What about GOD, Can he help?

[Thelema]

MANY of those are indeed taken far out of context, and many are simply the same thing, more than a few are understandable with knowledge of the areas and understanding of the customs when it was written, and alot are (yet again) aimed at religion and not what the bible says at all. Not to mention there are other translations.

Virtually all of it is from a reader not only having next to no understanding of this, but trying to dissaprove it on a purpose.

Yet again, I say... pick up a copy yourself, look at it yourself, if it dont make sense, look at the references if it has and STUDY it, rather than reading on a biased website. I would dissect this, but it's really far too pointless, and would take a fair amount of time.

And for what it matters, I did view the link when you first posted it.

[EDIT] BTW scruff, I hit post limit. I'll post another when I can but I'll rather not put seperate discussions into one post.

I agree 100%.

This list of "contradictions" re-enforces my belief in the Bible. Clearly the people who wrote the list were trying hard to pick a fight. Many of the items listed aren't even contradictions, just Bible statements that somebody doesn't want to believe (like the miracles). Or when there are two versions of the same event recorded in different places in the Bible, it's listed as a "contradiction" if one version includes more detail than the other.

This list reminds me of the courtroom scenes I've seen on TV shows. When the lawyer knows that the facts are not on his side, he starts doing everything possible to confuse the court: file frivilous motions, argue about irrelevant issues, generally try to muddy the waters so the truth will be lost.

The facts are as plain as the nose on your face, you just gloss over them. You know what you want to believe and you're going to believe it come Hell or obvious contradictions and crazy notions that nobody should be able to believe. The Bible worked a long time ago when nobody knew any better.

 

[Doomed2Die]

Heres something thats hard to just downplay like it isn't there

PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true. Okay so the Bible is going to be 100% true then, agreed?

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;"

Now this isn't true, because the earth is round. So, the Bible is totally wrong, right? So now that something in the Bible is obviously wrong, the rest of the Bible is up to question. Whats wrong with my logic?

So, what exactly is the contradiction in this? If you mean how in another book the world is described as spherical, where as mountains are not. Well, what about the other mountians discribed in the bible? And the many times mountains are used in parables. When read in with the knowledge of the rest of the bible, it is clear without a doubt that this described 'round/sphere' shape is on a larger scale. A fair amount of text in the bible is poetic, but at the same time very informative and clear for those who are reading it with the intention of learning.

The bible for example mentions how "His word is alive", does this mean the paper pages the bible is imprinted on are living creatures? Of course not. The true meaning, the only possible meaning, would be in a poetic sense.

 

[Doomed2Die]

Can someone please tell me what the original bible consisted of? What is the ealriest edition? I don't want to read a version that has been meddled with by the vatican et al. :roll: Hopefully there is a version translated in to English :?:

Do any of the original scripts of the bible still exist?

The bible is made up of many 'books', each one orginally written seperate from the other books. I cannot remember when the first actual bible(aka library) was written, but it did not include all the books in the beginning, notably for example the most resently found, Isaiah.

The bible continued to be copied and very few things changed, one of which being the removal of God's name by the Jews, while older scripts are still around to be seen, the true pronunciation is lost since it was simply not spoken out of (what they believe) respect. Some translations are none too honest or accurate either in a few small things, thankfully for the most part, they are accurate. I personally use the New World Translation, but I would be happy with most other translations also.

I really need to refresh my memory in the detailed history of the bible, i'm not 100% sure of this right now, but I'll look it up tomorrow.

 

[Pyrophosphate]

Whether a god exists or not probably isn't for us to say, and it isn't what this topic is about. The question was if prayer could help. Whether God is really there and listening or not, prayer does give people hope, without which you wouldn't get over any of your problems. However, do not expect prayer to be some kind of miracle cure-all. God wouldn't just snap his fingers and free you of your problems; you have to work toward your goals.

 

[Thelema]

More

PAUL SAID, "God is not the author of confusion," (I Corinthians 14:33), yet never has a book produced more confusion than the bible! There are hundreds of denominations and sects, all using the "inspired Scriptures" to prove their conflicting doctrines.

Why do trained theologians differ? Why do educated translators disagree over Greek and Hebrew meanings? Why all the confusion? Shouldn't a document that was "divinely inspired" by an omniscient and omnipotent deity be as clear as possible?

"If the trumpet give an uncertain sound," Paul wrote in I Corinthians 14:8, "who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air." Exactly! Paul should have practiced what he preached. For almost two millennia, the bible has been producing a most "uncertain sound."

The problem is not with human limitations, as some claim. The problem is the bible itself. People who are free of theological bias notice that the bible contains hundreds of discrepancies. Should it surprise us when such a literary and moral mish-mash, taken seriously, causes so much discord? Here is a brief sampling of biblical contradictions.
Should we kill?

* Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
* Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."

vs.
* Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
* I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
* I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
* Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
* Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."

For a discussion of the defense that the Commandments prohibit only murder, see "Murder, He Wrote", chapter 27 (Losing Faith In Faith: From Preacher To Atheist).

Should we tell lies?

* Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
* Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."

vs.
* I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
* II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

Also, compare Joshua 2:4-6 with James 2:25.

Should we steal?

* Exodus 20:15 "Thou shalt not steal."
* Leviticus 19:13 "Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, neither rob him."

vs.
* Exodus 3:22 "And ye shall spoil the Egyptians."
* Exodus 12:35-36 "And they spoiled [plundered, NRSV] the Egyptians."
* Luke 19:29-34 "[Jesus] sent two of his disciples, Saying, Go ye into the village . . . ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. And if any man ask you, Why do ye loose him? thus shall ye say unto him, Because the Lord hath need of him. . . . And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt? And they said, The Lord hath need of him."

I was taught as a child that when you take something without asking for it, that is stealing.

Shall we keep the sabbath?

* Exodus 20:8 "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy."
* Exodus 31:15 "Whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death."
* Numbers 15:32,36 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. . . . And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."

vs.
* Isaiah 1:13 "The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity."
* John 5:16 "And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day."
* Colossians 2:16 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy-day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days."

Shall we make graven images?

* Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
* Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
* Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."

vs.
* Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
* I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"

Are we saved through works?

* Ephesians 2:8,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith . . . not of works."
* Romans 3:20,28 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight."
* Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."

vs.
* James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
* Matthew 19:16-21 "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he [Jesus] said unto him . . . keep the commandments. . . . The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven."

The common defense here is that "we are saved by faith and works." But Paul said "not of works."

Should good works be seen?

* Matthew 5:16 "Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works."
* I Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that . . . they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation."

vs.
* Matthew 6:1-4 "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them . . . that thine alms may be in secret."
* Matthew 23:3,5 "Do not ye after their [Pharisees'] works. . . . all their works they do for to be seen of men."

Should we own slaves?

* Leviticus 25:45-46 "Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, . . . and they shall be your possession . . . they shall be your bondmen forever."
* Genesis 9:25 "And he [Noah] said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."
* Exodus 21:2,7 "If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. . . . And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the manservants do."
* Joel 3:8 "And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the Lord hath spoken it."
* Luke 12:47,48 [Jesus speaking] "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes."
* Colossians 3:22 "Servants, obey in all things your masters."

vs.
* Isaiah 58:6 "Undo the heavy burdens . . . let the oppressed go free, . . . break every yoke."
* Matthew 23:10 "Neither be ye called Masters: for one is your Master, even Christ."

Pro-slavery bible verses were cited by many churches in the South during the Civil War, and were used by some theologians in the Dutch Reformed Church to justify apartheid in South Africa. There are more pro-slavery verses than cited here.

Does God change his mind?

* Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
* Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
* Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
* James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

vs.
* Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
* Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
* Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.

See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)

Are we punished for our parents' sins?

* Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
* Exodus 34:6-7 " . . . The Lord God, merciful and gracious, . . . that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."
* I Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, . . ."

vs.
* Ezekiel 18:20 "The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father."
* Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Is God good or evil?

* Psalm 145:9 "The Lord is good to all."
* Deuteronomy 32:4 "a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."

vs.
* Isaiah 45:7 "I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things." See "Out of Context" for more on Isaiah 45:7.
* Lamentations 3:38 "Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?"
* Jeremiah 18:11 "Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you."
* Ezekiel 20:25,26 "I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live. And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord."

Does God tempt people?

* James 1:13 "Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

vs.
* Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

Is God peaceable?

* Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
* Isaiah 2:4 ". . . and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

vs.
* Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war."
* Joel 3:9-10 "Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong."

Was Jesus peaceable?

* John 14:27 "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you."
* Acts 10:36 "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ."
* Luke 2:14 " . . . on earth peace, good will toward men."

vs.
* Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."
* Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, . . . he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Was Jesus trustworthy?

* John 8:14 "Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true."

vs.
* John 5:31 "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

"Record" and "witness" in the above verses are the same Greek word (martyria).

Shall we call people names?

* Matthew 5:22 "Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire." [Jesus speaking]

vs.
* Matthew 23:17 "Ye fools and blind." [Jesus speaking]
* Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Has anyone seen God?

* John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
* Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
* John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God [Jesus], he hath seen the Father."
* I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."

vs.
* Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
* Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
* Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
* Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

How many Gods are there?

* Deuteronomy 6:4 "The Lord our God is one Lord."

vs.
* Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image."
* Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil."
* I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

It does no good to claim that "Let us" is the magisterial "we." Such usage implies inclusivity of all authorities under a king's leadership. Invoking the Trinity solves nothing because such an idea is more contradictory than the problem it attempts to solve.

Are we all sinners?

* Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
* Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
* Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."

vs.
* Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
* Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
* Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."

How old was Ahaziah?

* II Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

vs.
* II Chronicles 22:2 "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign."

Should we swear an oath?

* Numbers 30:2 "If a man vow a vow unto the Lord, or swear an oath . . . he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth."
* Genesis 21:22-24,31 " . . . swear unto me here by God that thou wilt not deal falsely with me . . . And Abraham said, I will swear. . . . Wherefore he called that place Beersheba ["well of the oath"]; because there they sware both of them."
* Hebrews 6:13-17 "For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself . . . for men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath."

See also Genesis 22:15-19, Genesis 31:53, and Judges 11:30-39.

vs.
* Matthew 5:34-37 "But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven . . . nor by the earth . . . . Neither shalt thou swear by thy head . . . . But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."
* James 5:12 ". . . swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."

When was Jesus crucified?

* Mark 15:25 "And it was the third hour, and they crucified him."

vs.
* John 19:14-15 "And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out . . . crucify him."

It is an ad hoc defense to claim that there are two methods of reckoning time here. It has never been shown that this is the case.

Shall we obey the law?

* I Peter 2:13 "Submit yourself to every ordinance of man . . . to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors."
* Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's." See also Romans 13:1,7 and Titus 3:1.

vs.
* Acts 5:29 "We ought to obey God rather then men."

How many animals on the ark?

* Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark."
* Genesis 7:8-9 "Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah."
* Genesis 7:15 "And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."

vs.
* Genesis 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female."

Were women and men created equal?

* Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

vs.
* Genesis 2:18,23 "And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. . . . And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

Were trees created before humans?

* Genesis 1:12-31 "And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: . . . And the evening and the morning were the third day. . . . And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

vs.
* Genesis 2:5-9 "And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. .Ê.ÊAnd the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground . . . And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food."

Did Michal have children?

* II Samuel 6:23 "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."

vs.
* II Samuel 21:8 "But the king took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul."

How many stalls did Solomon have?

* I Kings 4:26 "And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

vs.
* II Chronicles 9:25 "And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen."

Did Paul's men hear a voice?

* Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."

vs.
* Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."

(For more detail on this contradiction, with a linguistic analysis of the Greek words, see "Did Paul's Men Hear A Voice?" by Dan Barker, published in the The Skeptical Review, 1994 #1)

Is God omnipotent?

* Jeremiah 32:27 "Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there anything too hard for me?
* Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible."

vs.
* Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

Does God live in light?

* I Timothy 6:15-16 " . . . the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach . . ."
* James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
* John 12:35 "Then Jesus saith unto them, . . . he that walketh in darkness knoweth not wither he goeth."
* Job 18:18 "He [the wicked] shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world."
* Daniel 2:22 "He [God] knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him." See also Psalm 143:3, II Corinthians 6:14, and Hebrews 12:18-22.

vs.
* I Kings 8:12 "Then spake Solomon, The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness." (Repeated in II Chronicles 6:1)
* II Samuel 22:12 "And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, and thick clouds of the skies."
* Psalm 18:11 "He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."
* Psalm 97:1-2 "The Lord reigneth; let the earth rejoice . . . clouds and darkness are round about him."

Does God accept human sacrifice?

* Deuteronomy 12:31 "Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods."

vs.
* Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
* Exodus 22:29 "For thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors; the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me."
* Judges 11:30-39 "And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hand, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon . . . and the Lord delivered them into his hands. . . . And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: . . . And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed."
* II Samuel 21:8-14 "But the king [David] took the two sons of Rizpah . . . and the five sons of Michal . . . and he delivered them into the hands of the Gibeonites, and they hanged them in the hill before the Lord: and they fell all seven together, and were put to death in the days of harvest . . . And after that God was intreated for the land."
* Hebrews 10:10-12 " . . . we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ . . . But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God."
* I Corinthians 5:7 " . . . For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us."

Who was Joseph's father?

* Matthew 1:16 "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus."

vs.
* Luke 3:23 "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."

This chapter was first printed as a "nontract," a freethinkers' version of a (non-proselytizing) tract. Since it was first published, I have received numerous replies from Christians who think that these contradictions are either trivial or easily explained. Yet not a single "explanation" has been convincing. Most of them do little homework, inventing off-the-cuff defenses of what the bible "could have meant," or devising creative explanations that actually make the problem worse. For example, one Christian, agreeing with Eusebius, explained that "Thou shalt not bear false witness" does not prohibit lies, and that God actually wants us to tell falsehoods if it will further the kingdom of heaven.

Many of the defensive attempts are arguments from silence. Some apologists assert that since the writer of John does not say that there were not more women who visited the tomb with Mary, then it is wrong to accuse him of contradicting the other evangelists who say it was a group of women. But this is a non-argument. With this kind of thinking, I could claim that the people who accompanied Mary to the tomb included Mother Teresa, Elvis Presley, and Paul Bunyan. Since the writer of John does not specifically exclude these people, then there is no way to prove that this is not true--if such fragile logic is valid.

All of the above contradictions have been carefully studied, and when necessary the original languages have been consulted. Although it is always scholarly to consider the original languages, why should that be necessary with the "word of God?" An omnipotent, omniscient deity should have made his all-important message unmistakably clear to everyone, everywhere, at all times. No one should have to learn an extinct language to get God's message, especially an ancient language about which there is much scholarly disagreement. If the English translation is flawed or imprecise, then God failed to get his point across to English speakers. A true fundamentalist should consider the English version of the bible to be just as inerrant as the original because if we admit that human error was possible in the translation, then it was equally possible in the original writing. (Some fundamentalists do assert that the King James Version is perfect. One preacher reportedly said, "If the King James Version was good enough for the Apostle Paul, then it's good enough for me.") If a contradiction exists in English, then the bible is contradictory.

The above list of thirty-three contradictions is a very small portion of the thousands of biblical discrepancies that have been catalogued by scholars. See "Leave No Stone Unturned" for seventeen additional contradictions specific to the resurrection of Jesus. One monthly publication, "Biblical Errancy," is devoted entirely to this topic (published by Dennis McKinsey, 3158 Sherwood Park Drive, Springfield OH, 45505.) Even if a defender of the bible were to eliminate all of the above (and no one has come close), we are still only scratching the surface. The bible is a flawed book.

http://www.ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra

 

[Thelema]

Heres something thats hard to just downplay like it isn't there

PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true. Okay so the Bible is going to be 100% true then, agreed?

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;"

Now this isn't true, because the earth is round. So, the Bible is totally wrong, right? So now that something in the Bible is obviously wrong, the rest of the Bible is up to question. Whats wrong with my logic?

So, what exactly is the contradiction in this? If you mean how in another book the world is described as spherical, where as mountains are not. Well, what about the other mountians discribed in the bible? And the many times mountains are used in parables. When read in with the knowledge of the rest of the bible, it is clear without a doubt that this described 'round/sphere' shape is on a larger scale. A fair amount of text in the bible is poetic, but at the same time very informative and clear for those who are reading it with the intention of learning.

The bible for example mentions how "His word is alive", does this mean the paper pages the bible is imprinted on are living creatures? Of course not. The true meaning, the only possible meaning, would be in a poetic sense.

The Bible doesn't say "And God revealed to him", It describes, "an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world". Would you talk about a mountain and imply a flat Earth if there wasn't one?

I'm sure that if we were having this conversation in the time of the Bible, you would point to that passage and say "Look, God says the world is flat, how obvious and straight forward this is!" and I'd probably agree with you, but now we know it's obviously a false claim made in the Bible. I really think its a stretch to claim God would describe a flat earth with a mountain you can see everything from if it never existed and just brings more doubt in the Bible and Him

 

[Thelema]

Heres something thats hard to just downplay like it isn't there

PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true. Okay so the Bible is going to be 100% true then, agreed?

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;"

Now this isn't true, because the earth is round. So, the Bible is totally wrong, right? So now that something in the Bible is obviously wrong, the rest of the Bible is up to question. Whats wrong with my logic?

So, what exactly is the contradiction in this? If you mean how in another book the world is described as spherical, where as mountains are not. Well, what about the other mountians discribed in the bible? And the many times mountains are used in parables. When read in with the knowledge of the rest of the bible, it is clear without a doubt that this described 'round/sphere' shape is on a larger scale. A fair amount of text in the bible is poetic, but at the same time very informative and clear for those who are reading it with the intention of learning.

The bible for example mentions how "His word is alive", does this mean the paper pages the bible is imprinted on are living creatures? Of course not. The true meaning, the only possible meaning, would be in a poetic sense.

The Bible doesn't say "And God revealed to him", It describes, "an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world". Would you talk about a mountain and imply a flat Earth if there wasn't one?

I'm sure that if we were having this conversation in the time of the Bible, you would point to that passage and say "Look, God says the world is flat, how obvious and straight forward this is!" and I'd probably agree with you, but now we know it's obviously a false claim made in the Bible. I really think its a stretch to claim God would describe a flat earth with a mountain you can see everything from if it never existed and just brings more doubt in the Bible and Him

And "All the kingdoms of the world" implies that God knows about all the great civilizations of the world...obviously he never showed up in Central America and said "Hey, I'm the one true God". Of course its not that he didn't care about saving the souls of Mayan people, it means he doesn't exist and this was all written by a guy thousands of years ago that didn't know about the American Continent or that the World isn't flat and is without a Super Mountain.

 

[Thelema]

omfg I am confused. Doom2die if there was ever one book created 2000 years ago.... I would love to read it with an english translation (Cos my Hebrew sucks LOL)... otherwise i fear the more recent bible translation would have been infected with materialism, consumerism, fascism and ego.

To the bible haters... I understand the skepticism... I am also a "skeptic"... but there is also a lot of substance and wisdom within the archaic language and riddles .

It wasn't written 2000 years ago and it isn't one book, but a bunch of books later put together. The books in the Bible were written, in some instances, HUNDREDS of years after this stuff was supposed to happen.

The Bible isn't all bad, but it aint anything divinely inspired

 

[Doomed2Die]

And "All the kingdoms of the world" implies that God knows about all the great civilizations of the world...obviously he never showed up in Central America and said "Hey, I'm the one true God". Of course its not that he didn't care about saving the souls of Mayan people, it means he doesn't exist and this was all written by a guy thousands of years ago that didn't know about the American Continent or that the World isn't flat and is without a Super Mountain.

You continue to prove that you really have not the slightest idea of what is said in the bible, and yet somehow finding justification to attempt disapproving it all. It was within Satan's power to show Jesus be it through words or even visions the kingdoms of the world that he himself owned. You yourself mention how it's impossible for such a high mountain, and your right, but there are other varibles also as with any written story.

Well yes I agree with you! But it comes from a time where people thought beyond the basic bullshit and sought a more devine meaning than fashion and Britney Spears. No doubt they were not exactly right... but they were closer to the target than any of the material bullshit today's society could come up with?

Heh well, this exact sequence of events and how people act today is even prophesied in the bible. As for the recommendation, try the new world translation english bible, it's far more eaiser to read and is one of the better translations around.

 

[Rodox]

I dont believe in any religion,but also we can not tell what really happened before the big bang,if there is some kind of God I dont think he is what most people think,I think we wouldnt be able to comprehend him, some vids I like
Sam Harris: Does anyone else see a problem with that?
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=RqjB31xiE9k&feature=related
Sam Harris: Bible/Koran are the work of God?
http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=G7vYDs6BP2M&feature=related
I have wanted to read Sam Harris book The End of Faith for some time now,but for some reason havent picked up.

 

[MotherWolff]

Honestly the first two words that come to my mind when I hear the word god(especially when the "g" is capitolized) is "fear" and "control". I really just can't understand what makes God any different from what Westerners(well Christians in general) call pagan gods like the ones in mythology.

I mean really how come every Christian that has ever been my misfortune to know, goes on and on about how good "there" God is and other gods, to them, are absurd imaginations that never existed. What makes God anymore real than Ptah, an Egyptian god of creation and eternity? How can God, a possibly make-believe deity, help anyone?

I can't wait to witness the fall of Christianity, the day when it'll be coined as a pathological myth. :/

 

[Thelema]

And "All the kingdoms of the world" implies that God knows about all the great civilizations of the world...obviously he never showed up in Central America and said "Hey, I'm the one true God". Of course its not that he didn't care about saving the souls of Mayan people, it means he doesn't exist and this was all written by a guy thousands of years ago that didn't know about the American Continent or that the World isn't flat and is without a Super Mountain.

You continue to prove that you really have not the slightest idea of what is said in the bible, and yet somehow finding justification to attempt disapproving it all. It was within Satan's power to show Jesus be it through words or even visions the kingdoms of the world that he himself owned. You yourself mention how it's impossible for such a high mountain, and your right, but there are other varibles also as with any written story.

I don't think God would write the Bible so only a few could understand it. Does that make any sense? No. So I think I'll take what it says at face value

Ummm why doesn't the Bible mention the American Continent or the Mayans?...or any other civilization that would have been unknown to the Biblical writers? You don't think that its a little suspect that the Bible ignores...like 95% of the world, if not more? I mean, if God wanted to make a point, he'd list every great nation and send Jesus there on a cloud or something...why not? Why did God that claims to be the one true God, ignore most of the World and just show up in one place? Everyone knows what the missionaries did, destroyed every culture they could and shoved God down peoples' throats...couldn't God have done better himself, far sooner?

 

[Thelema]

Honestly the first two words that come to my mind when I hear the word god(especially when the "g" is capitolized) is "fear" and "control". I really just can't understand what makes God any different from what Westerners(well Christians in general) call pagan gods like the ones in mythology.

I mean really how come every Christian that has ever been my misfortune to know, goes on and on about how good "there" God is and other gods, to them, are absurd imaginations that never existed. What makes God anymore real than Ptah, an Egyptian god of creation and eternity? How can God, a possibly make-believe deity, help anyone?

I can't wait to witness the fall of Christianity, the day when it'll be coined as a pathological myth. :/

Don't worry, Christianity has been on the decline for years. Scaring people to make them believe doesn't work and promising them bliss everlasting doesn't work...people have science now and don't worry that evil spirits will attack them in the night

 

[Doomed2Die]

I can't wait also. It will be fun.

 

[scruffpot]

Honestly the first two words that come to my mind when I hear the word god(especially when the "g" is capitolized) is "fear" and "control". I really just can't understand what makes God any different from what Westerners(well Christians in general) call pagan gods like the ones in mythology.

I mean really how come every Christian that has ever been my misfortune to know, goes on and on about how good "there" God is and other gods, to them, are absurd imaginations that never existed. What makes God anymore real than Ptah, an Egyptian god of creation and eternity? How can God, a possibly make-believe deity, help anyone?

I can't wait to witness the fall of Christianity, the day when it'll be coined as a pathological myth. :/

I agree with you on this one in a way, but the only way someone can think that a God can help them, is that it creates a comfort zone for them, a placebo effect of such, and we have scientific proof that the palcebo effect actuially works.- thats the only way in which i can see it working.
There is no one god, there isn't a god.
Each concept of a god is a spin off from each other, it all comes down to the same basis that there is something out there, that created us, make a path in life etc etc.
No one god is better then another, its the actions of the people who believe that make the religion.

 

[theblank]

Has anybody had any success with God and prayer and church by itself?

As far as being completely healed of social phobia my answer is no, but as far as staying alive and having things to live for the answer is yes. If it wasn't for my faith in God I would have been dead a long time ago.

 

[Thelema]

Honestly the first two words that come to my mind when I hear the word god(especially when the "g" is capitolized) is "fear" and "control". I really just can't understand what makes God any different from what Westerners(well Christians in general) call pagan gods like the ones in mythology.

I mean really how come every Christian that has ever been my misfortune to know, goes on and on about how good "there" God is and other gods, to them, are absurd imaginations that never existed. What makes God anymore real than Ptah, an Egyptian god of creation and eternity? How can God, a possibly make-believe deity, help anyone?

I can't wait to witness the fall of Christianity, the day when it'll be coined as a pathological myth. :/

I agree with you on this one in a way, but the only way someone can think that a God can help them, is that it creates a comfort zone for them, a placebo effect of such, and we have scientific proof that the palcebo effect actuially works.- thats the only way in which i can see it working.
There is no one god, there isn't a god.
Each concept of a god is a spin off from each other, it all comes down to the same basis that there is something out there, that created us, make a path in life etc etc.
No one god is better then another, its the actions of the people who believe that make the religion.

If you want to know some real weird stuff...look how the story of Osiris is closely like Jesus. Osiris was known as the "slain and the risen." sound familiar? Even Hercules and Zeus. Hercules, the son of a God of Thunder, born of a mortal woman. Even the face of Jesus was modeled after Zeus' face, since nobody was sure what Jesus looked like, they took the face of Zeus and used that as a model.

Even tho Christians worship a single God, the Angels became a sorta-kinda-pretty much deities in themselves in which certain Angels you pray to for certain things. Even Saints are prayed to for certain purposes that are unique to that Saint

 

[Doomed2Die]

Guess there is no point in me posting then, since you people refuse to listen to anything.

There are many many seperate Christian religions, and to be honest most are far from following the bible. Saint's for example are not mentioned in the bible, and besides two, nor are angelic names in fact on more than one occasion an angel refused to say their name in fear of the hearers to use it in worship, and also in humbleness to his god.

Me personally as a aspiring Jehovah's Witness focus on what the bible really says. With even a rough understanding of the bible, it's clear who the true Christians are by observing their actions, Jesus himself said so.

If you want I could hold hands with you, and dance around yelling 'Religion sucks.' because I fully agree with this, in fact I have done that for a long time. But there is more to it, and it's not enough just to dislike it.

 

[scruffpot]

Guess there is no point in me posting then, since you people refuse to listen to anything.

Tou = grouping = a problem with religion it groups people into sects.

There are many many seperate Christian religions, and to be honest most are far from following the bible. Saint's for example are not mentioned in the bible, and besides two, nor are angelic names in fact on more than one occasion an angel refused to say their name in fear of the hearers to use it in worship, and also in humbleness to his god.

Me personally as a aspiring Jehovah's Witness focus on what the bible
really says. With even a rough understanding of the bible, it's clear who the true Christians are by observing their actions, Jesus himself said so.

They could say that about you the other christians because they worship a slightly different version of the bible. What makes yours the correct one?

If you want I could hold hands with you, and dance around yelling 'Religion sucks.' because I fully agree with this, in fact I have done that for a long time. But there is more to it, and it's not enough just to dislike it.

To be honest doomed2die we have never said 'Religion sucks'. we are just debating the concept of having a belief, and that we do not believe in the way that you do or other religios people, that does not make us bad people or enough to hold hands and dance (paganistic rituals?). Unfortunatly you are only seeing it from your veiw i understand that you were not relgiious and now you are, but as having a free choice to believe in what we want, we also have the choice to critise your beliefs in the way that you do in you believeing in a certain set of rules you critise us for not having the same as you.

 

[MotherWolff]

Honestly the first two words that come to my mind when I hear the word god(especially when the "g" is capitolized) is "fear" and "control". I really just can't understand what makes God any different from what Westerners(well Christians in general) call pagan gods like the ones in mythology.

I mean really how come every Christian that has ever been my misfortune to know, goes on and on about how good "there" God is and other gods, to them, are absurd imaginations that never existed. What makes God anymore real than Ptah, an Egyptian god of creation and eternity? How can God, a possibly make-believe deity, help anyone?

I can't wait to witness the fall of Christianity, the day when it'll be coined as a pathological myth. :/

I agree with you on this one in a way, but the only way someone can think that a God can help them, is that it creates a comfort zone for them, a placebo effect of such, and we have scientific proof that the palcebo effect actuially works.- thats the only way in which i can see it working.
There is no one god, there isn't a god.
Each concept of a god is a spin off from each other, it all comes down to the same basis that there is something out there, that created us, make a path in life etc etc.
No one god is better then another, its the actions of the people who believe that make the religion.

Yeah I wanted to mention that as well but I suddenly forgot the term was known as "placebo effect".

Besides the whole fear and control thing I mentioned earlier, I think there are people who believe in God, praying to Him and worshipping Him, because they are downright scared of the unknown.But now we have *drum roll please^_^* science to offer us explanation(on some things however) like what Thelema said about modern science being a much more rational and reliable source than religion(especially Christianity).

I guess science is still not very comforting for some people(religous people), so they have to "make-believe" the most bizarre theologies(some of which are actually quite positive like the book of Psalms and Proverbs) just to feel protected. Yes, isn't that a placebo effect?

I will admit though, the very thought that there is no god is quite frightening to me, especially when I grew up believing that there is one. I'm terribly scared of the unknown(like what will happen to us when we die). Seeing things that way I can understand why a religous person is religous to begin with. It is for this reason alone that I might someday turn to religion once again(hopefully not Christianity:/).

I wish I knew of a religion, or some kind of teaching, that didn't contain so many strict doctrines to follow as if to threaten and bribe me. I wonder what buhdduism and hinduism is like? :?