What RELIGION are you?

Zipper

Well-known member
Zosima said:
It is "force flooding", because the ONE will inflict this suffering on us whether we like it or not. Even if we yield ourselves, we are doing it under the threat that if we don't we will only suffer more. That's blackmail.

& how are we supposed to "willingly yield ourselves" anyway ? Will bad things cease to happen to me if I "willingly yield" myself ? Will all my suffering come to an end ?!
Zipper said:
Anxiety is proper, but avoidance is not.
If you had anxiety about entering a room which was occupied by an axe-wielding maniac, would it be improper to avoid entering the room ?!
God threatens terrible things if we will not be joyful. Suffering and anxiety never ends, but the joy begins to overwhelm all other emotions when God's judgment operates on us, transfiguring us and drawing us higher up and deeper in to the real. The ONE is not safe, but he is virtuous. C.S. Lewis's "Great Divorce" illustrates this NeoPlatonist concept.
 

Reholla

Well-known member
Zosima said:
God threatens terrible things if we will not be joyful. Suffering and anxiety never ends, but the joy begins to overwhelm all other emotions when God's judgment operates on us, transfiguring us and drawing us higher up and deeper in to the real.
So God wants us to be joyful does He ?? - Then maybe He should stop plagueing us with suffering & anxiety. & God inflicts terrible things even when we are joyful.[/quote]


once again, this is a very cynical way to think. Your mindset is quite possibly causing you to think the worst about God, and since you do, why would you believe in a God so terrible?

Well, that's because the god your describing doesnt exist. I believe God wants us to be joyful, yes, but joyful in accordance to His will. (not our will be done) And in many ways i am most thankful for this. It takes off a lot of burden. (if you let Him). God doesn't "plague" us with struggles. Sure, i would think this if I didnt have faith that there was a purpose behind all these things. But there is. You only see one small portion of the big picture. God knows what hes doing. How do you grow as an individual if you are not challanged?

I dont know if you (Zosima) believe in God but if you don't it could explain a lot. CONTRARY to popular belief, not all Christians believe in God just to have something to believe in. I read in few posts ago that some one was just going to pray, even though they didnt believe in God, cause they felt like there was nothing else that worked. That isnt necessarily a bad thing, but please dont believe in God for your own selfish reasons. Even though i do believe that when Jesus is all you have, youll find that Jesus is all you need.

but ANYWAY, back to the point. Zosima, if you dont believe in God, then you really shouldnt be arguing from the stand point of "God inflicts all these bad things on us"....ok OBVIOUSLY if you dont think God exists, this cant be possible, so why even bring it as part of your point. If you do believe in God im happy for you, but I have just seen others do this, and i am just pointing it out for any one else.
 

Lavinia84

Well-known member
Ok, fisrt thing...Zosima's suggestion that the Big Bang was God orgasming.

There is an Egyptian creation story the Heliopolitan Creation Myth.
In this myth a form of the sun god Atum "the hidden one" (The sun when its night and is not seen) was alone. He masturbated and his sperm generated two gods Shu(air) and Tefnut(moisture), these two gods then used sexual reproduction to create other gods, and sexual reprosuction became the nrom thereafter.

Next...Akhenaten.

Did Akhenaten convert anyone, yeh, probably some people, however there is no archaeological evidence that the Aten cult continued after the reign of Tutankhamun, either as a public or private cult.

What about the Aten believers from Before Akhenaten?
There were none! Aten was not a god per se. The Aten is the name of the sun disc, it was a symbol of Re, like the cross is a symbol of the Christian religion. Its like asking what about all the people who worshipped the cross before Jesus...there weren't any (besides which christians don't worship the cross). Akhenaten, it is thought, wanted to pray to the sun, but not by any of its traditional polytheistic names, so he used the name of the sun disc itself.

Was the theology eradicated, unknown. No evidence of its continuance.

Where did Akhenaten get his idea? Two good theories I've ever heard:

Akhenaten's father was Amenhotep III. He lived a long time and had many foreign wives. Some of these we know came from Mesopotamia, a region where the Sun god was the cheif deity. This would also allow for Hebraic influences. However we know of no Hebrew princesses in the Royal harem at that time.

Its also been noted that Akhenaten never appears with his father as a child on monuments, instead a (presumably elder) brother Tutmosis is shown. It was tradition at the time to name the crown prince after his grandfather, who was Tutmosis IV (so the kings for awhile went Tutmosis-Amenhotep-Tutmosis-Amenhotep etc). Tutmosis disappears from monuments (which usually idicates his death) and Akhenaten(Amenhotep IV) appears as co-regent. This theory also takes into account the weird art of Akhenatens reign. It suggests Alkenaten was in some way deformed and so was kept out of the public eye as a child (normally all sons would appear on monuments) its uggests perhaps he was sent away, possibly to Mesopotamia where he learned about the supremacy of the Sun god. It is thought when he became king, because he felt rejected he banned the other cults and initiated the Aten cult, because its was HIS god. It the Aten religion the King, Akhenaten was the one to whom you addressed prayers, you could not pray TO Aten, only to the King, who was Aten's earthly representative, and based on the location of his tomb, Akhenaten thought after death he would be reborn as Aten.
Akhenaten is in egyptian, made up of three words Akh-en-aten

It litereally means Soul-of-Aten, where Akh is one of the Egyptian conceptions of the soul of a person, their spiritual manifestation.

The idea of Horus/Shu/Re as aspects I don't think is right. I think he refers to them because he lacked adaquete language to express his ideas. I mean the word 'shu' could refer to the function of the god Shu, or it could be trying to draw an analogy, using words that people familiar with the traditional pantheon would understand.
Har-akhti could mean he is describing Aten as the king of the horizon.
The idea of the Trinity is an early Christian concept, not Hebrew, so no connection there. Also the Trinity does not make each member an aspect, but a person. This may seem like simply playing with words, but its not, but it takes a bit of explaining, if you want I can tell you, but not right now :) Kinda tired.

Where did I get these interpretations? A lot of reading, both of secondary sources (books written by historians) and primary sources(reading the heiroglyphic inscriptions, excavation reports etc)


Also keep in mind, its very easy to look at Akhenatens religion and see what is familiar to you, we are used to monotheistic religions, so some of it is reading what we want to see into the history. This is our bias, I'm simply trying to stay as obhective as possible and allow for the fact that someone living at that time might not see monotheism in Atenism, espcially since the only other documented case at the time were the Hebrews, and the only evidence of their monotheism is the Torah, which was not composed until the 6th Century BC. Akhenaten lived in the 14th Century BC, thats 800 years apart!
 

cLavain

Well-known member
If anything, this debate has strengthen my conviction that complete rejection of every religion is the only sensible alternative for a thinking person. After 30 pages and more than 400 posts, no believer has come close to providing proof of their claims.

As you are dodging those difficult questions, do you ever stop to think why?
 

shovelhead

Active member
cLavain said:
no believer has come close to providing proof of their claims.

And no non-believer has proved their claims... I guess thats why they are called beliefs.. And these debates rarely get anywhere :wink:
 

shovelhead

Active member
lol,agnostism is fine, I did admit to being agnostic myself earlier (about two pages back)...

I got the impression he was an atheist... sorry if I misnderstood???

EDIT: Although I don't see why anyone has to prove anything to anyone else... By using the word 'Belief' by definition means it cannot be proven otherwise it would not be called a belief...
 

shovelhead

Active member
Zosima said:
Yes; actually I checked on that after posting my post & before I saw your response, so sorry for failing to see where you were coming from. :wink:

I guess I give mixed messages too... As it is rather confusing when I call myself an agnostic Jew.. I guess I am a practicing Progressive Jew as I like the precepts of the religion and choose to support it, plus the traditions practiced in my childhood are part of me whatever I believe. But at heart I am agnostic...
 

dazedandconfused

Well-known member
Because no one can really prove or disprove the existance of a higher, immortal intelligence to back up the concepts and ideals behind their religion (or lack of one), this is an unendable debate.
Until there comes a time when absolute proof comes by to show us if there is or isn't a God, we will never know for certain.
In the mean time, it is pointless to point out flaws in the other side's argument, because those exact same flaws are in your side of the argument.
 

Dancer

Member
Zosima said:
Atheism = belief that there is no God.

Agnosticism = no belief that there is a God, & no belief that there isn't.

Atheism is just as irrational as a belief in God.

I'm afraid I can't let you get away with that one.
Contrary to popular belief, Agnosticism isn't a halfway point between theism and atheism; infact it's compatible with both.

This should clear up any confusion you have:
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm

However, following your definition of Agnosticism, let's think about this.
There's no evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists, but there's no evidence against it either. So would it be irrational to not believe in it?
How about Zeus and all those other greek gods?
How about a gigantic invisible cheese ball that watches over us?
See what I'm getting at?
 

cLavain

Well-known member
Thanks to Dancer for clearing that one up!

I guess I'm an agnostic atheist. A creating force can not be completely ruled out, but since there is no available evidence, I see no point in believing as I would basically just be guessing.

My quarrel is not with deists, but with those who claim that their religion is the right one. Christianity is no more likely than Islam, Hinduism, Norse myths, the flying Spaghetti Monster, the Invisible Pink Unicorn or NeoPlatonism. They are all based on circular reasoning and a number of unwarranted assumptions. I have repeatedly asked why someone should believe in one religion and not any of the others, but - tellingly - no one feels like picking up the gauntlet.

I'd like to end with this quote:
Atheism is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
 

young

Well-known member
Scientology! It's the only religion, and you are all glibs for not following this one...

Now, back to disappearing again... carry on...
 

cLavain

Well-known member
young said:
Scientology! It's the only religion, and you are all glibs for not following this one...

Now, back to disappearing again... carry on...

Hey, it seems we have Tom Cruise among us!
 

nedkelly

Well-known member
This is why religon should never be spoken of in forums..everyone ends up fighting :( Not everyone is ever going to come to the same conclusion(belief). So it should be just let be.
I believe in what i believe in..but i don't need to tell everyone about it.
Use each one's own religon for themselves only!!!!!
 

cLavain

Well-known member
nedkelly said:
This is why religon should never be spoken of in forums..everyone ends up fighting :( Not everyone is ever going to come to the same conclusion(belief). So it should be just let be.
I believe in what i believe in..but i don't need to tell everyone about it.
Use each one's own religon for themselves only!!!!!

Who's fighting? :)

Anyway, I've never really understood this 'I have the right to believe anything I want to believe' attitude. Doesn't it make more sense to believe what is actually true, or if the truth is unknown, then at least what is most probable? The alternative looks a lot like pure stubborness. :? I would appreciate it if someone pointed out flaws in my beliefs, because then I could adjust my beliefs accordingly. Yeah, yeah, I know, no one likes to be wrong...
 

nedkelly

Well-known member
Hey', i have a very open mind about why we are here, and is there a god etc etc.? I just hate it though when i say to someone ...look i am not interested in your preaching etc, and they won't leave it alone, or they don't practice what they preach. I know there are many out there who are not like this, but i have not come across many like that unfortunately. Maybe fighting was too strong a word. Just find religous debates a bit frustrating i guess, as many i have seen in the past have been really vicious,(this one is not as vicious i know)! but they never seem to reslove much. Interesting to some though, just not my cup of tea i guess.
I suppose i have always found religon a bit of a touchy subject, from past experiences. Funny though, i am a very spiritual person, with no defenite belief! :) Tending towards not believing in god though.
 

Zipper

Well-known member
yetisbabe said:
I agree with this, but I also like to see why other people believe in what they do and come to the conclusions that they do. I love reading everything that everyone has to say. And apart from a few little digs, which in my opinion are always harmelss, there is no fighting. Its all done with good grace and lots of humour. Keep it up guys, I'm learning a lot.
Thank you Miss Yeti!

You know, Neo-Platonism is not much more than science with an optimistic and positive attitude. We investigate and explore the world, and what we find, we put within an optimistic mental framework, that says: There is meaning to suffering, there is value in beauty, and there can be birth and rebirth. The one is dancing through this world, spreading light, and smiles, and sweet smells, and innocent joy. Divine care makes beauty out of ugly things. Neoplatonism is about experiencing life with joy and wonder and hope.

Obviously, there are no penalties attendant to non-belief. Nor are there penalties for evil (rather pedagogical correction). Nor are there rigid rules (like forbidding thought crimes or homosexuality).

Nor is there soul crushing dogma like "we deserve to be injured," "we are worthless," "only the priest can teach me what I need to know," "God's angry with me," "God's going to injure me," "God can't pardon without being appeased with the blood of an innocent" etc. etc. etc.
 

cLavain

Well-known member
So...basically New Age, then? :)

Sounds good, Zipper, but don't pretend it's science. Your theory is based on an unverifiable assumption (God's existence), and I can see no way to test it against empirical data. Thus, it's basically science in the same way creationism / intelligent design is science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
 
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