frustr4t3d
Well-known member
xx
AvPD versus SAD/SP ...here's what I've found!
- Thread starter frustr4t3d
- Start date
ShiJai
Well-known member
frustr4t3d said:
I'm not sure if it's just me, but I've been unable to access this site by either using the link or typing in the add.
I would very much like to read more regarding this site. Perhaps someone else could check things out to see if it isn't just me? If it isn't, frustr4t3d, would you mind re-checking the add?
Regardless, thankyou for the info.
ShiJai.
frustr4t3d
Well-known member
xx
featherflight
Member
i'm confused. Why the xx ?, If anyone else is wondering how to access the link just remove the q from councelling. They misspelt it.
ether
New member
I was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder...yet my therapist questioned that...she said I was at least a high functioning Borderline. When I read up on Avoidants...I was like "BINGO!" it fit me to a tee. I fall under the category of femme fatale. I all goes much deeper than social anxiety. Av's won't interact on a social level unless absolutely sure of acceptance. This goes for relationships. We choose people who are not really good because they won't reject us. Yet, we grow tired of them, and dump them...without warning (at least I have). Can't face the "talk".
We put on a "face" because we are so scared people will see the "real" us, and not like what they see. We feel fundamentally flawed compared to others. Low self-esteem (even if unwarranted), depressions plays a part. I was labeled "sensitive as a child. My mother was overprotective as well, she put all her fears into me. Watch Pink Floyd's "The Wall"
If I was not "perfect" in a situation I would drop out, instead of just enjoying what I was doing. Constantly monitoring people's reactions to me as well as my body language, terrified of confrontation. Run away run away. Lost many friends due to "fear". People don't understand how exhausting and crippling this disorder is. They say it is easy to treat,but I wonder...looking for help myself.
We put on a "face" because we are so scared people will see the "real" us, and not like what they see. We feel fundamentally flawed compared to others. Low self-esteem (even if unwarranted), depressions plays a part. I was labeled "sensitive as a child. My mother was overprotective as well, she put all her fears into me. Watch Pink Floyd's "The Wall"
If I was not "perfect" in a situation I would drop out, instead of just enjoying what I was doing. Constantly monitoring people's reactions to me as well as my body language, terrified of confrontation. Run away run away. Lost many friends due to "fear". People don't understand how exhausting and crippling this disorder is. They say it is easy to treat,but I wonder...looking for help myself.
dontgetit
Member
I posted a question earlier in an earlier post - but reading the last email realized this is my ex-boyfriend. I say 'ex' because he simply decided I deserved better and he couldn't take the 'questions' . Is is common to get so angry when someone asks for clarificaiton or asks 'why'?
He kept this from me for over 7 months though I did a mental note at times that a incident was a bit weird or over the top reaction. Since he came 'clean' the relationship destructed very quickly.
You talk about fear and I have tried to help him through his fear and point out his unrealistic thoughts at times. Well, he only sees this as an attack and not help.
I know it must be emotionally exhausting to deal with this 24/7, but it should be noted that the people who love all of you are frustruated too.
We go the extra mile to ensure we say the right thing. To helplessly watch a loved one self-destruct is the worst pain any person will go through in life.
He kept this from me for over 7 months though I did a mental note at times that a incident was a bit weird or over the top reaction. Since he came 'clean' the relationship destructed very quickly.
You talk about fear and I have tried to help him through his fear and point out his unrealistic thoughts at times. Well, he only sees this as an attack and not help.
I know it must be emotionally exhausting to deal with this 24/7, but it should be noted that the people who love all of you are frustruated too.
We go the extra mile to ensure we say the right thing. To helplessly watch a loved one self-destruct is the worst pain any person will go through in life.
social_phobia2008
Well-known member
ether said:
Well said. To speak from my own experience, I dumped my last 2 gir;friends cause I was never attracted to them, but on the contrary, I felt rejection towards them and that granted me anxiety release I needed to be with them.
And although i'm sorry for them, i see my self doing the same thing in the future cause that's the only way (that i know) to be with a girl - to feel absolutely nothing for her.
As for friends, I just ''dumped'' one this weeks, completly rejected him. Same situation here.
still-shy
Member
Wow. Ether that post made me say BINGO too. More like *ding ding*
I think I can officially say this is my problem too.
The part you said about seeking out people who aren't really good but then growing tired of them, oh man. And then you constantly crave the "one's you really want" right?
Or having friends that aren't as good, but trying to make them good. I think of those movies where the guy dates the geeky girl but transforms her into the hottie. But on the inside she's still the geeky girl full of insecurity.
Wow that is how I am, and it does kind of suck! It's not fair--to the other person. I always wanted the insecure friend or girlfriend but who could pass as a regular on the outside.
I think I can officially say this is my problem too.
The part you said about seeking out people who aren't really good but then growing tired of them, oh man. And then you constantly crave the "one's you really want" right?
Or having friends that aren't as good, but trying to make them good. I think of those movies where the guy dates the geeky girl but transforms her into the hottie. But on the inside she's still the geeky girl full of insecurity.
Wow that is how I am, and it does kind of suck! It's not fair--to the other person. I always wanted the insecure friend or girlfriend but who could pass as a regular on the outside.
social_phobia2008
Well-known member
still-shy said:
Yes, this is the sad part. We're hurting other people and we do this deliberatly. I'm going to stop this with my next gf, i'm going to pick one i actually like in the beggining, and zolpidem thartrate will do the rest for me on the first dates. 8)
as for friends, got any ideas ? :roll:
VioletTears
Well-known member
I'm curious if anyone still has that article? I have been interested in trying to better discriminate the differences as well. I don't know if others are interested in studies but this was also interesting to me...
http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/ppsw/2002/c.j.m.van.velzen/c4.pdf
I know that depression and introversion are HUGE for me and I'm guessing others are in the same boat..
Also, the quote from the other article regarding fear of intimacy in AvP is fitting for me as well... My husband and I have been a couple for 11 years and married for almost 5 and it's STILL hard for me to talk to him about my emotions... I was wishing I could kill myself daily for about 5 months this past winter before even admitting to him that I was depressed (and it probably would have taken longer except that I had started meds and he started questioning me). Or if I get mad at him for not helping with something or whatever I'll generally just get all pissed but not say anything to him. Also, meeting new people is often intimidating to me, but it's when they get closer and I feel them trying to get inside my head that I really loose it.
http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/ppsw/2002/c.j.m.van.velzen/c4.pdf
I know that depression and introversion are HUGE for me and I'm guessing others are in the same boat..
Also, the quote from the other article regarding fear of intimacy in AvP is fitting for me as well... My husband and I have been a couple for 11 years and married for almost 5 and it's STILL hard for me to talk to him about my emotions... I was wishing I could kill myself daily for about 5 months this past winter before even admitting to him that I was depressed (and it probably would have taken longer except that I had started meds and he started questioning me). Or if I get mad at him for not helping with something or whatever I'll generally just get all pissed but not say anything to him. Also, meeting new people is often intimidating to me, but it's when they get closer and I feel them trying to get inside my head that I really loose it.
Zor
New member
The link in the OP works if you take out the aberrant "q" in the url. here's a link that works
http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/avoidant.html
The description in that link seems to fit me.
Browsing through the site, I found that the dependant personality disorder seems to fit me pretty well too.
http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/dependent.html
Oddly, the site seems to have two different pages for Low Self Esteem and Low Self Confidence.
http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/avoidant.html
The description in that link seems to fit me.
Browsing through the site, I found that the dependant personality disorder seems to fit me pretty well too.
http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/dependent.html
Oddly, the site seems to have two different pages for Low Self Esteem and Low Self Confidence.
noblame4
Well-known member
Alright, I'm confused.
I went to a therepist for a few months about...2 years ago?? and she diagnosed me with social anxiety. I got on paxil for a while and that seemed to help. Then I turned 21 and got kicked off my mom's insurance and had to quit both. Now I'm back to how I always was. Fucked. I've been reading up on AvPD, and I'm wondering if I've been misdiagnosed? I dont have a lot of faith in self-diagnosis for myself. But maybe that's why the therepy didnt take?
So, where's the line between social phobia and avoidant?
I went to a therepist for a few months about...2 years ago?? and she diagnosed me with social anxiety. I got on paxil for a while and that seemed to help. Then I turned 21 and got kicked off my mom's insurance and had to quit both. Now I'm back to how I always was. Fucked. I've been reading up on AvPD, and I'm wondering if I've been misdiagnosed? I dont have a lot of faith in self-diagnosis for myself. But maybe that's why the therepy didnt take?
So, where's the line between social phobia and avoidant?
There is no line between SP and AvPD. Like all mental disorders, they are just names used to describe a common set of symptoms that could be related. The symptoms are the problem, the names are just for classification.
chaoticmind
Member
I recently wrote a post in my personal journal about this too that I thought I would add to this thread...
Recently I have been trying to identify the differences between Social Anxiety Disorder/Social Phobia (what I have been diagnosed with) and Avoidant Personality Disorder. Apparently 20-40% of the people who have a Social Phobia will also have AvPD. In Martin Kantor's book called Distancing, the author describes the differences between Social Phobia and Avoidant Personality Disorder as a fear of performing certain tasks versus the fears which generally arise in the context of interpersonal relationships. A person with Social Phobia may fear such things as public speaking or eating out in public, but otherwise has fairly normal healthy close relationships. With Social Phobia they are withdrawing from interpersonal situations and not interpersonal relationships. With AvPD there is not only that fear of criticism, embarrassment, and rejection but also a fear of "flooding, depletion and acceptance". For example, an actor who may feel alive on the stage but is otherwise shy and withdrawn, hiding from friends and family when they call and not returning the messages that people have left for him. Even though ultimately what this person desires most are these close relationships.
This was definitely interesting for me to read. I've always wondered, especially, how so many people with Social Anxiety Disorder are still able to hold jobs without going.. completely.. insane! It boggled my mind, leaving me wondering if I'm "doing my social anxiety wrong" now too, lol. (You're supposed to be anxious around people, but not that anxious! :wink
Well now that I have read up a bit on AvPD things are starting to fall into place. One of my biggest difficulties in life is certainly on an interpersonal level, just dealing with people. I literally recoil from closeness even though it is the one thing I want most. Which leaves me wondering if my friends would even comprehend how much I truly value having them in my life when I must be sending out such confusing signals! I grasp at friendships, for a best friend. But as soon as they respond I quite literally panic. "Individuals with AvPD usually refer to themselves with contempt. View themselves as defective, unable to fit in with others, being unlikable, and being inadequate." This is only too true, anyone following my rocky history of friendships can see how I can feel this way! I am confused about what's going on inside me and I don't mean to but somehow keep pushing people away. It's hard for me to accept that by my very nature I can destroy perfectly good friendships, but at the same time it is a relief to know what's causing this and to perhaps figure out what I can do to avoid this pattern throughout the rest of my life with the friends who continue to stick by my side. In a way their patience, love, and understanding makes me even more afraid, because these are the friendships I definitely couldn't bear to lose!! My readings also bring up concerns as to how I will ever be able to go back to a normal job if this is as incapacitating as they say it is (and I'm beginning to realize it is)... At the moment I am exploring into alternative ways to bring in some cash of my own. To work around my limitations instead of incessantly running into brick walls and getting frustrated with myself. Just because I choose to avoid being around people in a work environment doesn't mean I am then a complete social recluse. I can still be social in other ways.. right? I just feel like I'm the only one who's thought of this. Even my therapist wants me to go back to my retail job which quite literally drove me insane. Am I the only one who thinks that going back would be a very bad idea?!?
AvPD symptoms listed on Wikipedia:
People with avoidant personality disorder are preoccupied with their own shortcomings and form relationships with others only if they believe they will not be rejected. Loss and rejection are so painful that these individuals will choose to be lonely rather than risk trying to connect with others.
* Hypersensitivity to criticism or rejection
* Self-imposed social isolation
* Extreme shyness in social situations, though feels a strong desire for close relationships
* Avoids interpersonal relationships
* Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus.
* Feelings of inadequacy
* Severe low self-esteem
* Self loathing
* Mistrust of others
* Extreme shyness/timidity
* Emotional distancing related to intimacy
* Highly self-conscious
* Self-critical about their problems relating to others
* Loss of self-identity
* Problems in occupational functioning
* Lonely self-perception
* Feeling inferior to others
* Chronic substance abuse/dependence
* Investment in fixed fantasies (a belief or system of beliefs held by a single individual to be genuine, but that cannot be verified in reality..)
A chart of Avoidant Personality Disorder vs. Generalized Social Anxiety Disorder:
http://www.anxietyhelp.org/information/avpd_vs_sad.html
Recently I have been trying to identify the differences between Social Anxiety Disorder/Social Phobia (what I have been diagnosed with) and Avoidant Personality Disorder. Apparently 20-40% of the people who have a Social Phobia will also have AvPD. In Martin Kantor's book called Distancing, the author describes the differences between Social Phobia and Avoidant Personality Disorder as a fear of performing certain tasks versus the fears which generally arise in the context of interpersonal relationships. A person with Social Phobia may fear such things as public speaking or eating out in public, but otherwise has fairly normal healthy close relationships. With Social Phobia they are withdrawing from interpersonal situations and not interpersonal relationships. With AvPD there is not only that fear of criticism, embarrassment, and rejection but also a fear of "flooding, depletion and acceptance". For example, an actor who may feel alive on the stage but is otherwise shy and withdrawn, hiding from friends and family when they call and not returning the messages that people have left for him. Even though ultimately what this person desires most are these close relationships.
This was definitely interesting for me to read. I've always wondered, especially, how so many people with Social Anxiety Disorder are still able to hold jobs without going.. completely.. insane! It boggled my mind, leaving me wondering if I'm "doing my social anxiety wrong" now too, lol. (You're supposed to be anxious around people, but not that anxious! :wink
Well now that I have read up a bit on AvPD things are starting to fall into place. One of my biggest difficulties in life is certainly on an interpersonal level, just dealing with people. I literally recoil from closeness even though it is the one thing I want most. Which leaves me wondering if my friends would even comprehend how much I truly value having them in my life when I must be sending out such confusing signals! I grasp at friendships, for a best friend. But as soon as they respond I quite literally panic. "Individuals with AvPD usually refer to themselves with contempt. View themselves as defective, unable to fit in with others, being unlikable, and being inadequate." This is only too true, anyone following my rocky history of friendships can see how I can feel this way! I am confused about what's going on inside me and I don't mean to but somehow keep pushing people away. It's hard for me to accept that by my very nature I can destroy perfectly good friendships, but at the same time it is a relief to know what's causing this and to perhaps figure out what I can do to avoid this pattern throughout the rest of my life with the friends who continue to stick by my side. In a way their patience, love, and understanding makes me even more afraid, because these are the friendships I definitely couldn't bear to lose!! My readings also bring up concerns as to how I will ever be able to go back to a normal job if this is as incapacitating as they say it is (and I'm beginning to realize it is)... At the moment I am exploring into alternative ways to bring in some cash of my own. To work around my limitations instead of incessantly running into brick walls and getting frustrated with myself. Just because I choose to avoid being around people in a work environment doesn't mean I am then a complete social recluse. I can still be social in other ways.. right? I just feel like I'm the only one who's thought of this. Even my therapist wants me to go back to my retail job which quite literally drove me insane. Am I the only one who thinks that going back would be a very bad idea?!?AvPD symptoms listed on Wikipedia:
People with avoidant personality disorder are preoccupied with their own shortcomings and form relationships with others only if they believe they will not be rejected. Loss and rejection are so painful that these individuals will choose to be lonely rather than risk trying to connect with others.
* Hypersensitivity to criticism or rejection
* Self-imposed social isolation
* Extreme shyness in social situations, though feels a strong desire for close relationships
* Avoids interpersonal relationships
* Avoids physical contact because it has been associated with an unpleasant or painful stimulus.
* Feelings of inadequacy
* Severe low self-esteem
* Self loathing
* Mistrust of others
* Extreme shyness/timidity
* Emotional distancing related to intimacy
* Highly self-conscious
* Self-critical about their problems relating to others
* Loss of self-identity
* Problems in occupational functioning
* Lonely self-perception
* Feeling inferior to others
* Chronic substance abuse/dependence
* Investment in fixed fantasies (a belief or system of beliefs held by a single individual to be genuine, but that cannot be verified in reality..
)A chart of Avoidant Personality Disorder vs. Generalized Social Anxiety Disorder:
http://www.anxietyhelp.org/information/avpd_vs_sad.html
Rigil
Active member
I'm going to state some opinions about what I've learned on the situation, please don't take this as a replacement or counterpoint to any of the other information in this thread.
They are both possibly going to wind up being something other than what they are now, so be careful in comparing the two.
This is one of the criticisms of the DSM's since in it's current state it allows two different diagnoses.
There is a very real possibility that it's the same illness, since each diagnosis comes from a different theory of psychology.
A red-bird will have a very different description of an apple tree than a turtle would, in other words.
The big difference that sticks out to me:
Avoidant personality disorder is a behavioral diagnosis, while social phobia is an anxiety diagnoses.
One is based on what we do in certain situations, the other is based on what we feel in certain situations.
Does that make them the same thing? I don't know.
I've been diagnosed with both, but very little attention has been given to call it AvPD over SP.
The reason for this, I'm told, is that their goals for treatment and my goals for treatment are largely the same regardless.
I'm a little less depressed when I'm avoidant, but I do still want to be able to talk to people .etc.
Another thing to remember about any personality disorder is that the mechanisms involved aren't always negative.
No one is going to be diagnosed with a disorder for pretending to be away when a salesman is at the door, but that is an avoidant trait.
Social Phobia isn't limited to just avoidant traits either.
Many of us have codependency issues, borderline thinking, obsessive compulsive behaviors, .etc
While there are more avoidant traits in SP than others, in my opinion that may not be accurate.
An avoidant trait is more likely to cause one to miss work, opposed to an obsessive or codependent trait.
The possible loss of a job is what gets many to the doctor to get diagnosed.
The thing to remember is to tell your doc or therapist everything, since most of them are probably looking for things that can help your treatment.
If your doc knows you have terrible fear talking to people, but doesn't know there are days you literally cannot use the phone, his treatment will be different.
The presence of avoidant traits presents the doctor with the possibility that you may not make your next appointment.
Taking that approach, he might reschedule your appointment to a less crowded time or offer assistance in getting there.
His treatment may change, not because of the avoidant trait, but because that trait is a sign his treatment may be ineffective and he can't do anything if you aren't there.
They are both possibly going to wind up being something other than what they are now, so be careful in comparing the two.
This is one of the criticisms of the DSM's since in it's current state it allows two different diagnoses.
There is a very real possibility that it's the same illness, since each diagnosis comes from a different theory of psychology.
A red-bird will have a very different description of an apple tree than a turtle would, in other words.
The big difference that sticks out to me:
Avoidant personality disorder is a behavioral diagnosis, while social phobia is an anxiety diagnoses.
One is based on what we do in certain situations, the other is based on what we feel in certain situations.
Does that make them the same thing? I don't know.
I've been diagnosed with both, but very little attention has been given to call it AvPD over SP.
The reason for this, I'm told, is that their goals for treatment and my goals for treatment are largely the same regardless.
I'm a little less depressed when I'm avoidant, but I do still want to be able to talk to people .etc.
Another thing to remember about any personality disorder is that the mechanisms involved aren't always negative.
No one is going to be diagnosed with a disorder for pretending to be away when a salesman is at the door, but that is an avoidant trait.
Social Phobia isn't limited to just avoidant traits either.
Many of us have codependency issues, borderline thinking, obsessive compulsive behaviors, .etc
While there are more avoidant traits in SP than others, in my opinion that may not be accurate.
An avoidant trait is more likely to cause one to miss work, opposed to an obsessive or codependent trait.
The possible loss of a job is what gets many to the doctor to get diagnosed.
The thing to remember is to tell your doc or therapist everything, since most of them are probably looking for things that can help your treatment.
If your doc knows you have terrible fear talking to people, but doesn't know there are days you literally cannot use the phone, his treatment will be different.
The presence of avoidant traits presents the doctor with the possibility that you may not make your next appointment.
Taking that approach, he might reschedule your appointment to a less crowded time or offer assistance in getting there.
His treatment may change, not because of the avoidant trait, but because that trait is a sign his treatment may be ineffective and he can't do anything if you aren't there.