Is AVP/SA/Depression bad wiring or bad conditioning? Or some combination?

[gustavofring]

This is probably the ultimate question and mystery behind many mental disorders. Is it a (genetic or dropped on the head as a child induced) brain disease that's causing dysfunctional behavior, or is it just a bundle of bad thought and behavior patterns that is enforcing these bad brain chemicals? Or a wicked combination that feeds off each other?

I think if you look at the brain as a muscle, it's probably reasonable to assume that enough exposure and trying will eventually with ups and downs lead to the establishment of better neuro-pathways, and in turn encourage improved behavior-patterns so that a person will feel better with time and effort. Just like an astronaut who's been in space for a long time needs to build up the muscle that he lost, or a man who has been paralyzed needs to learn how to walk again. This is a bit of a simplistic way to look at it, and the brain is hardly a muscle and more an organ, but I can see the logic behind it.

That's why many CBT and similar therapies attempt to replace the negative mindset with positives. However, some things may be permanent, like some people may also have Attention Deficit Disorder that's stopping them from establishing positive change. Each time they start something they just get distracted with other things because of the lack of dopamine in their brain. This is why I'm not sure if CBT will help with me and why I stopped visiting the therapist to talk about my past and such. I think it's best if I continue the route of exposure, trial and error, and keeping a positive mindset in relation to everyday realities (maintaining friendships and relationships, facing challenges, trying to improve concentration and focus on work, keeping motivation, etc.) and not running away from them.

 

[CaptainArgh]

I reckon its probably a pre-disposition to the disorder, and in my case reinforced by stuff growing up - a lot of it is learned, and can therefore be unlearned

 

[laure15]

^Interesting stuff. I've read most of the transcript. It's saying that SA/Depression can be both biologically inherited and a result of the environment. But it can be overcome, especially when a child has a warm, caring, supportive adult in life. One paragraph stuck out at me:

I have really come to terms with the baggage I have, I mean for example all those sensitive variants that predispose me to various mental conditions but also give me thoughtfulness, and a eye for details and that kind of stuff. Knowing about that makes it easier for me to live with my depressive character, it makes it easier for me to sort of distance myself from a depression when it’s coming on and saying to myself well, this is a biological thing, it’s not because you’re the worse person in the world, it’s not because everybody else is horrible to you, all these thoughts you get. I can really use this information about my biology to distance myself and live much better with who I am.

Biological makeup can be overcome, but to a certain extent, I guess.

 

[ImNotMyIllness]

It IS neuro-chemically based. For some people, medication has literally changed their lives. Everyone has different levels. For those suffering from mild depression, exercise, change in diet, better sleep, therapy could be the cure. For someone with severe depression, medication may have to be added to the list.

Laure15 made a great point. You can overcome your biology but you're also limited as how far you can go. Less severe the illness the easier.

 

[NeedNewAlphabet]

I'm pretty sure it's nearly always a combination of hard-wiring and experience.

By "hard wiring", I don't actually mean how your neurons are connected. That changes all the time. What I do mean is things like particular genes and aspects of brain development that aren't subject for a do-over. Temperament, to put it in one word.

I think some problems are mostly or entirely biogenic, like schizophrenia, bipolar and some unknown proportion of unipolar depression cases. AvP isn't one of them. But even with them there is a learning aspect that affects ones ability to deal with them or to stave off episodes.

I myself have had major major depression episodes at least since I was fifteen. Looking back, I can see that I was developing AvP all along too. I kept a journal back then, and I can see now that one of the things I wrote after a big social letdown was basically a plan to work on developing AvP--I am a Rock I am an Island stuff wrapped up in whatever Nietzche I could scrape up.

When I first sought help for depression my attitude was, give me the pill and let me go. At the time, that wasn't entirely a bad attitude. Freud hadn't been dead long enough and Carl Rogers was still alive. Albert Ellis, whom I regard as something like a demigod, was vigorously ignored because he was disliked because he could be very abrasive and dissed Freud, saying "Freud was out of his **insert taboo word here** mind". On the average, talk therapists were wretchedly bad and only rarely did more good than harm. They usually knew next to nothing about AvP too.

The first therapist I had who did me any good I met in 1998. Interestingly, I had been given an MMPI, and he looked at some of the non-standard scales and said "You have the profile of somebody with PTSD." I replied, "I never had a major trauma, but I've had enough little ones to add up to that." I was practically announcing that I had AvPD. I don't know if he saw that, but he did do me a lot of good.

I think it did me more good than the happy pill prescribed at the same clinic, which was Remeron. It left me almost stuporous.

Before him, I usually demanded a drug and didn't want anything to do with talk therapy. I was sure my depression was entirely chemical. I see now that my main reason for seeing it that way was that I was so ashamed of my entire being -- for no good reason I might add -- that I just didn't want to talk about myself.

You might suspect I am trying to give you advice. I am. However, you are free to ignore it. I'm not a professional, just a know-it-all.