Women and sexuality

[Barry25]

I really hope I don't offend anybody with this opening post, but I feel I have to circulate some ideas - and feelings - that have yet to explored on this forum in detail. Yes, we have skirted on the themes of sexual rejection and human relationships already, but I want to deal with specifics here. Hopefully both the male and female posters will gain something from this post, and it will boost understanding.

I am sure that what lies at the heart of anxiety for the male posters here is the rejection of the idea that they have any value as a man. Not just sexual rejection. But their value as a provider, a doer, all those things that men are supposed to be.

But what I want to explore here, and discuss with other posters, is the deliberate targeting of Western women by the monopolised mass media...They are being encouraged to be selfish and cruel towards men, to be promiscuous, to rebel, and so on. This is an ongoing and systematic campaign. It it hurting men, and their ability to love, and it must be overcome if the world is to have any kind of future. This MTV world is destroying real human relationships. It is a civilisation wrecker.

All these conflicting messages are going out, and women don't know how to behave. They don't know which men it is 'socially acceptable' to be with. Instead they look to the crowd, which has been ruined by this MTV monstrosity, for guidance on the qualities they should be looking for. The result is disaster. Women are looking at men through the eyes of a ruined society. We cannot win.

We also have a situation whereby multiculturalism is being forced upon the native populations of these islands. Teachers are brainwashing young Englishmen and women to hate themselves and their history. The truth is, we have always been welcoming to immigrants. The controlled media is hostile to the native peoples of this country, and this is something that many, many people have a hard time recognising or accepting - yet it is at the root cause of so many of our social problems. I am against hate as I believe love is the only thing that has a lasting effect - but I reject the globalist conspiracy which demonises white people and encourages minorities to blame them for all that is wrong with the world.

It is simply a political control mechanism which coerces people of different, often conflicting cultures to live and work together - when this should be through choice of co-operation alone. Self-determination, not imperialism, should be the order of the day, if we are to avoid a rerun of the disasters of the 20th century.

The factors above are, I feel, critical to understanding how powerful a problem social anxiety has become in the UK and the US particularly.

Yes, a lot of men are terrible, aggressive, lacking in class etc. too, but what makes me fearful around women is the fact that they have no consciousness and they just mirror what they think society wants them to believe or do. They lead very narrow lives influenced by the crowd.

I want to pinpoint exactly what makes me feel nervous. It's the fact that they think men they are not attracted to are BAD people, and the men they are attracted to must be good people. And I've noticed that if women recognise your nervousness, they assume you only care about sex, while they give the benefit of the doubt to men who are confident but only care about sex. It's the greatest hypocrisy. They simply have no clue about working out men, it's more to do with raising their status among other women, or living life through somebody else.

This not only makes me anxious, but also scared for future generations.

Your thoughts?

 

[black_mamba]

Hmm interesting. Well for me, being someone who used to read a lot around gender issues, this is an opinion I have become accustomed to.

However I don't understand how something as personal as social anxiety could be heightened by conflicting cultures and strong women, uselss you are specifically intimidated by those things.

I am sure that what lies at the heart of anxiety for the male posters here is the rejection of the idea that they have any value as a man. Not just sexual rejection. But their value as a provider, a doer, all those things that men are supposed to be.

Are you scared that the gender roles are shifting around? I mean, surely the idea that society giving women the confidence to be independant bodies isn't a bad thing - society is a dynamic fluid thingy-ma-jiggy - just because its suddenly acceptable to be an independant strong woman doesn't mean that all of us and gonna throw away our partners and start treating men disrespectfully. (and that certainly isn't the meaning of independance anyway!)

Again, not too sure what you mean about being worried about your role as a provider. Changing attitudes towards family values?

But what I want to explore here, and discuss with other posters, is the deliberate targeting of Western women by the monopolised mass media...They are being encouraged to be selfish and cruel towards men, to be promiscuous, to rebel, and so on.

:lol: Aw you make it sound so awful. Firstly, I doubt the influence is that strong, and frankly if you are that easily influenced tough shit. Secondly I think you're missing the point, women are being taught that being idependant is good (esp for their self-esteem!), I don't see how this translates as being selfish.

All these conflicting messages are going out, and women don't know how to behave. They don't know which men it is 'socially acceptable' to be with. Instead they look to the crowd, which has been ruined by this MTV monstrosity, for guidance on the qualities they should be looking for. The result is disaster. Women are looking at men through the eyes of a ruined society. We cannot win.

I think I see what you're getting at - nice guys don't win with Alpha female types?

We also have a situation whereby multiculturalism is being forced upon the native populations of these islands. Teachers are brainwashing young Englishmen and women to hate themselves and their history. The truth is, we have always been welcoming to immigrants.

Now this bit is interesting. I'd never considered the issue of british heritage as a social damager but you put across some interesting points. My parents came to the UK as refugees from the gulf war and I've lived as a Brit ever since being born in London. To be honest I've never see any form of culture here apart from alcohol, but what have the immigrants got to do with the UK's waning traditions and heritage?

Yes, a lot of men are terrible, aggressive, lacking in class etc. too, but what makes me fearful around women is the fact that they have no consciousness and they just mirror what they think society wants them to believe or do. They lead very narrow lives influenced by the crowd.

I agree that most people regardless of gender follow the crowd. But it just makes finding those eccentric few a treat!

It's the fact that they think men they are not attracted to are BAD people, and the men they are attracted to must be good people

Sorry but this is not true. Not 100% anyway, but what have you experienced that has made you think this way?

 

[Fredscars]

no offence meant, but you come across as very conservative - women should stay in the home and raise a family, type of opinion.
All those things you put in, about women becoming more independant, about

But their value as a provider, a doer, all those things that men are supposed to be.

maybe men are losing this, because women can do this too.
Im not "all for women" and all that, but ersoanlly i cant undestand how someone can blame the changing social status, and situation for thier anxiety. Things are changing, yes. I know people can find that hard to deal with, but i doubt its the cause of anxiety.
I agree with worrydoll, we women arent that two dimensional. Theres not that much difference between men and women, perhaps if you accept that fact, then you can come to terms with whatever your probolem is.

 

[Barry25]

I can't accept that fact, because it simply is not true!!!

Men and women are completely different.

It is sad that so many people have been deceived into degrading themselves with low culture, i.e. sitting in front of the TV every night, going out to get drunk, and so on, both men and women. Men are FAR from perfect. I am not arguing that point.

Anyhow, I would like to take issue on what the immigrant poster has pointed out. A middle easterner who has sought sanctuary in a society that was developed by northern European males - and more than that, exactly the kind of northern European male who is a perfectionist, who is dedicated to higher things and does not go out drinking every night. And yet she denies the existence of culture in that same society, saying that EVERYBODY in that society has no culture and simply drinks all the time.

So why did you come here? Why not another middle-eastern country?

I hate to sound like an uneducated lorry-driver, but it's a valid point. You are denying the source of what you see around you. The PC was not invented by middle easterners - or alcoholic Englishmen. It was another breed of person, a vulnerable breed of person.

Moreover, most northern European men simply do not find non-European women attractive. I think people should be learning to love their own race here.

Also, to all those who cannot even spell the word 'independent' properly - I don't know what you mean by 'independent women.'

Women falling around drunk, sleeping with multiple partners, having a very narrow life dominated by TV - is hardly independent. It's embarrassing.

 

[black_mamba]

Anyhow, I would like to take issue on what the immigrant poster has pointed out. A middle easterner who has sought sanctuary in a society that was developed by northern European males - and more than that, exactly the kind of northern European male who is a perfectionist, who is dedicated to higher things and does not go out drinking every night. And yet she denies the existence of culture in that same society, saying that EVERYBODY in that society has no culture and simply drinks all the time.

To be honest I've never see any form of culture here apart from alcohol, but what have the immigrants got to do with the UK's waning traditions and heritage?

I said that this is what I have experienced personally. I did not state it as a fact as you make out. By the way shouldn't you be pleased that there are girls out there who do not suscribe to the drinking/sleeping around/using men mentality?

So why did you come here? Why not another middle-eastern country?

You obviously are not reading the posts (I thought you wanted to DISCUSS not argue) but my parents came here. I was a mere clump of cells when the decision was made.

Also, to all those who cannot even spell the word 'independent' properly - I don't know what you mean by 'independent women.'

Well that just seals it doesn't it. Flaming minor typos? Lets have an adult debate without it resorting to childish 'I can spell better than you' bullshit please. :roll:

 

[Fredscars]

From your point of view, maybe it is embarressing, but i refuse to to follow what is the old layout for a woman. If you believe in these old traditions then surely you are saying we women should not be taken into higher education, that at school we should learn to sew and cook?
so my life should consist of sewing and cooking, then marrying at 18, having kids soon after, have the dinner on the table for my loving husband who returns from work every evening? He is the one who reads the newspaper, because as a woman i am not suited to politics?
i think not. I shall go to university, go out with my mates and get pissed if i feel like it. Yes i shall marry, have kids, but when i want to. I dont know how sew, and my cooking is atroscious, but really i couldnt care less.
Im not trying to turn into man, but i dont see why there should be such a big deal about how we should stay different. What gives men the right to say where a womans place is?

so, to all those who cannot even spell the word 'independent' properly - I don't know what you mean by 'independent women.'

spelling mistakes do not mean that we arent intelligent enough to make our point.
independent women? what do you mean by independent men? men who dont depend on others, who can live THEIR life like THEY wish to. Its exactly the same for women. We have no need to rely on our husbands to bring in the money, we have a life of our own.
Live your life like you wish to, but dont say that the rest of Britain is wrong for doing what they wish simply because it doesnt conform to your way of mind.

 

[black_mamba]

Before this thread goes any further I'd like to say that I really don't want this to turn into a personal insult-slinging match. I'm interested in the ideas expressed in the initial post, and I am very open minded towards new ideas so its not a case of my idea vs yours, but its very hard to take on board an argument that is so reactionary and angry. 8O

Come on dude, be nice, we're not the enemy.

 

[Fredscars]

Before this thread goes any further I'd like to say that I really don't want this to turn into a personal insult-slinging match. I'm interested in the ideas expressed in the initial post, and I am very open minded towards new ideas so its not a case of my idea vs yours, but its very hard to take on board an argument that is so reactionary and angry. 8O

Come on dude, be nice, we're not the enemy.

agreed i get a bit uptight and feel the need to express my opinion when somebody goes so strongly against what i believe. So yeah, barry25, thats simply my opinion.

 

[racheH]

All these conflicting messages are going out, and women don't know how to behave. They don't know which men it is 'socially acceptable' to be with. Instead they look to the crowd, which has been ruined by this MTV monstrosity, for guidance on the qualities they should be looking for. The result is disaster. Women are looking at men through the eyes of a ruined society. We cannot win.

I've often felt that TV portrays women as having the right to treat men disrespectfully too. However I don't think that many women are affected by it in the way you suggest. Most people either don't care whether or not they are acceptable to society, so long as they can keep enough friends to satisfy their natural instinct to be around people (and have a support network should they need it); or even if they are slightly phobic, believe in their ability to keep good friends and partners just by being themselves. I can only think of two groups who are likely to copy personalities from the media: children, as fun and games, part of learning about people; and self-doubters who are either phobic of disapproval or just desperate to make friends/partners. While the latter may include most of us here, it’s not the majority of people in the UK. Further, of all the people with some kind of social anxiety, I don’t believe many would choose to adopt the kind of harsh, devil-may-care attitude which you describe towards anyone, including in sexual relationships. That would be just begging people to hate you.

I am sure that what lies at the heart of anxiety for the male posters here is the rejection of the idea that they have any value as a man. Not just sexual rejection. But their value as a provider, a doer, all those things that men are supposed to be.

Everyone wants something different from a relationship. Today's average Western woman probably wants very different things to the average one of just 50 years ago, and the same is true of men. I think you'll find the most common attributes looked for by women today are likely to be: caring, understanding, gentleness, respect, honesty, sense of humour and not necessarily someone to 'look after' her physical needs, although most want someone at least independent. Emotional support is now more important. Of course there are those who prefer the rough and ready types, but these aren't as common and most of them grow out of that preference to settle down with a 'nice boy' eventually.

It’s interesting to get a male perspective on this though. You talk about the rejection of qualities which men are ‘supposed to’ have. Perhaps the problem is here is a need to meet average expectations. Because we are a much more liberal country now, what’s expected varies much from person to person. There is no longer a standard way to be, based on gender or on much else. I would have thought that would make it easier for men, but maybe it confuses those who hope to blend in but at the same time get noticed in a positive way. (I’ve not had much interest in relationships thus far, so the idea of wanting to be noticed at all is a little foreign. :wink: )

It is simply a political control mechanism which coerces people of different, often conflicting cultures to live and work together - when this should be through choice of co-operation alone. Self-determination, not imperialism, should be the order of the day, if we are to avoid a rerun of the disasters of the 20th century.

I went to a traditional English summer fete a few weeks ago, held at my sister’s traditional Church of England Junior School. Attending this fete were parents and children of a variety of races and cultures. Performing for us were groups of Scottish Country Dancers, Majorettes (who used pom-poms, a curious injection of US culture) Karate students and a wide range of other art forms from different parts of the world. Especially in light of recent events, it’s a beautiful image in my mind of one group of eight year olds holding hands and dancing in a circle, unaware of superficial differences between them, just enjoying the experience of sharing an activity they love with others. No one appeared to have been coerced into going, or their children into joining the clubs. Around my local towns anyone can choose between church or mosque, Cornish pasty or Indian kebab, English Morris dance or Irish River dance. Any clashes tend to be between grungers and chavs, so-called sub-cultures, to which anyone from anywhere can enrol.
Multiculturalism only makes it easier to meet like-minded people, and to be more aware of our native culture.

About black_mamba’s point, technically, the level of binge drinking in a country is a part of its culture. Being honest doesn’t mean she is unpatriotic necessarily. If you love something, you can choose either to not see its faults, or to understand and do something about them. I’m lucky enough to have mainly experienced positive Brit culture first-hand. If it weren’t for an honest media, I might live my whole life believing that it is the same for everyone. As it is, should I work in politics, as I would much like, I know that an issue to be worked on is that museums, libraries, local food markets, festivals and artistic, sporting and cultural activities from a young age aren’t accessible to everybody. Historical landmarks like those I’ve taken for granted are under constant threat. This won’t change if it’s not admitted to by the people who care the most, as you yourself obviously do. Blaming other cultures is easy, but in my experience, no one is more interested in discovering a land’s good-points than relative newcomers to it.

Moreover, most northern European men simply do not find non-European women attractive. I think people should be learning to love their own race here.

If that's true, it must be some psychological issue. Nature intends us to be more attracted to people with the most different genes to ourselves - it's a natural instinct. But so is distrust of what we don't understand. Because our species was reduced to 10, 000 some time ago, our gene pool is dangerously small compared with most species. It is why we suffer so many more genetic disorders, and possibly why we tend to kill each other more than other intelligent mammals. Inbred dogs can be aggressive. Humans are no different. To narrow our gene pool furthur would have no benefits at all.

We also have a situation whereby multiculturalism is being forced upon the native populations of these islands. Teachers are brainwashing young Englishmen and women to hate themselves and their history. The truth is, we have always been welcoming to immigrants. The controlled media is hostile to the native peoples of this country, and this is something that many, many people have a hard time recognising or accepting - yet it is at the root cause of so many of our social problems. I am against hate as I believe love is the only thing that has a lasting effect - but I reject the globalist conspiracy which demonises white people and encourages minorities to blame them for all that is wrong with the world.

I’m a young English woman (almost) and haven’t experienced brainwashing that I’m aware of. History lessons and the media have become considerably more impartial than for instance, what I’ve seen of WWI and II propaganda. No one accused Iraqi soldiers of boiling babies, starving prisoners of war or any other concocted fantasy as was used against Germany. Stories of dirty deals and abuses of power on our part now stand half a chance of getting coverage, unlike the media black-hole which surrounded Sir Churchill’s foreign policies. Until these things are taken out of context, or positive things about Britain are denied or censored, I would say they prove a truer patriotism, with integrity, which doesn’t hide insecurities behind lies or gloating, or make others look inferior in order to seem superior. It loves its country, and so strives to educate the people, with straightforward facts, with which they can come to their own conclusions. It does this not for purposes of self-esteem, but in the hope that well-informed individuals will make the right decisions about how to make the land greener and pleasanter for all.

 

[Yossarian]

Your thoughts?

I think you need to stop reading the Daily Mail.

 

[annie]

Your thoughts?

I think you need to stop reading the Daily Mail.

Ditto :wink:

annie

 

[veryshy]

I know there is social engineering going on, but I just dontt see the type your describing. What I see is the trend is to push homosexuality on everybody. It seems anyway (I dont watch TV, so I only know what I see from time to time).

Not that I have anything wrong with homos, but they are just not that common, at least not here in rural america. Therefore this over influx of them in the media makes me believe it is some kind of agenda to prmote homosexuality.

 

[black_mamba]

Veryshy I see what you're getting at; there has certainly been a steady increase in the openess of tv producers to cast/create characters that are not heterosexual. But you shouldn't feel pressured by this in any way.

Some clichéd types such as the effeminate homosexual cross dressing man make for very entertaining tv (see UK Big Brother at the moment for a good example). Entertaining programmes = higher ratings = more $$$. This if anything is the hidden agenda you talked about.

Also the proportion of homo to hetero on tv is pretty darn close to the community at large, obviously this varies from region to region and country to country but its a pretty good balance.

Maybe people are just becoming more open to the idea of sexual variation so it seems like a massive change.

I see all this as a positive thing; more openess, more acceptance of lifestyles that vary from the norm, hopefully homophobia is becoming more unacceptable too.

Anyway my point is there is no hidden agenda.

What sort of social engineering / conditioning do you think is going on? 8O

 

[Angie_05]

Hopefully both the male and female posters will gain something from this post, and it will boost understanding.

I'm not quite understanding your point of view.

I am sure that what lies at the heart of anxiety for the male posters here is the rejection of the idea that they have any value as a man. Not just sexual rejection. But their value as a provider, a doer, all those things that men are supposed to be.

I think both men and women want to be providers and doers. Do you really want to do all the work while the woman stays home and does nothing to enrich her mind? Wouldn't you like to have a partner who can join you in your leisure activities and social gatherings and be able to carry on an intelligent conversation or challenge you in a sport?

All these conflicting messages are going out, and women don't know how to behave.

Behave? Hmmmm. Your language seems to imply that women are somehow trained through the course of their life to be either "good" girls or "bad" girls. Although socialization does play a huge part in making life choices and how we act, it is not black and white. I can be both. I've had my party days, but mostly I enjoy getting close to someone and taking care of them, and them taking care of me.

Teachers are brainwashing young Englishmen and women to hate themselves and their history.

I don't know if this is true, but whatever teachers are telling us, we are intelligent beings who can analyze incoming information and either accept it, reject it, or neither. In grade school and high school, it seemed like the emphasis was on honoring the first white people to settle here in the U.S. In college (university as some prefer), the emphasis seems to be on how corrupt the government is here, diversity, and acceptance of change (i.e. liberal views). This is my experience, but it may be different in other schools or regions.

Self-determination, not imperialism, should be the order of the day, if we are to avoid a rerun of the disasters of the 20th century.

The idea of self-determination or individualism seems ignorant to me. I have lived in areas where people have far fewer resources to better themselves than caucasian, middle to upper class people do. I think this is a matter of socialization. Some children are simply not encouraged to do the same things with their lives as caucasian children are. The resources to achieve them in the poor areas are scarce, and sometimes they are not exposed to the same things that caucasian middle to upper class children are.

The factors above are, I feel, critical to understanding how powerful a problem social anxiety has become in the UK and the US particularly.

How do we know that the problem of anxiety is worse now than it used to be? For most of the 20th century, people rejected the ideas of psychologists and physiologists studying the brain. Psychological disorders were not accepted by the public. Those who were diagnosed were thought of as crazy and a danger to society. People were not willingly walking into the doctor's office wanting to share their mental or emotional problems.

Yes, a lot of men are terrible, aggressive, lacking in class etc. too, but what makes me fearful around women is the fact that they have no consciousness and they just mirror what they think society wants them to believe or do. They lead very narrow lives influenced by the crowd.

Society influences everyone; men and women alike. I'm not sure if you are referring particularly to women who are focused on vanity or their appearance to others, or if you are referring to something else. In the case of vanity, yes it is a problem. It affects all of us, but differently to some than others. I am one of those women who gave into the pressures of society, and felt for a long time that I was too fat to be accepted, even though I was a normal weight for my age/height. So I started starving myself and doing disgusting things to look thinner. It worked, but I never felt better. I now have empathy for those kind of women. If you look deeper, you may find someone who has a lot more to them than just their looks or the way they act when they are out with their friends.

In conclusion, I should say that my boyfriend loves me because I am independent and I can take care of myself and him if I need to. We enjoy playing sports together and working towards making our business more profitable. He likes that I don't need to ask him for things or that I can't figure things out on my own. He likes that he can take me to social events and that I can talk to his friends without sounding like an airhead. I have been out and done things. I don't just sit around the house and do traditional womanly things.

Men and women are different and the same. It has been proven that we have different brain physiology, which affects our abilities. So men and women may be better at different things, but that does not mean that qualities from both sexes aren't needed in all different aspects of life. Time has changed. Society now needs women to step up and do things.

 

[Angie_05]

I know there is social engineering going on, but I just dontt see the type your describing. What I see is the trend is to push homosexuality on everybody. It seems anyway (I dont watch TV, so I only know what I see from time to time).

Not that I have anything wrong with homos, but they are just not that common, at least not here in rural america. Therefore this over influx of them in the media makes me believe it is some kind of agenda to prmote homosexuality.

Homosexuality is more common than you think. I go to a university where my best guy friend is homosexual. One day we were sitting outside by one of the busiest sidewalks during classes, and he began pointing out other guys who he knew were gay because he had seen them out at gay social gatherings. I was shocked. So many of them were either in the closet or acted straight (if it is possible to "act straight").

If you are accustomed to hanging around only rural areas, I suggest you visit urban areas and see how different it is from where you are.

 

[veryshy]

What sort of social engineering / conditioning do you think is going on?

Make people more accepting of governmental and corporate tyranny and intrusiveness. Promote homosexuality and abstinence to combat population growth. Scare the living crap out of people with this terrorism stuff.

Making people believe theres only two feasable candidates and/or political parties for governmental positions

Hegelian propaganda designed to make you draw a certain conclusion through the managment of information presented.

Ever heard the saying "Say a lie long enough and loud enough and it becomes true" or something to that effect?