Is CBT Just a Load of B?

Argamemnon

Well-known member
Is CBT Just a Load of B?
What if you could just forget about all that complex cognitive challenging, understanding of logical fallacies and the mental demand this asks of the clinician working in the room? A new paper out in the latest Clinical Psychology Review suggests that maybe you can. Richard Longmore and Michael Worrell have a provocative paper (can't make a link) entitled: Do we need to challenge thoughts in cognitive therapy?

..... is the direct, explicit modification of maladaptive cognitions a necessary or sufficient intervention in CBT? Hayes (2004) identified three empirical anomalies in the CBT outcome literature. First, component analyzes do not show that cognitive interventions provide added value to the therapy. Second, CBT treatment is often associated with a rapid, early improvement in symptoms that most likely occurs before the implementation of any distinctive cognitive techniques. Third, measured changes in cognitive mediators (the thoughts and beliefs held by the cognitive model to underpin disorder) do not seem to precede changes in symptoms.

Longmore and Worrell take us through a range of depressive and anxiety disorders including OCD and provide research showing that behavioural components are as effective if not more effective than the CT component. In other words leaving out cognitive challenging doesn’t make a lot of difference to outcome. I would have to say the paper appears pretty convincing and it will be interesting to see what scholarly refutation to this is raised. Studies on behavioural activation by Jacobson et al in the mid nineties raise some interesting questions.


Jacobson et al. (1996) study has potentially serious implications for both the theory and practice of CBT for depression. In practical terms, behavioral activation is simpler and more cost effective, both in the training of therapists and delivery to patients. Further, they suggest that efficacy of behavioral interventions in the trial must lead to doubt regarding the significance of cognitive factors in the etiology and maintenance of depression.

This study is currently being replicated and preliminary results suggest:

Here, it is stated that Behavioural Activation proved as effective as antidepressant medication, and that both produced superior outcomes to cognitive therapy, which was no more effective than the pill placebo condition. Given that the Washington University study purports to be the largest outpatient therapy trial for depression yet undertaken, these would appear to be perplexing results for the proponents of cognitive therapy as a treatment for depression. However, putting aside the comparison with BA, the Washington results would seem to contradict many previous studies which have shown CT to be equally effective as pharmacotherapy as a treatment for moderate depression and severe depression. Therefore, it will be necessary to wait for the publication of the study's data before its full implications can be assessed.

On a practical level the behavioural stuff is so much easier to learn and to implement that the CT stuff. My observation as a supervisor is that it takes quite some time for beginning psychologists to become really competent at the cognitive challenging aspects of CBT.

The review also looks at the rapid early response debate. Reviews of CBT for depression suggest that a majority of the patients showed significant improvement in the first four weeks.

…… initial improvement was unlikely to be explained by cognitive modification techniques, and concluded instead that non specific factors mediated the majority of the improvement seen in CBT.

So maybe after all the non-specific factors that at the end of the day make for change. The therapeutic alliance seems to be making a comeback in the cognitive therapies from a number of angles.

The final aspect of the review looks at whether cognitive variables actually mediate therapeutic change. They again suggest there is limited support.

Meanwhile, a variety of studies has shown that cognitive change is an outcome of other treatments, to the same extent as in CBT. Jacobson et al (1996) suggest that difficulty identifying cognitive mediators of therapeutic change may reflect the poor quality of measures of beliefs and attitudes. Nevertheless, an important element of the rationale for cognitive interventions that changes in cognition mediate therapeutic change in CBT currently lacks empirical support.

I think what I find most interesting is that both pharmacotherapy and exposure alone treatments appear to produce cognitive changes the same as CBT.

Given how standard CBT has come to dominate the therapy delivered by psychologists and other therapists worldwide this paper is both worrying and challenging. CBT holds itself out to be empirically validated therapy and it will be interesting to see how it goes about explaining all of this. Probably it will also give a certain amount of schadenfreude for those who see CBT as Orwellian thought police.

BTW: No saying I told you so from the third wavers.

February 23, 2007 | Permalink

source: In the Room: Is CBT Just a Load of B?
 

lyricalliaisons

Well-known member
CBT didn't work for me because my thoughts are not the full problem. I tried to explain it to my therapist & she told me I was wrong. As if I don't know myself & she somehow knows me better than i know myself. I've been dealing with this my entire life. I truly don't understand what's going on in a lot of social situations which is a big cause for the fear I experience. I think it works for a lot of people because their problem is only their thoughts, for the most part. For someone like me, whose problem does not lie with their thoughts, it's not helpful at all, unfortunately. Medication isn't much help, either, for that matter.
 

NothingElseMatters

Well-known member
CBT didn't work for me because my thoughts are not the full problem. I tried to explain it to my therapist & she told me I was wrong. As if I don't know myself & she somehow knows me better than i know myself. I've been dealing with this my entire life. I truly don't understand what's going on in a lot of social situations which is a big cause for the fear I experience. I think it works for a lot of people because their problem is only their thoughts, for the most part. For someone like me, whose problem does not lie with their thoughts, it's not helpful at all, unfortunately. Medication isn't much help, either, for that matter.

thats y i don't trust therapists...its not that they dont do their job.its just that they only know ONE way,THEIR way and if u dont get well they blame u and not the therapy
 

sabbath9

Banned
The cognitive therapy part of CBT is flawed. Challenging your thoughts and feelings doesn't work. Yes, it's useful to know that some of our thoughts are "irrational". But trying to correct these thoughts is problematic. ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) approaches these thoughts and feelings, not as something to be changed, but as something to accept and eventually embrace. ACT makes CBT obsolete, I'm sure it won't be long before CBT is totally discredited and abandoned.
 
The cognitive therapy part of CBT is flawed. Challenging your thoughts and feelings doesn't work. Yes, it's useful to know that some of our thoughts are "irrational". But trying to correct these thoughts is problematic. ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) approaches these thoughts and feelings, not as something to be changed, but as something to accept and eventually embrace. ACT makes CBT obsolete, I'm sure it won't be long before CBT is totally discredited and abandoned.

CBT works wonders for me! If I'm depressed I can easily flip my mood around in a matter of minutes!
 

sabbath9

Banned
CBT works wonders for me! If I'm depressed I can easily flip my mood around in a matter of minutes!

How exactly do u do that? So you never have depression anymore? You can "flip" all the thoughts and emotions that you think you don't like? Now you can speak in front of a large audience and not feel any anxiety?

Didn't you post the below quote just a few months ago? I guess you've learned CBT "flipping" recently then.

freestylemonster said:
I missed 10 hours of my college classes yesterday JUST BECAUSE I was too depressed to get out of my bed.
 
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FOR REAL

Banned
cbt or counselling was never any good for me, because everything they said, i already knew.

ive went over these thoughts a billion times,(trying to be positive) but whatever way i look at it, i cant get through or over 'THE WALL'
 

Noca

Banned
The cognitive therapy part of CBT is flawed. Challenging your thoughts and feelings doesn't work. Yes, it's useful to know that some of our thoughts are "irrational". But trying to correct these thoughts is problematic. ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) approaches these thoughts and feelings, not as something to be changed, but as something to accept and eventually embrace. ACT makes CBT obsolete, I'm sure it won't be long before CBT is totally discredited and abandoned.

CBT exposure therapy mixed with medication is the best treatment available for SA. Through exposures I am now able to make phone calls and im no longer afraid of eye contact. Im also able to talk to strangers now. Im still working on it and hope to have SA eventually in full remission.
 
How exactly do u do that? So you never have depression anymore? You can "flip" all the thoughts and emotions that you think you don't like? Now you can speak in front of a large audience and not feel any anxiety?

Didn't you post the below quote just a few months ago? I guess you've learned CBT "flipping" recently then.

Well the anxiety part I have trouble with, but with depression it's easy...If I'm thinking "Gah I have no friends!!" I just think to myself stuff like "Oh well, it's my own fault", "my msn friends like me" and stuff, then I distract myself from the negative thoughts by singing a happy song and replacing the lyrics with "meow" haha
 

Livingwithoutlivin

Well-known member
What we do not understand persist, it keeps bothering us, what we do not understand is what we cannot control, what we cannot control is what we do not understand, if we don't understand something, then we don't know it, we don't know what the hell it is that makes it so unbearable, we just know that we want to resist it. A lot of people hate math, because they don't understand it, they can't control something that they don't understand, you can't know math if you don't understand it, you can't understand math if you don't figure it out, and see what it is that you don't undersand

Hence, we can't control or stop anxiety, if we don't understand what is making it keep bothering us, when we aren't in an anxious situation, if somebody disrespected us, and our life experience tells us, that a person should only be disrespected when they do something wrong- that would justify us being treated bad- and we would learn to change what we did wrong. But if somebody treats us like trash, and we don't even know why, then guess what? We are going to keep thinking about it, it's gonna keep haunting us, until we understand what the truth of the matter was. The only way to make something stop haunting you, is to go back, and see the truth- other people are not always rational, sometimes they want to make others feel bad, because they don't understand karma
 
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