A question for y’all Atheists / Agnostics

[phoenix1]

From the dawn of humankind, religion has played a significant role as an anxiety killer. Death, famine, pain, suffering was all part of a ‘bigger picture’ and people were able to get through much of it with the idea that there’s a bigger reason for it all and that after death, there’s wont be pain and suffering. People didn’t need to worry so much about their lives and their problems, because their lives where guided by a higher force and for the better – if not in this lifetime then certainly the forever after part.

Remember when we were all growing up and we did crazy things, got hurt, got sick. We never really had any anxiety, because we knew our parents would ultimately take care of us and protect us and make sure everything was alright. Religion to me seems like the adult version of parents, where we go about our days and not worry so much because God will take care of us in the end, so we need not worry so much.

Alas, I’m a ‘heretic’ non-believer in the ways of religion and God. I consider myself a good person and always tying to do the best I can, but I’m fairly sure I will never be able to use a ‘higher power’ like many others to help combat my anxieties and pain.

So my question to others who aren’t religious, do you have a guiding force that makes everything less painful and less anxious? Something to tell you that it’s alright when things go chaotically bad? Many times I look to nature as a greater force that bends me to its will. But unlike God, nature certainly doesn’t have my best interests at hand, and many times I feel myself feeling bitter towards the harsh realities of nature rather than submitting to its will (like you can do with God).

This isn’t meant for a religious debate or to criticize anyone’s personal beliefs. But I was wondering if anyone has any advice or personal thoughts on the subject? What do you use to help you get through the times when nature turns against you? How do you submit to ‘uncertainty’ or the will of nature without a personal belief in a benevolent higher power?

 

[Shonen_Yo]

I value life over death. Maybe believing in a higher can relieve anxiety, but anxiety is there for a reason, you can't dismiss it anymore than you can dismiss reality and consequently dismiss life.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

I have to say Pheonix, that I really like and appreciate your line of thinking. It really appeals to me.

Have you ever come across the philosopher Hegel's concept of the Dialectic?

You ask how do we submit to 'uncertainty' without believing in a higher power -which is to say, how can we possibly accept uncertainty without believing that the final outcome is certain...?
-this, from what I have read and understood, seems a really excellent question.

I'm still working on the answer to this. However, I can bring-up some basic "formulas" -that is, to say, some basic forms that 'God', or the 'bigger picture' take...
Hegel's concept of the dialectic goes like this:-
That Thesis and Antithesis come together, and through their reaction is created Synthesis. 'Synthesis' in fact becomes the new Thesis.

...Just what does he mean with 'Thesis', 'Antithesis' and 'Synthesis' ...well, 'Thesis' is God, 'Antithesis' is no God, and 'Synthesis' is the new God, or rather, the new form that God takes. Being that the ultimate answer to the question, Does God exist? -is that God exists and God does not exist -and this, of course, is the new God.

God is the relationship between two unlike things which defines those things individually -just like black exists because white exists.
And because everything evolves and moves to a 'higher complexity' (just as our sense of who we are develops and changes) when the world 'gets bigger' our sense of God -our boundaries for definition, and our perspective of what exists, which make it possible for us to know who we are within it- comes into a conflict. Because who we are -Thesis, God- is then threatened by the Antithesis, what God is not. This is also the same as God = knowing is threatened by no God = the unknown.

Your very good question is likewise about how just to transcend the conflict between what we know (ourselves to be) and what we do not know (ourselves to be).
Jung called these two opposites in nature 'Anima' and 'Animus', which is the same as Yin and Yang, -masculine and feminine. Just as the masculine in mythology for example, is associated with the concious ego -or Thesis and knowing in other words. And the feminine is associated with the unconcious and the unknown. ...Just like how Eve was the one who tempted Adam and "brough darkness". But this darkness is th beginning of conciousness and the doubt and anxiety that this brings is also said to be the beginning of conciousness, where free choice is possible.

...anyhow, the above is what I've understood from what I've read and thought about. There is much more to understand and much more that philosophers, psychologists (Carl Jung is excellent) and spiritual teachers have to say about such things... so I'll keep reading and thinking about it.
And your question about how do we face uncertainty -embrace the open of it- is still a really good one for me. ...I still haven't figured that one out.

 

[Chrysta]

I don't really know what I believe but I guess I am Agnostic. I believe in a higher power but not to the extent of saying that "higher power" decides everything in the world. I believe that you make your own decision and if you make it through something hard it is your own personal power and strength that helped or hindered you. Although, if I am really upset sometimes I pray to God even though I don't know if he exists. I do not rely on religion or God to help me through hard times.

I tell myself it will be alright because I have been through hard things before and I know that even if it hurts I can do it if I have to. I have a good relationship with my mom and I can go to her when I am upset and she understands and helps me through things. I only have one friend but she is very special to me and she understands me very well and I can talk to her to help me through. And I love my animals and going to them and laying with my cat and just listening to her purr helps me.

So if you don't have religion to turn to you need to find something else in your life that you can turn to. Music also helps me as well as reading. I spend all my free time listening to music and reading because sometimes I can find something that you can relate to and other times you find something that will take you away from your own problems.

 

[pinkputter]

Ok Question: those of you who posted, Do you believe there is absolute truth?

 

[Shonen_Yo]

Ok Question: those of you who posted, Do you believe there is absolute truth?

Ask Plato. :wink:

 

[Thelema]

Ok Question: those of you who posted, Do you believe there is absolute truth?

I didn't post but I believe in absolute truth. Meaning perfect and without flaws. I hit my thumb with a hammer today...absolute truth right there 8)

 

[Scrabbl]

Ok Question: those of you who posted, Do you believe there is absolute truth?

Ask Plato. :wink:

Yeah I believe there is absolute truth.. it's just very convenient for me to believe that certain things are 100% true and other things are 100% false.

That's why I find agnosticism very weird. I mean, logically, it's correct; like Plato said, we can't know if what we perceive is what things are really like (but that doesn't mean abs. truth doesn't exist).
But agnosticism is still weird 'cause to me, it's like avoiding the problem of whether god exists or not.. (i don't know if that makes sense lol)
Secondly, believing in agnosticism is a bit ironic; how can people "believe in" a theory that basically says that you can't know the truth.

anyway... back to phoenix's topic... although I've always been an atheist, in the past I often thought of the world as being a good place.. like life is fair and bad deeds are rewarded with punishments etc. So I guess I kind of believed in a higher being and turned to it for comfort.

But that changed after I realized I had SA, and now I'm a very pessimistic person. It sucks to be this way, but there is no turning back... To answer the initial question: How do you submit to ‘uncertainty’ or the will of nature without a personal belief in a benevolent higher power? I'd say I really don't know.. I guess you really ahve only 2 choices: to make yourself believe that everything's gonna be ok in the end or just accept things as they are and be all bitter and cynical...

 

[appletree]

that is a wonderful question.
I am a strong atheist with a buddhist leaning although i generally feel religion has a lot to answer for and in fact has caused a lot more anxiety in people than it has relieved, however this is not the place for me to discuss my religious viewpoint.


Regards your question "So my question to others who aren’t religious, do you have a guiding force that makes everything less painful and less anxious?"
my answer is yes, love.
be it in the form of the love from parents, friends even strangers.
i better go now i am tired.
hope you are well.

 

[pinkputter]

hey apple tree... I appreciate that you see love as an essential part of truth. But you did not answer my question.

I am not being stereotypical here, but this is a common thing for athiests to do... twist something so that it appears true.

If you want to prove me wrong answer the question: Do you believe in absolute truth?

Your answer will either be yes, or no.

After you answer my question with a legit. answer I will respond. K thanks, prove me wrong

 

[Thelema]

hey apple tree... I appreciate that you see love as an essential part of truth. But you did not answer my question.

I am not being stereotypical here, but this is a common thing for athiests to do... twist something so that it appears true.

If you want to prove me wrong answer the question: Do you believe in absolute truth?

Your answer will either be yes, or no.

After you answer my question with a legit. answer I will respond. K thanks, prove me wrong

Truth is nothing.

 

[Warlock]

I don't submit to uncertainty. I am subject to it. I don't have much of a guiding force.

 

[asdfjkl]

All I'll say is right now as of this time im aetheist... I just look at how big I believe it's BS!!! But then again if u truely did believe in your religion, whether it's actually "real" or "not real" it would make life a lot easier to deal with... but when I was religious life was actually harder... shit god didn't get me to the point were I'm at now... I DID!!! the more you believe in yourself... and stop depending on other people, at least that's what I believe and how I feel, guess that could be another reason I'm at were I'm at now... religious or not I would still be in the same boat... SO i just don't see the point in it really...

 

[easy]

What do you mean with absolute truth?

 

[Shonen_Yo]

hey apple tree... I appreciate that you see love as an essential part of truth. But you did not answer my question.

I am not being stereotypical here, but this is a common thing for athiests to do... twist something so that it appears true.

If you want to prove me wrong answer the question: Do you believe in absolute truth?

Your answer will either be yes, or no.

After you answer my question with a legit. answer I will respond. K thanks, prove me wrong

The search for absolute truth is nothing new to an atheist (look up Plato), he believed in one absolute truth. Socrates believed in none, just don't try to be such a high-and-mighty Christian. We don't have to answer "yes" or "no".

 

[haze]

people look to god (or whatever you want to call it/him/her) for hope and security but thats false hope and security.

I am a atheist i belive there is no such thing as a god in the way many religons percieve it as some all powerful sentinent being although it is possible just not probable.

being agnostic is just not really caring which i think is a fine point of view because religon isnt worth arguing about i only read and care about religon and its flaws so i can make fun of religous people for entertainment (yes im evil). The best way to be is not waste your time on religon unless its a source of entertainment.

i dont really know what you mean by absolute truth but there is allways black and white usually with grey in the middle. Also things are percieved diffrently and what we see isnt nesscirely there people hallunicate, we dont see some colours the way other creatures do etc.

 

[Quixote]

From the dawn of humankind, religion has played a significant role as an anxiety killer. Death, famine, pain, suffering was all part of a ‘bigger picture’ and people were able to get through much of it with the idea that there’s a bigger reason for it all and that after death, there’s wont be pain and suffering.

I agree with most of the above but I think it applies to the main monotheistic religions only, judaism, christianity, and islam, which are all pretty recent "inventions" compared to the whole time of human existence on this planet, and were confined to a small percentage of the earth's inhabitants until not long ago. The average human being until a couple of thousand years ago probably believed in a multitude of gods, mostly personifying the forces of nature, some realively good some rather bad but all of them "not-moral". They did not see the world as the product of an orderly plan of creation, built around mankind and for the purpose of its existence. They saw a mysterious and chaotic world, and accepted most of the mistery in it as inevitable. They would try to please the gods and avoid irritating them, whenever possible, but much with the same spirit as one would with a powerful master who might or might not take interest in our very existence, but should in any case be treated respectfully to avoid unpleasant consequences. I'm referring to greek/roman conceptions here, but I'm sure it wouldn't differ much in previous times or other geographical locations.

As for the afterlife, it was thought of in the same "non-moral" fashion s far the greek/romans go. There was no hell or heaven, all souls would live a perpetual existence somewhere under the earth, shadows of their former selves in a gloomy subterranean world. No special rewards or punishments.

All of this to say that perhaps it is wrong to assume that the "natural" state of humanity is one where strong beliefs are held about the nature of the universe and ourselves, helping to guide us through the troubles of life. This is a very recent idea, it belongs fundamentally to judaism and was later picked up by the the two other monotheistic faiths. So cheer up.. most of our ancestors were likely as troubled and worried as us atheists today, and they didn't have the internet to make it worse

So my question to others who aren’t religious, do you have a guiding force that makes everything less painful and less anxious? Something to tell you that it’s alright when things go chaotically bad?

Hope perhaps. Hope that things will get better, that problems will be solved, and that I will be eventually happy. It is as powerful and as unreasonable an idea as a any religion, and that is probably what really keeps men going since the beginning of times..

 

[pinkputter]

The search for absolute truth is nothing new to an atheist (look up Plato), he believed in one absolute truth. Socrates believed in none, just don't try to be such a high-and-mighty Christian. We don't have to answer "yes" or "no".[/quote]

Ha, sorry but I am well aware the search for absolute truth is nothing new to an athiest. Let's be a little more cocky about how you're kind is the only kind looking for truth. I think we can all agree just be existing and having experiences we're all looking for truth. Man I thought Christians were bad about doing that. Anyways....

If no one wants to tell me there's no such thing as an absolute truth (as anyone who is athiest clearly declares by simply being an ahiest)... than I will just have a convo with myself.

If there's no such thing as an absolute truth, how can you know THAT'S true?

If truth is nothing, like some one posted... how can people be talking about it. How can athiests always be searching for it. And if athiests are the great philosophers some claim to be, why would they be searching for something that does not exist?

Because there is absolute Truth.

Another post where they claimed to be agnostic they joked about being evil for making fun of religion. That's pretty humorous. So you DO believe that there's evil present?

In another post, some one claimed nothing is black and white, its all just gray mixed together. I can see where it would be hard to not see that. Actually I still see that every day. But what if the gray is temporary, and once youve found he truth you see the black and white IN things, even though as a whole they are still gray. What if the truth IS in the gray and our job is to look into that gray to find it. Ok im sure I've lost people by now.

Basically this quote sums it up:
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word,'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
-C.S.Lewis

I went through a time when I really convinced myself there wasn't a god, or if there was one I wasn't happy with him. I'm not here to make you believe in any one god. I just wanted to share my story and see where yall were at. The thing is, people don't doubt God, then START sinning. They usually sin first and doubt themselves, and then doubt God. I dunno, something to take in consideration. I will raise my hand high and say I'm a charter member of the sin club. And no its not some little scape goat way of saying im a failure at life, god come rescue me...thats not how it works.
Anyway, I have found something so powerful that I can't deny. A Truth that allows me to see life with clarity and to have purpose. If you have questions I will answer them. Thats really all I wanted to say.

 

[Mojopin]

agnosticism -- it's like avoiding the problem of whether god exists or not.

I think it could also be seen in the way that picking a side means avoiding the problem, because you simply accept one side and ignore the other even though neither have more proof. And agnostics accept this problem and stay neutral.

 

[Shonen_Yo]

The search for absolute truth is nothing new to an atheist (look up Plato), he believed in one absolute truth. Socrates believed in none, just don't try to be such a high-and-mighty Christian. We don't have to answer "yes" or "no".

Ha, sorry but I am well aware the search for absolute truth is nothing new to an athiest. Let's be a little more cocky about how you're kind is the only kind looking for truth. I think we can all agree just be existing and having experiences we're all looking for truth. Man I thought Christians were bad about doing that. Anyways....

If no one wants to tell me there's no such thing as an absolute truth (as anyone who is athiest clearly declares by simply being an ahiest)... than I will just have a convo with myself.

If there's no such thing as an absolute truth, how can you know THAT'S true?

If truth is nothing, like some one posted... how can people be talking about it. How can athiests always be searching for it. And if athiests are the great philosophers some claim to be, why would they be searching for something that does not exist?

Because there is absolute Truth.

Another post where they claimed to be agnostic they joked about being evil for making fun of religion. That's pretty humorous. So you DO believe that there's evil present?

In another post, some one claimed nothing is black and white, its all just gray mixed together. I can see where it would be hard to not see that. Actually I still see that every day. But what if the gray is temporary, and once youve found he truth you see the black and white IN things, even though as a whole they are still gray. What if the truth IS in the gray and our job is to look into that gray to find it. Ok im sure I've lost people by now.

Basically this quote sums it up:
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word,'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
-C.S.Lewis

I went through a time when I really convinced myself there wasn't a god, or if there was one I wasn't happy with him. I'm not here to make you believe in any one god. I just wanted to share my story and see where yall were at. The thing is, people don't doubt God, then START sinning. They usually sin first and doubt themselves, and then doubt God. I dunno, something to take in consideration. I will raise my hand high and say I'm a charter member of the sin club. And no its not some little scape goat way of saying im a failure at life, god come rescue me...thats not how it works.
Anyway, I have found something so powerful that I can't deny. A Truth that allows me to see life with clarity and to have purpose. If you have questions I will answer them. Thats really all I wanted to say.

You know, I don't want to start with you. I have nothing against Christians and think they're great. It's very unfortunate that you don't even know what an atheist is. An atheist is someone who has no faith in a literal definition of god, not a belief that god doesn't exist and not a belief that we shouldn't be searching for truth: that's ridiculous. Because assuming something to be true without searching is ridiculous, isn't it?

Maybe you should actually read about this argument that took place over 2000 years ago? Kind of like me, an atheist has by philosophers much greater than you or I. Plato thought that absolute truth existed in a world full of illusions and a world defined by human senses could never be seen as truth. Socrates believed in no truth because truth was a human concept.

I understand ignorance is bliss and you probably won't take my advice, but maybe you can read up on the Greeks, Descartes, Taoism and Confucius and what they thought the relationship between evil and good is. I have no desire to explain it to someone with closed eyes and ears because you seem pretty comfortable in your cave.