If there were no consequences or accountability

Without regulation and consequence we'd return to our natural state of being.

Morality is largely a comfort induced by-product that has a place in systems that are regulated and controlled, but not so much in the chaotic natural world. And when I say ''comfort'' I mean not having to fear for your life by being eaten or murdered at any time. There is no right or wrong in nature, only instinct, desire and opportunity.

And if regulations and consequence stop to control people, it's highly likely that with time all those habits would return. We are, after all, still just a bunch of clever animals.

We have rules and laws for a reason. Self domesticating if you will.
 
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MsBuzzkillington

Well-known member
What habits are you thinking of? Because are weren't savage beats. Chimpanzees are not savage beasts. They have no rules or laws and they aren't maniacs, same with the rest of the animal kingdom. If there were no consequences, why would we be raping, murdering maniacs? I don't think much would change, people just would be more open about their "wrong" doings.

I wonder about the differences between never having consequences or suddenly having them taken away. If there were no more consequences for stealing (well law consequences) people would go nuts and steal a bunch of expensive stuff. But then no one would buy anything again, people wouldn't get paid at their jobs... nothing would have real value, money would have no value. So in a way, no matter what you do there are still going to be consequences. I would imagine that there would be some kind of order of things to keep people civil, other than just the law.

The idea of ownership and having things is what created a lot of problems I think, as far as stealing and crime is concerned.

A pretty interesting topic to consider.
 

Rembrandt Broam

Well-known member
Yes, well, without rules and laws they'd be capable of so much more. I think I would be scared to death of life without them.

You don't even need to remove rules and laws to see this. Look at what the nazis did in WWII, or the even more recent events in places like the Balkans, or the mass rapes that take place in some African countries today. The thing is, there's nothing intrinsically evil about Germans, or Serbs or Africans. They're just like anyone else, which means that under the right circumstances that nice guy who lives next door to you could be pushing Jews into a gas chamber or raping the wives and daughters of his enemy into submission.

The veneer of society is perilously thin, and what lurks underneath can be far more unpleasant than we'd like to think.
 
What habits are you thinking of? Because are weren't savage beats. Chimpanzees are not savage beasts. They have no rules or laws and they aren't maniacs, same with the rest of the animal kingdom. If there were no consequences, why would we be raping, murdering maniacs? I don't think much would change, people just would be more open about their "wrong" doings.

I wonder about the differences between never having consequences or suddenly having them taken away. If there were no more consequences for stealing (well law consequences) people would go nuts and steal a bunch of expensive stuff. But then no one would buy anything again, people wouldn't get paid at their jobs... nothing would have real value, money would have no value. So in a way, no matter what you do there are still going to be consequences. I would imagine that there would be some kind of order of things to keep people civil, other than just the law.

The idea of ownership and having things is what created a lot of problems I think, as far as stealing and crime is concerned.

A pretty interesting topic to consider.

The animal kingdom knows quite a bit of savage cruelty that often leads to death. Perhaps not on a mass scale, but it happens. It's by no means a paradise. Compared to the average animal's struggle our lives are a pretty much paradise. The fact that that obesity is a general problem is testimony of that. We have too much food, that's unheard off for the fast majority of wild species.

The thing is, the modern way of (human) life is all based on a system that is largely kept together by itself (us and our jobs). If a enormous change were to happen like disappearance of law the structure of the system would fall apart. Slowly but surely all the necessary thing we take for granted would fall apart. Hospitals, police stations, fire department, those are instances that require some kind of regulation. And while I have no doubt there are noble people that would stay regardless in their jobs regardless, not everyone would, realistically.

If you look at gangs, hateful groups (of which there are many) and otherwise organized crime it isn't difficult to imagine what the average human is capable of given the right circumstances. Those people weren't born evil they grew into it. No regulations would also allow exactly those groups to do what they do uninhibited.
 

9407

Well-known member
People wouldn't behave themselves. I'd probably be locked up in my house with some kind of weapon. The area I live in has gang members and other shady people but that doesn't matter very much because even people you think are nice can turn out to be monsters when given the opportunity.
 

coyote

Well-known member
...A pretty interesting topic to consider.

most interesting to me is the correlation i see demonstrated in this thread between a) diagnosed or self-admitted "social phobics" or sufferers of social anxiety and b) the assumption that human beings are inherently evil

makes perfect sense really
 

Aletheia

Well-known member
virtue is its own reward

For me it's not about image.

If I do what I feel to be right, even if no one knows nor cares, I can rest in the confidence that I didn't betray my integrity. I can sleep at night.

(Of course I don't always get it right. Lingering unease is one clear indicator that I didn't.)
 

psych

Well-known member
I have one rule. I have to like myself in the morning. I mean, be able to stand who I am on the inside. That rules out a lot of really bad behavior.
I do not believe we are born like that. I believe we learn it. Or choose how to act it, but not follow it. Societal rules.
Kids at work talk about anarchy like it's a good thing. I'll often counter with Lord of the Flies as an example... If you are small enough to anybody's b**ch, that's what you'd be.

most interesting to me is the correlation i see demonstrated in this thread between a) diagnosed or self-admitted "social phobics" or sufferers of social anxiety and b) the assumption that human beings are inherently evil

makes perfect sense really

excellent point :)
 

Aletheia

Well-known member
Yes, well, without rules and laws they'd be capable of so much more. I think I would be scared to death of life without them.

Really?

Hunter gatherer bands function without any codified rules or laws (although admittedly they have their own behaviour modifying cultural mores).

The fact that societies always gravitate towards cohesion indicates that altruism is built into our genes. We'd have died out in the palaeolithic if it wasn't.
 

MsBuzzkillington

Well-known member
Yes, yes, Alethia! Thank you!

Editing to add some things...

The animal kingdom knows quite a bit of savage cruelty that often leads to death. Perhaps not on a mass scale, but it happens. It's by no means a paradise. Compared to the average animal's struggle our lives are a pretty much paradise. The fact that that obesity is a general problem is testimony of that. We have too much food, that's unheard off for the fast majority of wild species.

The thing is, the modern way of (human) life is all based on a system that is largely kept together by itself (us and our jobs). If a enormous change were to happen like disappearance of law the structure of the system would fall apart. Slowly but surely all the necessary thing we take for granted would fall apart. Hospitals, police stations, fire department, those are instances that require some kind of regulation. And while I have no doubt there are noble people that would stay regardless in their jobs regardless, not everyone would, realistically.

If you look at gangs, hateful groups (of which there are many) and otherwise organized crime it isn't difficult to imagine what the average human is capable of given the right circumstances. Those people weren't born evil they grew into it. No regulations would also allow exactly those groups to do what they do uninhibited.

Well, animals USED to have plenty of food. But because of our influences, we have killed off some natural predators of certain animals. So they produce waaaaay more than can be fed. Natural selection of things wouldn't really let this happen. Given ample space, animals can feed themselves and be healthy and get enough food. If there isn't enough food then some of the animals die off. That isn't cruel or a terrible life, that is how it SHOULD be.

Animals struggle because of things we have done to them. But by no means is our life much better than theirs because we have laws and regulation.

And where are animals CRUEL to one another? Cruel for no reason.

Crime came after we started to settle down. There is strong anthropological arguments saying that we were much, much friendlier before we started farming. Once we started farming, things started getting much worse, crime appeared and it got crazy.

I don't think we are savage beasts. I just... can't imagine that. Do people really think that if we had no laws, people would start murdering other people? I don't think that would happen. But maybe I am giving people too much credit. The most that would happen is we would openly steal. People already break the law, lie, steal, and cheat... even with consequences looming. People would still at the same way, just do it more often.


Yes to this too!

Morality seems to me to come from evolution. Survival of the species. We wouldn't be here if we made life impossible for one another. Those who don't conform to a productive role in human society are eliminated from it in one way or the other.
 
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Aletheia

Well-known member
Perhaps it's a meaningless question because consequences and accountability are an inherent part of how we relate to each other, rather than merely social constructs.

They reflect what it means to be human.
 

NP88

Well-known member
Morality seems to me to come from evolution. Survival of the species. We wouldn't be here if we made life impossible for one another. Those who don't conform to a productive role in human society are eliminated from it in one way or the other.
 
Im also no saint, I was raised in pentacostal churches and attended until I was old enough to refuse without fear of getting a beat down from my mom.. I truly believe God lives in us all and governs our way of thinking, now im sure there's many people that doesn't believe in God and ive honestly questioned it more than I should lately but the devil will gnaw at us and try to get us to believe there isn't anything wrong with a thing we do, even if we know better. I have been such a scumbag during the vast majority of my marriage and am reaping exactly what I sowed now, I actually talked myself into thinking that I could kiss and rub a girl, a stripper or a complete ho and tip her or give her money and it wasn't cheating, as long as I didn't have full blown intercourse. Then I stupidly seen it as a service being provided without personal feelings involved. Yeah I was dumb and knew it wasn't right but it helped me sleep at night. Then I met the girl of my dreams and fell in love like never before, and once again got what I deserved, she left me and went back to hubby and I turned into a drunk for two years and lost everything id ever worked for and here I am today in the worst shape ever, I cant talk to anyone now without feeling like trash for what I did, and my new job is great but the people simply avoid me because I guess I give off a horrible anti social vibe, but don't mean to. But to answer ur question, I would love more than anything to have a mere 8 hours to live consequent free, I would make sure to get a lot done and could prolly snap out of this funk and move on... but id settle for knowing what to say to get a good girlfriend to love me and trust me again, id treat her like a princess and would never even consider looking at another woman. Cheating has ruined my reputation and has took away my happiness.
 

Nathália

Well-known member
Hunter gatherer bands function without any codified rules or laws (although admittedly they have their own behaviour modifying cultural mores).

.

I don't think everybody would go crazy, it is not human nature to be untamed. Although, whats wrong with being wild? It's how men survive. Wild does not mean a human does not have morals in all contexts, it can just meant fighting for survival. You can cite this from looking at many isolated groups in the past. Humans are political creatures; look at primate even they have them. Even in one society not all people are going to agree with everything and some are going to bend the rules of that society "The deviants". I believe that we are naturally different and are able to come to our own conclusions. Humans are like any other animal we come in packs, we are social beings, we have language to communicate on many levels, it what makes who we are.

I do think because of the way the mainstream society is set up there would me major rule bending and a fight for survival, but it's not in the nature to be a savage beast. Just because a cave man kills food that does not make him a beast, he needs to live. If this happened in a country or place that were used to getting their needs met and all of a sudden things collapsed, yes then I think people would be rowdy because we're so used to other people doing things for us, were so comfortable living this way than with nature and many people would not know what to do. You go to a store to buy things already made, you go to a doctor and they can give you medication when you have have to go though surgeries so you can feel numb and not be awake and so on, things are done for us. I would feel anxiety if the current world collapsed, but I don't think it's in a nature.

So many isolated people have values that most people would see as good. It's all relative because some things are offensive to people, that are not to others, that's politics. The ancient world has so many wonderful cultures to learn from, people may not agree with them, but some humans try to advance and find the reasons behind things. I think ancient astrology and how mathematical people were is amazing. Humans believe in productivity and there are some what our society would see as good outcomes coming from it. Yea, there are some extreme taboo's like murders, but I don't think compassion is taught, I think humans have emotional intelligence...but what do I know.........
 
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Nathália

Well-known member
Yes, well, without rules and laws they'd be capable of so much more. I think I would be scared to death of life without them.

I still think he has a point even though I agree with Aletheia.

I don't think it's in our nature, but what if it happened in this day and time?
With societies that are driven off of materialism and are very complex and systematic?
Wouldn't there be an uproar before we gained order?
 
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KiaKaha

Banned
Well whether or not the question is meaningless by questioning if consequence and accountability is a social construct, it should be taken with a pinch of salt - if only for the mere fact that it incurs discussion.

You don't even need to remove rules and laws to see this. Look at what the nazis did in WWII, or the even more recent events in places like the Balkans, or the mass rapes that take place in some African countries today. The thing is, there's nothing intrinsically evil about Germans, or Serbs or Africans. They're just like anyone else, which means that under the right circumstances that nice guy who lives next door to you could be pushing Jews into a gas chamber or raping the wives and daughters of his enemy into submission.

The veneer of society is perilously thin, and what lurks underneath can be far more unpleasant than we'd like to think.

This is kind of what I was driving at with the OP. I think it's interesting how some people can be evil, and some people wont - if they knew, like they did in Nazi Germany - they could get away with it. I mean - what is the cause of that? I don't think people are naturally altruistic, I actually think people are more...shall we say.... selfish.... as an appropriate euphemism, at least when it comes right right down to it - I think a lot of this has to do with conditioning and learned behaviors but I also think that the majority of it comes down instinctual survival - we simply cant get by without other people. Isn't that why communities form in the first place?

But anyway - good posts everyone, I am enjoying reading your thoughts.
 

1BlackSheep

Well-known member
They're just like anyone else, which means that under the right circumstances that nice guy who lives next door to you could be pushing Jews into a gas chamber or raping the wives and daughters of his enemy into submission.

The veneer of society is perilously thin, and what lurks underneath can be far more unpleasant than we'd like to think.
This reminds me of a case we studied in Psychology class. It's called the Stanford Prision Experiment. They studied the effects of having students play the roles of prison guard and prisoner. It had some very unexpected consequences which caused the study to end early!
Stanford prison experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

MikeyC

Well-known member
Really?

Hunter gatherer bands function without any codified rules or laws (although admittedly they have their own behaviour modifying cultural mores).

The fact that societies always gravitate towards cohesion indicates that altruism is built into our genes. We'd have died out in the palaeolithic if it wasn't.
You make an excellent point, Aletheia. However, this is 2012, and if there were suddenly no order, there would be total chaos. There are enough bombs to destroy the planet, so imagine if that wasn't regulated. I know that's a far-fetched scenario, but just imagine. Weapons of that magnitude were not around in prehistoric times.

I do agree that cohesion is in-built. We would probably form alliances and such, but I would still be constantly scared.
 
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