my inexperience with women...

[no1]

I think my inexperience with women has made me harsh and irritating...

Also when I am around girls I am afraid that they will see my hunger.

Or whatever. I try to be nice and easy going.

When I was younger I used to be with women very gentle but I was also messed up.

I dunno.

people tell me different things on how to act with women. I dont know how to respond. I don't know what to do with women.

I try to gain experience but I'm finding out that I really don't know how to deal with women. I don't want to go by someone else's reasoning either. Most of what I've heard from pick up artists and others are to NOT to listen to women.

 

[Jay Cataldo]

Well, you should always be listening to women, just dont listen to what women say you should do to pick them up. The most important thing you can possibly do to increase your chances of attracting women is to be fun. Learn how to enjoy yourself and not take things so seriously. If you don't know how to have fun, either by yourself or with others, then why would girls want to be around you? You have to ask yourself "what's in it for them if they spend time with me?"

And the first step to having fun is getting out of your head. Easier said than done, but you can learn how to do this with a little practice.

 

[no1]

Well, you should always be listening to women, just dont listen to what women say you should do to pick them up. The most important thing you can possibly do to increase your chances of attracting women is to be fun. Learn how to enjoy yourself and not take things so seriously. If you don't know how to have fun, either by yourself or with others, then why would girls want to be around you? You have to ask yourself "what's in it for them if they spend time with me?"

And the first step to having fun is getting out of your head. Easier said than done, but you can learn how to do this with a little practice.

Exactly.. all the pick up artist books tell me not to listen to what women say I should do to pick them up. ie not listen to women.

but why do they think that way about women? They don't trust women? are they misogynist? are they thinking that women don't know what they want, or CAN'T know what they want? or are dumb?

 

[Anubis]

I think pick-up artists have got a bad rap in this forum. Maybe it's hard to present them in the best light on a forum predicated on SAD or maybe society has this negative attitude about picking up women, but they actually have really great advice.

I personally think books are a crappy medium to convey their knowledge though. This is why I humbly suggest that you try watching their videos instead. "Body Language by David DeAngelo" is probably my favorite. It's a lecture series that takes you step-by-step on how to conduct your body language when talking with a woman (or anyone for that matter). Here is the link to the download, in case you're interested. David DeAngelo - Body Language Download it for evaluation purposes and see if you like it before buying. If you decide to download, let me know how you like it. It's kinda big, but really, what do you have to lose?

Exactly.. all the pick up artist books tell me not to listen to what women say I should do to pick them up. ie not listen to women.

but why do they think that way about women? They don't trust women? are they misogynist? are they thinking that women don't know what they want, or CAN'T know what they want? or are dumb?

I think you may be misinterpreting their advice. They don't tell you to not listen to women. On the contrary, they advise paying special attention to the body language of a woman to make sure that her space isn't being violated. I think where you may have got the "not listening to the woman" part was from when they advise against showing excessive indicators of interest when first meeting a woman (in effect giving off an aura of slight disinterest). This is NOT ignoring the woman. It's designed to play up on a specific aspect of attraction (all explained with real-life examples in the above video), and it's just one aspect. It gets a lot more intimate as the attraction stage progresses, I promise.

 

[licorice]

Perhaps they are insinuating that most women are confused? You can follow their advice since they are the so-called experts but I personally wouldnt..I would personally just try to work on myself in various ways,then just be the best I can be,have good intentions,etc...They(whoever they are)say the all men are pigs,if I were to believe that then I would be pretty narrow-minded wouldnt I? With all this info on how to meet people/interact/etc our minds become overloaded and then in the midst of the actual interaction we may freeze up cause we are monitoring everything we say and do so carefully and then bam,we screw it up...I know this sounds like a broken record but try becoming someone you actually like/love then just be yourself,and stop putting women on pedestals,they are just people..If youre in a social setting you dont have to try to talk to the women with the intention of picking them up,try just talking to them as a person/friend,then who knows what could occur...

 

[SickJoke]

Exactly.. all the pick up artist books tell me not to listen to what women say I should do to pick them up. ie not listen to women.

but why do they think that way about women? They don't trust women? are they misogynist? are they thinking that women don't know what they want, or CAN'T know what they want? or are dumb?

Here's the problem with asking women advice on how to interact with women. When you ask her, for example, how she would want to be treated in a relationship, she'll think of the man of her dreams and how she would want HIM to treat her. She'll imagine Hugh Jackman or Matt Damon or George Clooney, or WHOEVER her ideal guy is. And THEN she'll say, "Oh, I just want him to give me lots of attention, buy me flowers, show that he loves me, etc."

See the problem here? She's imagining someone with such high social status that HE would need to prove to HER that SHE is worthy. You, on the other hand, haven't even earned her attraction yet, so that kind of advice is USELESS.

 

[SickJoke]

My god you are all over-analysing things to death. All you need is some money and some confidence.

Confidence helps, money doesn't. Any woman who gets into a relationship with a guy for his money is going to enjoy the benefits of his money, and cheat on him, guaranteed.

 

[Remus]

lol @ pinker

 

[Ubersonic]

Why are women treated like the holy grail on this forum.

Because they are. DUH!

If a man came on here and said he turned down a women because she was shy and didn't know how to loosen up he'd be berated.

That's a pretty big IF that will never happen.

 

[no1]

why is it that mystical traditions equate women with heaven, the holy grail etc. lol...

 

[Jay Cataldo]

Confidence helps, money doesn't. Any woman who gets into a relationship with a guy for his money is going to enjoy the benefits of his money, and cheat on him, guaranteed.

Don't buy into their crap. Money definitely helps. The pua's all try to convince you it doesn't but that's total bull. Why do you think there's a new broke-ass "guru" popping up each week who believes he should charge $3,000 for a weekend seminar? This is also why they're all pushing "entourage game" and "lifestyle management seminars" these days. They ALL know money matters but lie about it for marketing purposes.

I WILL say that just having money doesn't equate to anything. If you flaunt your cash, then you'll mostly attract golddiggers. But a decent level of financial status helps your game just like a cool car, nice clothes, cool social circle, etc. Sure, women will sleep with you if you're broke, but most won't seriously date you if you can't rub two nickles together or at least convince her you have potential to make some bread.

Another reason why they perpetuate the "bang a new girl every night" lifestyle is because they're all broke and living home with mommy and daddy (not to mention very few of them know how to keep a woman happy over the long term anyway). Most quality women aren't interested in using a man for his money, but it's important to them that their man can, at the very least, support himself.

I mean as opposed to unemployed.

LOL Exactly.

why is it that mystical traditions equate women with heaven, the holy grail etc. lol...

Because in it's most natural state, feminine energy is a powerful force of nature. Sadly, most women today act completely neurotic because of the societal roles forced on them (not to mention they way they have been treated by men since the beginning of time) but most ancient cultures have revered the feminine and consider them to be divine and I completely agree with this assertion.

Most religions were created around sexual practices (although they try to cover that up nowadays) because it was believed that the only way for men to reach heaven or attain a godlike state was by having sex with a fully empowered woman. It was said that the mixing of the masculine and feminine energies during intercourse was the path to enlightenment and considered women to be the one true gateway to the heavens.

Nowadays, it's a lot easier to get to heaven. You can put a few bucks in the basket and say some hail mary's, or you can strap a bomb to your chest and blow up a crowded bus stop.

I'm sure that when you finally fall in love with a girl who feels the same way, you will be able to answer your own question.

 

[licorice]

Money may get you in the door but character/personality sustains things...You can buy someones attention not their love...Its sad to see so many fellows feeling the need to drive fancy cars/flashing bling to attract the ladies,but we live in a material world and I am NOT a material girl...Having money is great,but if you need to use it to make up for you lack of other things than prepare to be used....Having a job whether its a high powered job or not is always a plus and a must for most ladies...I admire anyone who gets up everyday and goes to an honest job,I have just as much respect for the cleaning guy as I do for the head of a company...Most attractive thing I've ever seen is when someone who is extremely successful/attractive has a down to earth attitude and treats everyone with kindness and respect..

 

[Jay Cataldo]

Money may get you in the door but character/personality sustains things...You can buy someones attention not their love...Its sad to see so many fellows feeling the need to drive fancy cars/flashing bling to attract the ladies,but we live in a material world and I am NOT a material girl...Having money is great,but if you need to use it to make up for you lack of other things than prepare to be used....Having a job whether its a high powered job or not is always a plus and a must for most ladies...I admire anyone who gets up everyday and goes to an honest job,I have just as much respect for the cleaning guy as I do for the head of a company...Most attractive thing I've ever seen is when someone who is extremely successful/attractive has a down to earth attitude and treats everyone with kindness and respect..

She hit it on the head. Money helps in some ways but can't make up for a lack of personality and heart. But as cool as she is, she really needs to preface all her posts with, "I'm different than most girls." Licorice, maybe you can add that line to your sig.

And you are far more eloquent than I am. Can you please start ghostwriting all my posts for me? It's the least you can do after your little tryst in our pool shed. Love ya.

 

[Anubis]

Don't buy into their crap. Money definitely helps. The pua's all try to convince you it doesn't but that's total bull.

Which pick-up artists do you listen to? Because I've never heard any of the prominent PUAs (Neil, Mystery, David, etc.) claim that money doesn't matter. In fact, if you examine their systems, they're all based on status ... and being fiscally independent is a crucial way to tell your potential mate that you have status. What SickJoke meant was that confidence is disproportionately under-estimated in the game of attraction. Great confidence can make any fiscally independent individual a huge catch. As someone said earlier, money can get you in the door, but it won't ever seal the deal in any healthy relationship if you don't have significant pre-existing attraction. Why do you think so many millionaires hire dating professionals to find them their mate?

 

[no1]

without money, what are we? we only need money as long as it's a necessity.

 

[Jay Cataldo]

Which pick-up artists do you listen to? Because I've never heard any of the prominent PUAs (Neil, Mystery, David, etc.) claim that money doesn't matter. In fact, if you examine their systems, they're all based on status ... and being fiscally independent is a crucial way to tell your potential mate that you have status. What SickJoke meant was that confidence is disproportionately under-estimated in the game of attraction. Great confidence can make any fiscally independent individual a huge catch.

Like I said, most of them are no longer preaching this in their products and seminars, but it's still being used in their marketing. Look closely at all the ad copy they use.

"Love Systems levels the playing field; money and looks don't matter since everything is based on female psychology. "

"Lack of success with women has NOTHING to do with not having money or good looks."

"Get women to approach you no matter your looks, age or income."

The marketing implies that your financial status means nothing i.e. "you could be living in a box on the sidewalk and still get laid if you use our system."

And read the reports of the guys who take a wknd trip to Miami, Ft Lauderdale, LA, or NYC and are shocked to discover they can't pull at all in certain venues.

Again, I'm not saying you need tons of money to attract a quality girl, but I'm against any teachings that give you an excuse to not develop all aspects of your life. And only recently have these guys started addressing the lifestyle stuff. Mystery was broke most of his life and never talked about money. After Neil released The Game, they released the huge rip-off $4,000 Annihilation Method which, if I remember correctly, pulled in 1.7 mil (don't quote me on the numbers) in less than a day because Harlan Kilstein and Frank Kern were helping them with the marketing (those guys are marketing geniuses). And Eben Pagan (David D) made millions with DYD and then made the move to teaching marketing seminars because there's huge money to be made there.

And fyi: I've been involved in the community for 12 years, have friends that instruct for various companies and a well-known "guru" sells my book on his site so I'm not just some clueless dude running his mouth. I'm just fed up with all the deception. It started out with good intentions but now it's completely out of control.

As someone said earlier, money can get you in the door, but it won't ever seal the deal in any healthy relationship if you don't have significant pre-existing attraction. Why do you think so many millionaires hire dating professionals to find them their mate?

Anyways, I agree that confidence is underestimated in the game of attraction. All I'm saying is that you can get your foot in the door by creating attraction but very rarely can you have a healthy relationship with a quality woman if you're flat broke. And I get irritated when people perpetuate this myth in order to convince guys low on cash to drop 3 grand on a seminar when they should be putting that money towards their education or a new business venture.

So let's all agree that money helps, but it isn't everything, and nowhere near the most important thing, and we can go on to discuss something more productive.

Rant concluded.

 

[Anubis]

I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree then.

I've seen Mystery and Neil talk (David as well). And I find their knowledge to be exquisitely logical. They're not scam artists unless you find human psychology illogical.

I'm willing to agree that the marketing is a bit outlandish (although some of it is possible in some venues). And I'm also willing to agree that it's a huge rip-off to pay $4000 for the system, but that says nothing about the information included in the system. All it says is that Neil is smart enough to recognize that there will always be a large amount of retards in ANY market who are willing to overpay for products and knowledge. Kudos to him for recognizing this and maximizing his income potential.

The smart ones wait for the system to be commercially available. The lecture series that I've come to love (Body Language by David DeAngelo et. al) is no more than $200 and it includes everything Neil talks about. And you don't even have to pay for it to try it. You just have to know how to torrent it. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, just delete it.

That's why I beg everyone to at least try the products before you take anyone's word (even mine). People may use their knowledge for nefarious reasons, like getting laid every day, but the information itself is NEUTRAL and applicable to normal Joes who prefer monogamous relationships.

 

[Jay Cataldo]

I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree then.

I've seen Mystery and Neil talk (David as well). And I find their knowledge to be exquisitely logical. They're not scam artists unless you find human psychology illogical.

When did I ever say they are scam artists or that their material is illogical? I commented on the tendency for seduction gurus to convince their customers that a man's financial status is irrelevant for seducing the kind of woman that he wants to be with. What does this have to do with human psychology and whether or not it's exquisitely logical?

The smart ones wait for the system to be commercially available. The lecture series that I've come to love (Body Language by David DeAngelo et. al) is no more than $200 and it includes everything Neil talks about. And you don't even have to pay for it to try it. You just have to know how to torrent it. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, just delete it.

Do you think it's ethical to encourage people to download products for free on torrent sites? You do realize that torrenting/stealing copyrighted material is illegal, don't you?

Most products come with a money back guarantee. You can PURCHASE the product and then return it for a refund if it sucks.

I spent two years writing my book and I packed it with 187 pages of content and cut out all the filler. I'd be really pissed if people were going on torrent sites to steal it without paying the measly $60 that I priced it at.

Maybe one day when you put your blood, sweat and tears into a vision and birth it to life, you'll understand that it's disrespectful when others steal it without compensating you for your work... especially when you're creating value for the lives of others. Wouldn't you be pissed if your boss decided for whatever reason that he wasn't going to pay you for two weeks worth of work? Now multiply that loss by 52 and imagine how irritated you'd be.

And if you're gonna grab stuff off torrent sites, at least keep it on the d-low instead of saying this: "And you don't even have to pay for it to try it. " Your pickup lines, body language, top hat and goggles will help you attract women initially... but it's your values and integrity that'll make them stick around.

Jesus Christ, dude.

 

[Anubis]

When did I ever say they are scam artists or that their material is illogical? I commented on the tendency for seduction gurus to convince their customers that a man's financial status is irrelevant for seducing the kind of woman that he wants to be with. What does this have to do with human psychology and whether or not it's exquisitely logical?

First of all, I never said you did. Second of all, I admitted that the marketing was outlandish. But again, marketing has nothing to do with the actual information in the program.

Do you think it's ethical to encourage people to download products for free on torrent sites? You do realize that torrenting/stealing copyrighted material is illegal, don't you?

Most products come with a money back guarantee. You can PURCHASE the product and then return it for a refund if it sucks.

I spent two years writing my book and I packed it with 187 pages of content and cut out all the filler. I'd be really pissed if people were going on torrent sites to steal it without paying the measly $60 that I priced it at.

Maybe one day when you put your blood, sweat and tears into a vision and birth it to life, you'll understand that it's disrespectful when others steal it without compensating you for your work... especially when you're creating value for the lives of others. Wouldn't you be pissed if your boss decided for whatever reason that he wasn't going to pay you for two weeks worth of work? Now multiply that loss by 52 and imagine how irritated you'd be.

And if you're gonna grab stuff off torrent sites, at least keep it on the d-low instead of saying this: "And you don't even have to pay for it to try it. " Your pickup lines, body language, top hat and goggles will help you attract women initially... but it's your values and integrity that'll make them stick around.

Jesus Christ, dude.

Did you even fully read what I said before you decided to spew out 5 paragraphs of self-righteous diatribe?

I said "You just have to know how to torrent it. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, just delete it." I was offering the torrent for evaluation purposes only. Nowhere did I say that the user could download the product, keep it, and then not pay for it. I even explicitly used the word "TRY" in the sentence you quoted to signify that I intended it to be used for evaluation purposes only.

Please. Before you attack someone's values and integrity, make sure you're attacking the right thing. If you have a problem with people trying things out before they buy something and not tying themselves to financial agreements that may or may not be honored, then that's another argument (with strong viewpoints on both sides). But don't automatically assume that people are morally bankrupt because they disagree with your viewpoints.

 

[Jay Cataldo]

I was offering the torrent for evaluation purposes only. Nowhere did I say that the user could download the product, keep it, and then not pay for it. I even explicitly used the word "TRY" in the sentence you quoted to signify that I intended it to be used for evaluation purposes only.

Please. Before you attack someone's values and integrity, make sure you're attacking the right thing. If you have a problem with people trying things out before they buy something and not tying themselves to financial agreements that may or may not be honored, then that's another argument (with strong viewpoints on both sides).

Oh... my bad. I didn't realize you are offering the torrent ONLY for evaluation purposes. Whoops... lol Thanks for setting the record straight.

So do I have your permission to go to Best Buy, take home a computer without paying for it, try it for two weeks and then send them a check if I wanna keep it? Are you saying you'll come to my trial and convince the judge that I was just "evaluating" the product as opposed to shoplifting? Thank god. I can finally cut up my credit cards.

I wonder if your opinion is also honored at the local Quik-E Mart. This discussion is making me hungry and I can't find my wallet. Mmmmm... brownies....

But don't automatically assume that people are morally bankrupt because they disagree with your viewpoints.

Actually, I was automatically assuming that some people are FINANCIALLY bankrupt because you disagree with THE LAW.

Unbelievable.