1 John 1:5 (English-NIV)
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

Last, but not least, God is love.

1 JOHN 4:8 NKJ
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

You also had a comment of why Jesus spoke in parables. I think the main reason why Jesus spoke in parables was because if he had spoken directly to the people he preached for, he would have been in much greater risk of being arrested by the Jewish priests, much sooner than he did. And then there would not be much of a gospel would there. :wink: But also probably for his message to survive and be used in different settings and situations.

But of course you can believe what you want, but maybe you could have emphacized that this is your interpretation (Well now you have. as i really find especially the part about God being both good and evil to contradict the scripture, that's all.

As this being kind of off-topic, it is probably best to leave it at that. We have two widely different views and that is ok, I just couldn't resist the temptation to make a comment.

 

[Alexp]

Hi MissMuffet,

We certainly do seem to think alike and I’m sure we probably have much in common. Haha, yes I do have my polar opposite in my sister. She is a social genius, talented, more friends than I can count and makes more money in one day than I do in a month – while raising 6 children (3 of them adopted from poverty stricken counties) and fostering others. Oh and of course, born on the other end of the sensitivity scale.

You know I love an intellectual challenge so I will try to give it a shot as to why perception change can be so difficult when its so 'simple'.

1. We are all raised to believe that anxiety and depression are bad / evil even before we fully experience them. It sets up a combative stance against our own mind. We fight our own minds and create complications from nothing. Its difficult to accept something we’ve learned to believe is evil or bad and its impossible to change that which cant be willfully changed (anxiety).

2. We have trouble distinguishing between what can be changed and what is simply a part of who we are. We all have different traits that can make us who we are. They are neither good nor bad, just different. Society has branded an ideal image of what most people value, and we all strive to change that which cant be changed instead of accepting who we are as a whole package and trying to do the best we can from the traits we have.

Its difficult because we value other’s opinions and those opinions tell us that we are bad or evil if we differ from the ideal image both internally and externally – but we don’t have to love ourselves, its enough to accept who we are and realize that our traits are not evil or wrong, just different. Remember that once you see something as evil, you will focus on it with continual anxiety until you can change it or accept that you can’t. If you can do neither or only temporarily accept it, then you are stuck with continual anxiety.

The idea of anxiety is to change that which can be changed. Like trying harder to do better or telling someone off that they did something wrong to you in order to curb their behavior. If we keep trying to change that which cant be changed (such as anxiety itself or our traits or even human desires) then we are in viscous anxiety cycle that cant end.

3. Maybe it’s a paradox because our minds are designed to fight and not to submit. Maybe that’s our competitive society telling us that we have to fight something in order to win. We cant willfully fight anxiety to change our behavior. The more we want to change it the more it will be present. We have to almost do the opposite. Submit to anxiety and allow that its there to help us and it wont hurt us anymore. You cant fight your own mind or who you are as a person.

In any case, I think everyone can make a difference in their own lives even if they don’t fully accept anxiety and their traits. We can allow for imperfection (including anxiety) and strive towards acceptance or allowance and it will help lower the anxiety bit by bit. Its my opinion it doesn’t have to be a complete perception change, but simply striving towards acceptance by allowing for imperfection will help lower the pain and anxiety.

Hopefully I didn’t go off track too much? Let me know what you think No problems about the religious material either – I’m of the thinking that if the message is good, then it doesn’t even matter who said it. Its valuable to anyone no matter what beliefs we may have, because its the message that is important.

Just a quick note on good / evil God. I love nothing more than a good religious debate, but the focus would probably be lost, so I will keep it short

I know Missmuffet doesn’t see God as literally good and evil – such as God being really good one day and then evil the next. I think what she means, (which is how I would see a perfect being as well) is that he has both good and evil and out of being both, he becomes perfectly good. Kind of like out of the darkness comes light. Only by being both can you truly be perfectly good. There’s no internal reference point to good if you are only good. If you cant know evil and have no evil, then you really cant be good either. He can still be perfectly good and be perfect love, there’s no real contradiction in my mind. I don’t want to offend anyone, because I know how strong beliefs can be. Its just my thoughts on the subject

 

[LA-girl]

I think what she means, (which is how I would see a perfect being as well) is that he has both good and evil and out of being both, he becomes perfectly good. Kind of like out of the darkness comes light. Only by being both can you truly be perfectly good. There’s no internal reference point to good if you are only good. If you cant know evil and have no evil, then you really cant be good either. He can still be perfectly good and be perfect love, there’s no real contradiction in my mind. I don’t want to offend anyone, because I know how strong beliefs can be. Its just my thoughts on the subject

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make much sense to me. How can you be perfectly good when you are in part evil as well? How can the phrase:
God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. mean that he is both light and darkness?

And I never said God does not know evil, as He is after all witnessing all the obvious evil happening on this planet. So he knows evil, but he is not a part of evil.

I mean by saying that God and Jesus is both good and evil, you would in a sense put them on our level, on humans sinful level. Then there really would not be a big difference between man and God. I mean where is the limit, when are someone perfectly good? If both God and men are both evil and good, would you say that man has the ability to become perfectly good as well?

Also the reason why Jesus came to earth according to the Bible was in order to become man's perfect sacrifice. Jesus had to live a sinless life, his blood had to be completely pure, or else His death would not have any significance for us.

 

[Alexp]

If both God and men are both evil and good, would you say that man has the ability to become perfectly good as well?

Nope, man doesn’t have the slightest chance but that is why he is God God can know evil intimately and still be perfectly good…that’s pretty impressive?

I honestly don’t really have an opinion either way. I just find it interesting. In my mind though a divine being can be completely sinless and perfectly good and still know the capacity of evil within them. Knowing and being perfectly good is derived from knowing and feeling what is perfectly evil (not just seeing evil). It doesn’t mean that he would have to be flawed or tainted, in fact, in my mind, it would make such a being even more perfect, if that’s possible.

I think its all a matter on syntax though. There really isn’t much difference because we both end up seeing him as a perfect being. Its just how we perceive evil to be either internalized or just observed (syntax mostly) – but we are saying the end point would be the exact same thing.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi everyone!

LAGirl, I'll address your post first. ...Um, the first thing to say is that I think Jesus spoke in parables because he understood well the importance of allowing people their own views. How we view the world, that a lot of us call 'God', goes with our sense of who we are within it -our identity -which is why religion can sometimes be a cause for division, like in the world today for example. (It's also why I think God, the Alpha and Omega, has the name "I am".)

And, I observe that I just don't have enough understanding and intelligence on the nature of God and perception to be able to explain really well how it's done to you or others ...I'm still in the process of understanding it fully my self 8O . So, if you find yourself diagreeing with my way of looking at things, just observe that I am still figuring things out, and continue seeing your own view and asking and finding your own answers etc.. I'd like to be able to be perfect (believe me) but I'm just not that smart.

One thing I do understand, is that Jesus did not alter people's sense of reality unless they already wanted this -that is, only if they themselves chose to look at the world differently already. Since you only change something when and if you find that it doesn't serve you to do and see things the same way anymore. And he just helped them along and helped them become more clear about the world according to the way they already had started to see it. ...All this means is that a person changes their perception of their own accord, first and foremost, according to who they believe themselves to be. -Being that there is no strict rule for what is the 'right' way to look at something other than that it defines who a person is.

If your values make a statement of who you are then you will only consider changing those values if you discover that they don't reflect who you are in the world anymore. ...and what this all means is that this does not have to do with 'who's beliefs are right', who is 'correct', but instead it is that one's beliefs reflect a person's sense of identity and they only consider modifying this definition of themself when this definition is discovered as being 'wrong' -until then, by any true definition of the term, their perception is 'right'.

In other words, a person will only change their way of looking at things when this isn't serving them. So, if your values serve you there is nothing to acknowledge except that they serve you and I'm not going to tell you that they are wrong, because my view is that there is more than one way for defining 'wrong and 'right'. -That is my idea of what 'right' is.

So, that's the first thing that I wanted to say.

The second thing is that , when I said 'God is BOTH good and evil' -I'm pretty sure that I added the words: -'and this is what is good' -onto this. This is just that, despite that I personally disagree with your beliefs, that my belief is that I have to change my view to see things from your perspective and only then will I have the right perspective. Since, to me, 'right' is being able to find the compromise between two different viewpoints, and 'wrong' is splitting sides up into my side is right and your side is wrong. ...So, I am not really good at knowing how to do all of this :lol: , but I try to do this as best as I can.