You want to know how to change your social anxiety / phobia?

[LittleMissMuffet]

post edited

 

[Alexp]

Re: sorry

Thanks for the kind words guys. You are exactly right worrydoll – I should have stated who I was and why it all means so much to me instead of trying to throw something down your throats I think I would have been offended too. I have learned something from this all and I will try to do/be better next time.

I have suffered from extreme sensitivity (understatement) and social phobia my entire life and that’s why I was so enthusiastic about it that I could help others. I have made a lot of good progress in my life, but still have a long way to go.

For me, it really was just knowing that I have control over my anxiety and understanding that I have direct power to change if I wanted to.

I will say one last thing to Pjam and I will leave it at that.

I do understand why I got flamed, and I don’t blame everyone who did - but what you did, Pjam, is virtually unforgivable in my book. Read back on my response to yours. Any human would have realized how much hurt and pain I felt…how I put myself at your mercy and other. Yet instead you used my weakness to further your point. You spat on me when I was down. You used me to bolster yourself and your position, when I put myself completely at your mercy! That is no different to a few select people in my real life that made me a social phobic. Maybe you didn’t even realize, but either way it shows incredible insensitivity and cruelty. I can forgive so much because I know I’m far from perfect, but to step on me and kick me while I’m down simply to bolster your self or your point is wrong and quite frankly…it’s disgusting.

Words are nice, but people who usually are defending themselves about helping people, aren't the ones actually helping anybody.

I honestly don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that. This whole thread is my action and it was my cause. It became a thread of defense of words because you made it that way!

To everyone else, thank you. I will take what I’ve learned here and try to do better.

 

[spurs]

alexp, i appreciate your post and your sentiment in wanting to help others.
i think all the villifying is uncalled for but it can be hard for people to understand what they haven't experienced themselves.
people tend to be overly sceptical of anyone who genuinely wants to help others because this is a rare quality. so while your post about "dying a million deaths" may have been melodramatic, it doesn't make it ingenuine and i know where you're coming from with this(i think that many paople really don't give a shit about others suffering if it is not directely linked to them, so it is easy to call out people who do care as insincere).

 

[Jack-B]

'what can i learn from this??'

Alexp, you are a friend of mine which is why i know you will understand my well intentioned, honest opinion.

Firstly, i liked your post. I understand what you are saying, i like your website also.

Secondly, i believe you forgot one of the biggest things that induces those responses you gave.... what others think of you. What others think of you is a conception in your mind. This conception, i feel, is quite strong when 'waiting' to hear what others have to say about you or your thoughts, that it distorts the way you see your self and how you view others. When anxiety is in our mind for any reason, we are hyper sensitive. We take our self too seriously and consequently exaggerrate our responses usually blaming others for our state of mind, when the cause of all of it came from within our own mind in the first place. If it weren't in a uncontrolled state, we would hardly notice such comments.

You obviously have a lot to offer this site. You have learned, how i have that you cant take away peoples suffering, they have to do that themselves. And for them to do that themselves they have to want to get better. Everyone on this site is at different levels of understanding, some just want to be listened to, others want to get angry about the whole thing and there are others who are better and want to learn more about their anxiety. I have learnt that offering advice when not asked for invites confrontation but this can be applied in certain cases ie if someone really trusts your opinion and believes that you can walk the walk or if you perceive it will be really beneficial for all concerned, either way, this is a good lesson in being skillful.

And for anyone else, 'what can i learn?' as a thought before reading a post, it focuses on the kindness of others in helping us, the reader, benefit from whatever is written.

If we are one of those people who have heard it all, read all the books, but are still suffering with anxiety, this clearly indicates we are not asking our self this question.

Great thread!

Jack

 

[cLavain]

Everyone on this site is at different levels of understanding, some just want to be listened to, others want to get angry about the whole thing and there are others who are better and want to learn more about their anxiety.

The implication is clear: "Only when people reach my level of understanding can progress be made." Such condescending arrogance might be warranted when debating mathematical axioms, but when it comes to how people are dealing with their problems..?

Here is something for you to consider. What if your golden path is not right for everyone? What if it can not be readily applied to every single human being on Earth?

Please understand, I do not question your motives or your sincerity in wishing to help. Like the religious people assailing me outside the local supermarket, I know most of them really want to save me from Hell. They are just misguided in their eagerness.

Neither do I wish you to stop posting. Some of the stuff you're saying makes sense. But please, stop labeling everyone who doesn't gobble up your every word as being on a different level of understanding and that they don't want to get better. Hey, maybe some of them are better already, having done their own thing? Possible?

If we are one of those people who have heard it all, read all the books, but are still suffering with anxiety, this clearly indicates we are not asking our self this question.

I will just let this sentence speak for itself. Suffice it to say, your higher level of understanding is put to good use. Yes, I know, you didn't use the words "higher" or "lower", choosing instead the newspeak version "different".

Here, I'll even prepare your reply for you: "Thanks for participating! Love your critisism! You're clearly on the the way to a deeper understanding of this. But you're still at the anger level and here's your problem...[fill in]...here's what you need to do...[fill in]..." Hope you have a sense of humour...

 

[Jack-B]

cLavain

he he. That certainly woke me up!

I didn't like 'my' response you gave. You can try again on this one if you wish, great banter!

allow me to explain:

Jack-B wrote:
Everyone on this site is at different levels of understanding, some just want to be listened to, others want to get angry about the whole thing and there are others who are better and want to learn more about their anxiety.

Everyone is at different levels of uderstanding- true. Some just want to be listened to - true. others want to get angry - true. there are others who are better ( feel better ) not in an 'im better than you kind of way' - true. how silly he he. Why do you choose to see arrogance, or is that what your mind is projecting onto 'Jack'? Implication clear, where???

cLavain wrote:

"What if your golden path is not right for everyone? What if it can not be readily applied to every single human being on Earth?"

Everyone has there own path, everyone has their own choices to make, we each live in our own subjective world. Not everyone can readily apply certain methods but again this depends on their mental capacity and where they are at. Everyone suffers and continues to suffer. People make their own choices.

cLavain wrote:

"stop labeling everyone who doesn't gobble up your every word as being on a different level of understanding and that they don't want to get better"

Everyone is on a different level of understanding - fact.
It's everyones innate desire to be happy isnt it? so everyone wants to be better, but how many people are happy or know how to be happy? what i was getting at is that people have to overcome their own pain and suffering themselves and to do this they have to want to learn from their experiences and others, otherwise, they will remain with their suffering.

cLavain wrote:

"Here, I'll even prepare your reply for you: "Thanks for participating! Love your critisism! You're clearly on the the way to a deeper understanding of this. But you're still at the anger level and here's your problem...[fill in]...here's what you need to do...[fill in]..." Hope you have a sense of humour... "

Jack:

Brilliant! ha ha, why am i laughing? Because you are not responding to 'me' you are responding to that arrogant Jack guy you so truely believe in. Where does that Jack exist? Who created him? Oh yeah, it was me, i'll take responsibility for your mind shall i? I am responsible for my actions of mind, my projections, i cant take yours, however painful you make them.

I think you will believe what you want to believe. And i guess that is true for you. I write this with a sense of whats going on in this guys mind? Whatever faults you see in others is not them anyway, its the faults of their negative thoughts not of the person. Interpret as you will.

Love Jack, really!

 

[Alexp]

Thanks spurs. Those simple words mean more to me than you probably know

Thank you Jack, As always you know I have the utmost respect for your opinion, even though we may not always agree

In fairness to jack, I don’t think he advocates one path. If this thread has taught us anything, its that we should try to be a little more open minded to what others believe or what works for them. Everyone knows its not about taking words by other people and believing them as gospel. Its about listening to all sorts of different people and finding what works best for you and incorporating what you feel is right after thinking about it on your own – not because someone says you should be a certain way and I’m sure Jack would agree with me on that too.

For me though, I think sensitivity comes before my anxiety and not the other way around. It’s the cause of my expectations and my anxiety. I worry so much about getting hurt by others, that I want to try so hard to be perfect all the time, which sets up my anxiety to protect me from getting hurt. You are right though, if I did stop worrying so much about other’s opinions it would stop the pain and the subsequent anxiety. One thing I can never change is my sensitivity though, but I can battle with my expectation level to more comfortable levels. If I keep telling myself that I don’t need to be perfect, that its okay to make mistakes and it doesn’t matter so much if someone doesn’t like me. I can then stop a large part of the reinforced pain (not all of it) which leads to my anxiety. I work on that every day and every day I see improvements. I know I will never be anxiety free (nor would I really want to be), but I do have the power to control it as best I can.

One last thing I have learned too is that sometimes it is okay to get angry if its appropriate. With me, when something used to go wrong, I would ALWAYS blame myself. The sensitivity would cause me to feel so much pain and the best way I knew how to deal with it was to bring it all inside and tell myself that I’m the scum of this world and everything is all my fault. I tell you though - one thing that did help me is that I now fight the battles when I truly believe I’ve been wronged. It helps because you CANT self correct and change yourself when its not even your fault. For example, how can I change myself and stop being 'arrogant' when it is so far from the truth? You will just feel continual guilt and have it lead to possible depression. I almost have to encourage myself to get angry when I feel I’ve truly been wronged, but I only do it when I really feel its appropriate and its not my fault. It makes a big difference and I’m not filled with unchangeable guilt. It also has the added bonus of stopping people from walking all over you like a doormat

 

[cLavain]

Jack,
Are you saying that we have no responsibility for how people interpret what we say? I say we do. We choose how we say things. I often regret my wording, in fact I regret the last paragraph of my previous post already.

Some just want to be listened to - true. others want to get angry - true

Sadly, it's sometimes not so much about what you want... Besides, I would say being angry and wanting someone to listen are not just phases you go through for most people, but a normal part of life.

Why do you choose to see arrogance

Maybe because of statements like this:

If we are one of those people who have heard it all, read all the books, but are still suffering with anxiety, this clearly indicates we are not asking our self this question.

Let me ask you directly:
Do you think it possible that other people can reach the same level of understanding as yourself and still not be happy or without anxiety?

Well, I do. In fact, I feel that sometimes too much understanding is counter-productive. Ignorance can be bliss. Someone can see the causes of their anxiety with great clarity and realize that one or more of those problems are unsolvable. Again, every person's situation is different and lack of progress doesn't automatically mean laziness or lack of understanding.

If this thread has taught us anything, its that we should try to be a little more open minded to what others believe or what works for them. Everyone knows its not about taking words by other people and believing them as gospel. Its about listening to all sorts of different people and finding what works best for you and incorporating what you feel is right after thinking about it on your own – not because someone says you should be a certain way...

I agree.

 

[samana]

Personally I think Alexp and Jack-B have some compelling points and arguments, and its sad to see a board full of people looking for help and insight putting their own board members down instead of contributing. First off, I don't understand where anyone got the initial impression that Alexp was saying what he had discovered was an easy fix. I believe he wrote that it wasn't. The hardest thing in this world is to understand ourselves and change ourselves. I try to change many of my bad habits and thoughts daily, but it often takes months or years to see any real results from my own efforts.

Just simply to bring something (whether good or bad) into 'habit' status within our minds, it takes approx. three weeks by most studies. Whether that is true, or just true for some things, it still goes to show that we are creatures of habit, who like routine, even if its bad. In essence, we are all constantly battling the urge to stay the same (even if its a painful state). From my personal experience, you have to come to a point in your mind where there is no return in order to have an effective change. And that is where I think we all run into problems right there. Its jumping completely out of our comfort zone into new territory in order to make a change in ourselves, which for those of us with anxiety, creates even more anxiety (which is a huge conflicting collision), since we DONT WANT anymore anxiety, and are trying to get further away from it. This tends to keep most of us in a 'wishing mode' since we are both trying to change, and stay away from any form of anxiety at the same time (which ultimately cannot work). I do this everyday. We all do. Hell, even John Mayors song "waiting on the world to change" touches on this.

It is interesting that we as humans have created the most unimaginable technologies, put robotic contraptions on mars, yet still are most difficult feat is solving ourselves.

Jack,
Are you saying that we have no responsibility for how people interpret what we say? I say we do. We choose how we say things. I often regret my wording, in fact I regret the last paragraph of my previous post already.

clavain,
We do have control over what we say and do, but how others decide to view us, interprit us, etc, is solely for their minds. Sure, advertisements would tell you that yes, we can cleverly word things to make people think a certain way, right? BUT, and THE big but, is that people already have a preset impression/perception/interpritation in their minds for everything. People will always hear what they want to hear, read what they want to read and see what they want to see. We all have tinted glasses on from the get-go. We all look for support where we already know it is to be found, and confirmation from those who believe the same things. If you look at this whole thread, it got spun out of context because everyone came in with their own perceptions, seeing what they wanted to see and ignoring that which they didn't want to see. It is human nature, but it also keeps us from being more open-minded. We choose how we say things, but it is always left for interpretation.

jack wrote:
Why do you choose to see arrogance

Maybe because of statements like this:

If we are one of those people who have heard it all, read all the books, but are still suffering with anxiety, this clearly indicates we are not asking our self this question.

Let me ask you directly:
Do you think it possible that other people can reach the same level of understanding as yourself and still not be happy? , no matter how persuasive it may be.

Everyone is at different levels of uderstanding- true. Some just want to be listened to - true. others want to get angry - true. there are others who are better ( feel better ) not in an 'im better than you kind of way' - true. how silly he he. Why do you choose to see arrogance, or is that what your mind is projecting onto 'Jack'? Implication clear, where???

I truly agree with you Jack, we are all on different levels of understanding or 'being' simply because these are our chosen levels of comfort at the present I suppose. None of us will make a change in our views or ways until we have convinced ourselves we are comfortable with it. Jack was not being discriminatory in any way in my opinion. We do not seek more truth until we are ready for it. It's not that we are dumber, its just that we are not ready. And there's good reasons not to be ready as well. I would not advise someone to go skydiving because its exhilarating and tell them they are ready without any training or review or supplies, etc.

We are all puzzling out ourselves together here on this message board, and its just that puzzling takes time. Some of us have been at it for years, some for only weeks. I've been at it for years and am still to puzzle myself out. I think I will die without fully ridding myself of my issues and understanding myself completely. I remember when I first discovered my anxiety disorder, all I wanted was some consoling and comfort, and to find as many people as I could with the problem so I didn't feel so idiotic and odd. Then I wanted to learn every inch of anxiety and depression completely and so I read everything possible. Then I passed that and was simply angry at my past, how I was raised, how frustrating it is for people to understand this or even acknowledge it. Then I probably went through some complete self-numbing and denial and now I am getting to the point where I understand that whatever it is that I have to do, I have to do it.

Psychologists, psychiatrists, and all of us here on this message board, are here to help eachother, but it is only ourselves that can change ourselves. This is all old hat for everybody I know, but I think its something we all forget in a world where everything else can be fixed by outside things. We can even change to another sex with the help of a surgeon, but we still are left to change our perceptions and interpritations alone. It is not a quick fix, an easy fix, or something we can leave for someone else to pick up and finish the task. That is what is so incredibly hard. Alexp had it right in my opinion. Our perceptions dictate how we interprit. And how we interprit dictates how we feel. And how we feel dictates our mood, or 'disorder' as we could call it as well, such as anxiety.

I know what I will be trying to do the rest of my life is trying to understand how i perceive things, so that I can understand how the rest of myself falls together, or apart, haha. Perception's an incredibly hard thing to change, but in my opinion, just the first step of understanding how you perceive things, can be enough to help, since truth and change come from opening ourselves to new understanding.

In closing I have one more thing I'd like to say to clavain. There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Your question to Jack about whether people can reach the same amount of knowledge, but not achieve happiness is interesting because you are right, there are many people who understand everything, yet gain nothing from it. Knowing, but not loving what you know, not applying what you know, will give you nothing in return. Just like all our calculus teachers told us in the past "Why are you here you may ask? what good will calculus ever do in my life?" Well...for some, it did nothing, and for those who chose to apply it, it did. All of us here are looking for support and insight, not insults and disrespect. We can all disagree and still respect eachother and I honestly believe that, and think its vital so we can learn from eachother instead of taking away from eachother.

Words are nice, but people who usually are defending themselves about helping people, aren't the ones actually helping anybody.

People who help are usually actually "down in the trenches" and not making claims about helping others.

And pjam...I think this constitutes as 'down in the trenches' because this is as far as any of us can go without doing brain surgery on eachother. Helping eachother online is the same as having a psychologist talk to you - just words of suggestions and insights and experiences being shared, thats all that can ever be done, the rest is up to us personally, with this particular kind of help.

Sorry this is a disgustingly long post!

 

[LA-girl]

First of all I have to say that no ,I don't question Alexp's good intention at all. I believe him when he says that he hates to see peoples misery and pain, and had an honest desire to try and help. And I think that many people in here might learn something useful and indeed can be helped.

There are a couple of things about your original post however that makes me react in a negative manner. First, although people have social phobia does not automatically mean that they are miserable, unhappy people who desperately have this need to be cured from their condition. Of course the majority of people come in here with a hope of getting better, or completely recovered, but some of us (like me) have come to terms with the fact that we have this condition and we have tried for years different advises, including the ones you just gave, and still our anxiety remains. And I think for us who have come to this stage (if I can use that phrasing), we get bothered when people say if you just do this and think like this, you will definately improve when I know that is not the case for me. We have been fed with this kind of info for years from doctors, articles etc... So I guess we're fed up about being constantly reminded that despite trying very hard to conquer this for years, our problems still remains. And that kind of makes me feel like an even bigger failure...I mean if it is such a successful way of treating this, I should have been almost cured by now. I guess it just makes me feel guilty for not having improved more than I have, like I haven't tried hard and worked hard enough to beat this thing. And if anything about this condition makes me depressed still it is just that, the feeling of guilt for having failed.
And yet, when I think back, I don't see how I could have done things differently... :roll:

For instance:

Truly believe that its okay to make mistakes or be socially imperfect and you will see your anxiety go down.

What upsets me a little about this is that you word it as it was a guarantee, a promise that if you just think this way, your anxiety (not might) but will go down. Like I said, I have done this way of thinking for years, but sadly it has not caused my level of anxiety to drop.
The weird thing is that for me exposing myself too much in anxiety-triggering situations leads to an increase in my anxiety rather than dropping it. The only thing that works for me so far is to actually limit my exposure or else I become completely worn out...and that definately don't help at all. So I guess we're all very different in here despite that we have the same diagnosis...what works for you might not work for me and the other way around. So I guess what i'm saying is bring out advices please, but don't give us promises like you will succeed if you just follow this or that advice.

But thanks for having a desire to help though, and like I said initiallly, many probably will find your advice very helpful!

(Now, after reading all the posts I can see that you have modified your view, so I guess this post of mine is rather redundant)

 

[cLavain]

Samana,

We do have control over what we say and do, but how others decide to view us, interprit us, etc, is solely for their minds. Sure, advertisements would tell you that yes, we can cleverly word things to make people think a certain way, right? BUT, and THE big but, is that people already have a preset impression/perception/interpritation in their minds for everything. People will always hear what they want to hear, read what they want to read and see what they want to see. We all have tinted glasses on from the get-go. We all look for support where we already know it is to be found, and confirmation from those who believe the same things. If you look at this whole thread, it got spun out of context because everyone came in with their own perceptions, seeing what they wanted to see and ignoring that which they didn't want to see. It is human nature, but it also keeps us from being more open-minded. We choose how we say things, but it is always left for interpretation.

Yes, I understand and agree with much of that, but don't you agree that it's also an easy way to deflect all critisism? For instance, my first reply was really just a reaction to alexp's simplified view, but the way I wrote it sounded like mockery and alexp got hurt. I was responsible for that, because of the way I phrased it. Another example: You wrote: "If you look at this whole thread, it got spun out of context because everyone came in with their own perceptions, seeing what they wanted to see and ignoring that which they didn't want to see." Is that true, or is it just your interpretation of what we said?

We do not seek more truth until we are ready for it. It's not that we are dumber, its just that we are not ready. And there's good reasons not to be ready as well.

There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. Your question to Jack about whether people can reach the same amount of knowledge, but not achieve happiness is interesting because you are right, there are many people who understand everything, yet gain nothing from it. Knowing, but not loving what you know, not applying what you know, will give you nothing in return. Just like all our calculus teachers told us in the past "Why are you here you may ask? what good will calculus ever do in my life?" Well...for some, it did nothing, and for those who chose to apply it, it did.

I'm sorry, but I can see that you do not understand what I'm saying. English is not my native language, so that might explain it. My point is that someone may find themselves in a situation where more truth/understanding/will/effort just isn't enough. Really, you don't know everyone else enough to make a statement like "its just that [they] are not ready". It sounds an awful lot like those missionaries who know the final truth... No, for some, "applying calculus" is just not the right answer.

 

[cLavain]

So I guess we're fed up about being constantly reminded that despite trying very hard to conquer this for years, our problems still remains. And that kind of makes me feel like an even bigger failure...I mean if it is such a successful way of treating this, I should have been almost cured by now. I guess it just makes me feel guilty for not having improved more than I have, like I haven't tried hard and worked hard enough to beat this thing. And if anything about this condition makes me depressed still it is just that, the feeling of guilt for having failed.

Exactly. Very well put, LA-girl.

 

[romeno82]

alexp your advice to me is just great.

The reason is almost always the same as well. You expect too much from yourself. Many of us expect social perfection or at least we want to make no social mistakes. We want so badly never to be seen as stupid or foolish, so we expect social perfection which leads to us beating ourselves up after every social interaction which then in turn leads to massive amounts of anxiety.

thats how the paradoxical state of us social-phobics is. this is how the vicious circle works. WE ARE IN A STALL SITUATION. here is to ask why wont we be seen as stupid or foolish. simple:the main cause is that we are scared to death to be left alone. to be avoided. to loose social status. BUT IN OUR CONDITION BY BEEING PERFECTIONIST WE REINFORCE THE PRESSURE ON US.

The reason is almost always the same as well. You expect too much from yourself. Many of us expect social perfection or at least we want to make no social mistakes. We want so badly never to be seen as stupid or foolish, so we expect social perfection which leads to us beating ourselves up after every social interaction which then in turn leads to massive amounts of anxiety.

Its rather simple when you think about it. Allow yourself social MISTAKES and imperfection. Change your perception. Tell yourself that you are going to make mistakes..its natural..but its nothing to worry about and then stop the pain of beating yourself up when you do make a mistake. You will stop reinforcing the pain that leads to anxiety. I will assure you right now you will see results straight away once you stop the self correction and it only gets better the longer you can work this strategy. Note that some anxiety is okay, it’s a way to keep us on our toes…but you need to find a better balance if its causing so much social pain and frustration.

a big thing in SP is perfectionism. thats what you are talking about alex, arent you?

i got alot better after gaving me the permission to make mistakes, to be perfect by being imperfect. damn it we have a hard life with SP and we even beat ourselves up for that. i think we are really cruel with ourselves.

pjam76 if you would use this great advice instead of insulting a user in a public forum, i think would be better for you.

cos that what alexp here described is a big key to reduce ALOT your anxiety.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Boy is this thread interesting!!!!!

I need more time!!!

...you see, I get the distinct feeling that if I read carefully through all the opinions here (all of which by the way are actually what is going on within my own mind!!! and represent different concerns and emotions that I am dealing with) that I will learn something really valuable and helpful. ...that if I can put them all together and come-up with some reconciliation between the different sides taken here, that I'll be doing the same for what is happening within my own mind already. -being that I'm actually currently juggling between solutions like Alex's but also my difficulty in properly applying them.

So, yeah, I'll read this through when it isn't so late at night (it's almost midnight here Down Under) and see what ideas I can put together.


...One thought that I have had though is that compassion and patience are really important. That, just as prejudiced people may dimiss us socially anxious people as being hopeless or lesser than them, that it is the ability to get rid of notions of status and thinking that some things are easy and therefore those who fail at these are stupid, that stops things from being hard -that compassion and patience are like the glue that holds the vision together. And that, perhaps there is a weired catch to things in that, changing habits and perceptions only becomes easy when we accept that it is difficult and because of this have full confidence that we are not weak when we are struggling and even appear to be 'failing'. That as soon as you accept the difficulty of the task fully, the task becomes easy. Maybe feeling good about who one is and not having beliefs of inferiority (or even superirority) are really important in allowing us to follow-through with our plans to change ourselves.

But it's late and I'm tired. So bye for now.

 

[Alexp]

Wow! Those are some very insightful and intelligent posts.

Perception and/or expectation, is a hard thing to change, but, in my opinion, is the one thing we do have the power to change in the chain of events that leads to anxiety.

I tried to make the distinction at first who I was specifically talking about because I knew to begin with that it wouldn’t help everyone. I think the distinction is whether your social anxiety is more guilt driven like mine is - Guilt driven in the sense that you beat yourself up after almost every social interaction for not saying the right thing or doing the right thing. Maybe you beat yourself up for not saying anything. I’m guessing it’s a solid percentage of people have strong guilt driven anxiety, but certainly not everyone who considers themselves to have social phobia/anxiety. If you are that type then I think the problem lies within your expectation of yourself. Lower that expectation – (the perfectionism)and tell yourself that you arnt perfect, that its not your fault if someone doesn’t like you, and you will start to feel less pain after social events and you stop beating yourself up as much. Essentially this will lower your body’s need to have extremely high anxiety to begin with.

This logic can be applied to other types too though. You have to ask yourself, what is causing the pain? Maybe instead of blaming yourself during or after social interaction, you get angry at others…maybe you want so much for others to treat you right, be nice, say the right things, that you get angry and extremely frustrated. Maybe its more anger-driven anxiety. You expect or want others to be nicer and/or better which leads to the pain and anxiety. Does that sound familiar to some people? If so the expectation is in others. You want others to be how you wish them to be and in turn you feel anger and pain and frustration which will in turn lead to anxiety. But it’s the same kind of logic as the guilt-driven except the expectation is external instead of internal. You have to lower your expectation of others and say its okay if they don’t do what you like or if they say something bad. Tell yourself you have no control over others and that’s there’s no need to get so angry or frustrated.

Obviously there are many people who have both types as well, and maybe the key is to work on both lowering their expectation of themselves and others around them. I assume most people have some degree of both. I think the key is to look at yourself and see where most of the pain comes from. Do you beat yourself up too much? Do you get angry at others too much? Do you do both?

If you have high anxiety, likely it’s due to either high expectation of yourself and/or others. Look closely at where your expectation is both internally and externally and try to work at lowering it if you feel it’s a little out of whack.

It is difficult, but in my honest opinion, its realistically possible to change what you expect from yourself and/or the world and I think its realistic to believe you can change your own anxiety to some degree.

 

[Jack-B]

My teacher said that negative thoughts of others are what we are really scared of, not the person.

Negative thoughts are part of the mind, and are not the self. The body and mind are the valid basis for designating the self but neither are the actual self.

Anyway, the negative thoughts of our mind and others minds are what we are scared of, not the person. A person with a controlled mind has no negative thoughts because their mind is filled with say love. So we would have no valid reason to be scared of anyone who has a mind of love.
Imagine a world where everyone loved each other, how could anxiety of people continue to exist? Is social phobia just phobia of certain negative thoughts?

Of course we dont know what appears to others minds, yet we can say that negative thoughts of others such as (criticism, blame, anger, jealousy etc) are really just the play of their uncontrolled mind, they have no freedom, so they are deceived because their self really wants peace. So there is nothing for us to fear, because the other person is not really in control, they are prisoner to their own mind. Arent we all? If we can accept that they have no freedom of thought whilst distinguish the person who is being decieved, we can see the person from their negative thoughts and not be afraid, amazing!

So essentially what i'm saying is that fear of these negative thoughts is wasted because not only are these thoughts non intentional (who in their right mind wants a negative mind??) they are also fleeting and are not really the person anyway. I feel we all know deep down we are not our anxiety or fear yet we still continue to identify our self as our thoughts and others as their thoughts.

Negative thoughts attack our self but are not our self, say boo to negative thoughts he he

Jack

 

[samana]

And I think for us who have come to this stage (if I can use that phrasing), we get bothered when people say if you just do this and think like this, you will definately improve when I know that is not the case for me. We have been fed with this kind of info for years from doctors, articles etc... So I guess we're fed up about being constantly reminded that despite trying very hard to conquer this for years, our problems still remains.

I know where you are coming from lagirl, and I think that what you are talking about is resigning to your anxiety and somewhat accepting and befriending it in order to coexist with it and not constantly fight it, in order to live on more peacefully. But I don't think its probably the final answer. I hate what I have been fed in the past by doctors and books and psychiatrists and biofeedback alike...it all seems to be stuff that only scratches the surface of my problems and never gets down to the root of any of my problems. They tell you to just breathe deeper or distract yourself to rid the anxiety, but that is just a temporary solution in my opinion. It's going to come right back all the same the very next time, and we are going to be fighting it just the same. So I too, got sick of being fed remedies. But then I realized that I still have the potential to lower my anxiety. I am incredibly sensitive like I'm guessing a lot of us here are, so I know I will always always be anxious and I can't fight that innate part of who I am. So I realized that trying to understand and correct my expectations (much like alexp is talking about I think) is going to help my anxiety. I don't think cure is the right word for something like this because anxiety is not a disease, just a state of mind in my opinion. So I can never cure it, just change it to where it is more of a 'logical' anxiety than my extreme anxiety that I have at present. I think somehow one way or the other we all had many experiences in our past (due to our childhood raising, friends, etc) that got us to this point of anxiety that has made us 'place' it upon all our reactions/feelings now. Its like a pavlov thing... the can opens and the dog drools just hearing it. We are all maybe placing more anxiety on situations or ourselves than what is logically needed because we are not correctly discerning the actual amount that is needed or not needed in a situation. So we are just like that dog...weve learned to be very anxious from our past and possibly some genetics involved, and now its very hard to get rid of it. But I think trying to understand this and ourselves brings us back to a more logical standpoint of our anxiety slowly over time.

 

[samana]

My point is that someone may find themselves in a situation where more truth/understanding/will/effort just isn't enough. Really, you don't know everyone else enough to make a statement like "its just that [they] are not ready". It sounds an awful lot like those missionaries who know the final truth... No, for some, "applying calculus" is just not the right answer.

clavain-
I think what I am trying to say is that we can all know everything we need to know to change, but doing nothing with what we know produces nothing. Like I said in my last post, I don't think its as much of a cure as more of a clearer view that is what is going to help in the end. Anxiety is a natural emotion that we don't need to get rid of, we just (people like us on this board) need to bring it into a clearer context in our minds. So much easier said than done of course...I have in the past been incredibly anxious performing in front of people, but now I am able to tell myself that it is reasonable to be anxious, but that the situation at hand is so temporary and just a small speck of my life, and that helps to put my anxiety in check a bit more.

Yes, I understand and agree with much of that, but don't you agree that it's also an easy way to deflect all critisism?

I don't think its about deflecting criticism since criticism is the other person's reaction to what you have said/done. What I mean is, we decide our words and actions and then we can also decide whether the criticisms that followed were warranted or not. Sometimes just like you said, people don't understand eachother as they would wish to be understood because perceptions and interpritations can be off. It's not about casting aside or deflecting criticism but it is trying to see the real meaning beyond what we initially interprit, if that makes sense.

"If you look at this whole thread, it got spun out of context because everyone came in with their own perceptions, seeing what they wanted to see and ignoring that which they didn't want to see." Is that true, or is it just your interpretation of what we said?

Haha, this one got me to smile - its true you got it right...its my perceptions along with everyone elses. We all have them

 

[samana]

i got alot better after gaving me the permission to make mistakes, to be perfect by being imperfect. damn it we have a hard life with SP and we even beat ourselves up for that. i think we are really cruel with ourselves.

That's totally how I feel too Romeno...its just that clearer more forgiving view on our anxiety that helps us to let up on ourselves more and more. Sometimes finding that clearer more logical view of anxiety (instead of a more emotional one say) and trying to be patient and forgiving with ourselves is so damn hard. Like you said, we are probably all incredibly cruel with ourselves and expecting way too much, or just expecting what is not reasonable for some reason or another.

Maybe instead of blaming yourself during or after social interaction, you get angry at others…maybe you want so much for others to treat you right, be nice, say the right things, that you get angry and extremely frustrated. Maybe its more anger-driven anxiety.

Alex- That I think is more true for me personally... I think I actually have both guilt and anger when it comes to social situations. I get frustrated with myself that I can't think of the 'right' things to say, and I also get frustrated with others when they are not giving me any room to be anything less than perfect (strange looks etc at me). But maybe that's just part of my entire perception that is off, and they might not be judging me as much as they think they are, or maybe I'm not being as stupid as I think I am. Probably why I am also being more anxious than I should be, because I am not seeing the situation in a more realistic and forgiving context.

 

[samana]

Hey Jack that is some really interesting stuff you said...I have some questions...
Aren't thoughts what make us who we are in essence....a combination of all our thoughts create how we see ourselves and the world? In that case, wouldn't detaching from negative thoughts, detach us from part of ourself? I mean, I've thought about this a lot in the past as it seems you have too ... it seems what I have come to think is that everyone always has a good intention for everything they say and do. Good is left for interpritation here. Like you said '(who in their right mind wants a negative mind??)'. Even people who steal/murder etc think that they are gaining something good from it for themselves, and that's why they do it (they don't do it to gain something bad is what I mean, even though it will be bad for the recipient of the act). So our intentions with anxiety too, they are also perhaps this perception we have that it is good to be anxious because we are avoiding something bad from happening. So as long as we see it as 'good', we are going to keep reinforcing it (like alex said I think- that we are going to reinforce ourselves to be more and more cautious etc). I think I am getting a little side tracked from my question ...um... I guess my question is, what is a person without thoughts? Still a person with 'good' intentions and someone who is seeking peace like you said, which I agree with... but if we have no freedom of thought, then how can we have freedom to tell ourselves not to pay attention to negative thoughts, or any thoughts? Just wondering your thoughts on this