Unpopular opinions

[bleach]

Parents don't want what is best for their children. They want what is best for themselves.

If you look at the way parents raise their children, you see two clear themes arise: the first is for their kids to be "safe" at all times, and to steer clear of risky behavior. The second is to pursue long-term heterosexual relationships with the ultimate goal of producing more kids. The reason? Yes, it's the same old genetics game -- keeping the bloodline alive, preserving their legacy on their world into subsequent generations and, they hope, perpetuity. Parents don't want their children to be courageous, unique, creative, or even necessarily happy. Those characteristics would only sacrifice a "normal" life for one with an increased risk of mortal danger, which would put the bloodline at risk. Raising children is an entirely selfish action.

I would also like to add that most people, once they make the decision to raise kids (or to keep the one they involuntarily made), live such incredibly dull lives that i don't see how they can stand it.

 

[Thelema]

If their parents thought there was anything better, they would have done it themselves. If their kids don't show any enthusiasm for sports or doesn't excel in school, then they're probably just going to lead normal lives. But I have to point out, normal people don't exist. Have you ever met a normal person? Really think about it. Nobody has ever been normal nor will there ever be a normal person born

But to go deeper down the rabbit hole...

"Just when, or where, has it ever been
demonstrated that the majority were right about anything. But it might be true that the majority are wrong about
damned near everything; and you can count on it, the `experts' are always wrong"--Arthur Jones

 

[bleach]

If their parents thought there was anything better, they would have done it themselves.

Overlooks lots of attainability issues like degree of difficulty vs. individual talent, competition, situation, luck, etc.

If their kids don't show any enthusiasm for sports or doesn't excel in school, then they're probably just going to lead normal lives.

People that excel in school or sports also lead normal lives, most of the time.

But I have to point out, normal people don't exist. Have you ever met a normal person? Really think about it. Nobody has ever been normal nor will there ever be a normal person born

Of course. Which is why i put the word "normal" in quotes to begin with, to acknowledge that it is a popular myth -- but just because a belief is false doesn't mean that it is powerless, as long as most people believe in it.

"Just when, or where, has it ever been
demonstrated that the majority were right about anything. But it might be true that the majority are wrong about
damned near everything; and you can count on it, the `experts' are always wrong"--Arthur Jones

"In shadowboxing, sometimes the shadows become real" -- we pursue in an idealized version of reality that adds to or even supplants "real" reality as we overwhelm an objective worldview with the one we want to be true.

 

[krs2snow]

Bleach, Bleach, Bleach. I won't go all "Marie_knows best" on your ass, but what are you po'd about on this subject? For real, I think you are angry.

One element I think you are possibly missing is that having children completely changes your priorities in life. You go from focusing Only on yourself to focusing all your energy on your child.

A time when you used to want to hang-out with your friends, soon becomes a time when you just want to be with your child. A time when you used to want to go to the local pub, now becomes a time to bond with your child. Perhaps, I should have prefaced this by saying "Everything we do in life is motivated by selfishness". So, what the heck? Why not be motivated by our own selfish reasons and do something good at the same time?

In shadowboxing, sometimes the shadows become real" -- we pursue in an idealized version of reality that adds to or even supplants "real" reality as we overwhelm an objective worldview with the one we want to be true.

What!? ... Wow! That was difficult to follow! Not sure I understand exactly what you're saying here, however, I think you are again looking at childbearing from a closed mindset. Do we idealize life and wish/hope that our children find for themselves the very characteristics which have evaded us? Of course! Yet another promise children offer! We imagine them being successful, happy, fulfilled! These may only be our deepest wishes but what's so wrong with that?

 

[bleach]

One element I think you are possibly missing is that having children completely changes your priorities in life. You go from focusing Only on yourself to focusing all your energy on your child.

A time when you used to want to hang-out with your friends, soon becomes a time when you just want to be with your child. A time when you used to want to go to the local pub, now becomes a time to bond with your child. Perhaps, I should have prefaced this by saying "Everything we do in life is motivated by selfishness". So, what the heck? Why not be motivated by our own selfish reasons and do something good at the same time?

Believe me, i have no false notions about selfishness as "evil" and selflessness as "good". People act in their own best interests most of the time, if not all of the time. However, your own reaction demonstrates how people are inundated with the opposite viewpoint. I say that parenting is selfish, you immediately assumed that i'm making a negative judgment against parents. Because most people DO see selfish as "wrong", or even "evil" in many cases. So your reaction was reasonable, but wrong. The reality is that i made no judgment at all, I'm just trying to give a clear-headed, objective look at some of the popular myths of humanity. Criticism is welcome.

I DO have a very cynical view of most people's parenting skills, which led me to question their motives in the first place. Although having selfish motives does not exempt good parenting, it's worth keeping the big picture in mind when you're questioning those cases of "why are these people treating their kids so badly? why doesn't that mother/father accept his/her children for his individuality?"

What!? ... Wow! That was difficult to follow! Not sure I understand exactly what you're saying here, however, I think you are again looking at childbearing from a closed mindset. Do we idealize life and wish/hope that our children find for themselves the very characteristics which have evaded us? Of course! Yet another promise children offer! We imagine them being successful, happy, fulfilled! These may only be our deepest wishes but what's so wrong with that?

That part wasn't about childbearing, I was merely reacting to what Thelema wrote. That quote has more to do with popular myths in general.

Your point about children's success is a good one, but you also raise a question at the same time: WHOSE definition of success, happiness, and fulfillment are the parents hoping for? Even though they may wish "the good life" on their children, the meaning of that phrase is as varied as there are people to think it. Do the parents see the child's goals as valuable? And if they don't, then how much satisfaction/approval could parents truly hold for their children when they see their children's "accomplishments" as inherently worthless?

 

[krs2snow]

Hi again!

Hey, I wasn't being a jerk when I posted

What!? ... Wow! That was difficult to follow! Not sure I understand exactly what you're saying...

I really didn't/don't understand what you're saying!

I'm just saying everything we do is motivated by selfish desires. Even the most kind-hearted act is, in the end, acted upon by the person to fulfill a desire within themselves, hence, selfish. Maybe that desire is simply to achieve the good feeling you get knowing you helped someone. It doesn't actually matter what the desire is, it is still selfish. Whether that's good, bad or indifferent, I don't know but that's human nature.

I'm just trying to give a clear-headed, objective look at some of the popular myths of humanity.

I have to say I think you are anything but objective on this subject! (No offense, of course!)

I DO have a very cynical view of most people's parenting skills

And... you seem to agree with me. (?)

The reality is that i made no judgment at all,

Whose reality is this? Are you shadowboxing? haha! (whatever the heck that is!) 'Cause that sure ain't the reality of this situation! Lets correct this statement. It should read: The reality is I am fraught with judgment.

you immediately assumed that i'm making a negative judgment against parents.

I don't think I assumed anything. I simply posted some points I thought you might be overlooking regarding parenting and having children. Also, I reminded you that all human actions are carried out with selfish motivation at their core. But anyway, Um... you Are. (at this time, please refer to 2nd quote... and/or your entire 2 posts on this thread )

Anyway, I still haven't the slightest idea what you're saying. :? Please don't take this the wrong way but, I think you should cut the crap and post- in short and precise words- what you're really talking about.

Criticism is welcome.

Hey, you invited it!

 

[kyle]

Parents don't want what is best for their children. They want what is best for themselves.

If you look at the way parents raise their children, you see two clear themes arise: the first is for their kids to be "safe" at all times, and to steer clear of risky behavior. The second is to pursue long-term heterosexual relationships with the ultimate goal of producing more kids. The reason? Yes, it's the same old genetics game -- keeping the bloodline alive, preserving their legacy on their world into subsequent generations and, they hope, perpetuity. Parents don't want their children to be courageous, unique, creative, or even necessarily happy. Those characteristics would only sacrifice a "normal" life for one with an increased risk of mortal danger, which would put the bloodline at risk. Raising children is an entirely selfish action.
.

Unfortunately, you would be incorrect. I love my child more than life itself...

 

[bleach]

Hi again!

Hey, I wasn't being a jerk when I posted

What!? ... Wow! That was difficult to follow! Not sure I understand exactly what you're saying...

I really didn't/don't understand what you're saying!

I'm just saying everything we do is motivated by selfish desires. Even the most kind-hearted act is, in the end, acted upon by the person to fulfill a desire within themselves, hence, selfish. Maybe that desire is simply to achieve the good feeling you get knowing you helped someone. It doesn't actually matter what the desire is, it is still selfish. Whether that's good, bad or indifferent, I don't know but that's human nature.

The popular myth is that parenting is a selfless job.

I'm saying that it's not.

You agree with me, but seem to think that we disagree because I'm not putting the same positive spin on it as you are.

I have to say I think you are anything but objective on this subject! (No offense, of course!)

And... you seem to agree with me. (?)

I don't think anyone can be completely objective on a topic. Everyone brings some bias in their perspective.

Does that mean I can't TRY to be as objective AS POSSIBLE?

I don't think I assumed anything. I simply posted some points I thought you might be overlooking regarding parenting and having children. Also, I reminded you that all human actions are carried out with selfish motivation at their core. But anyway, Um... you Are. (at this time, please refer to 2nd quote... and/or your entire 2 posts on this thread )

"What are you po'd about" isn't making an assumption?

"You are" what? PO'd? No. And would it be relevant, even if I was, since you seem to agree with the basic premise of what I said?

Anyway, I still haven't the slightest idea what you're saying. :? Please don't take this the wrong way but, I think you should cut the crap and post- in short and precise words- what you're really talking about.

:?

 

[krs2snow]

Hola, Bleach!

"You are" what?

This comment: "But anyway, you Are " had nothing to do with the impression I have of you being angry over this topic. Rather, it is in response to the quote:

you immediately assumed that i'm making a negative judgment against parents.

In other words, I did not assume you were making a negative judgment... you simply Are making a negative judgment.

I don't think anyone can be completely objective on a topic. Everyone brings some bias in their perspective.

Then why did you say

The reality is that i made no judgment at all

You've asked if the question "What are you po'd about" is not, in fact, an assumption. To answer, yes it is! However, you were not referring to this when you said I had assumed. Again:

you immediately assumed that i'm making a negative judgment against parents.

This is what we were talking about when we spoke of assuming.

Jeez! That was a looong circle to run around! Haha! Off topic, I wonder if you're a fellow Aquarian because I always find myself running in endless circles of discussion w/other Aquarians. Not that I believe in any of that astrological, mumbo-jumbo, bullshit anyway. But, I regress.

Sorry for all the quotations, btw, I'm just trying to be as clear as possible. To wrap this extremely long post of mine up, thank you for clarifying your point- and in a very short and precise way, I might add! You are correct, I do believe we agree parenting is indeed a selfish act. However, we seem to part ways when it comes to why this is so. My reasoning behind saying this is that EVERYTHING humans do is done through selfishness. Your reasoning is... idk, bloodlines? Haha! That is soo funny! :lol: Personally, I could care less about carrying on the family legacy, or lack there of. And I really don't think my sister, for example, was scheming- with selfish hopes in her heart for continuing the families' gene pool- future heterosexual practices for her child when she decided to have her first. Nor was she ruminating over fantasies of longevity and propriety when she had her second. But, you know, everyone is entitled to their own theories!

 

[kyle]

Parenting is definitely not a selfish act. Every child you create costs roughy $200,000 to raise. That includes shelter, food, clothing, school supplies, sports lessons, toys, daycare, etc. Plus, you have to devote countless hours to make sure your child is getting proper care.

It is one of the most selfless acts you could do.

 

[sabbath92003]

I can't afford kids. Hell, I can't even afford myself. My opinion is people should: study, earn a degree, start a career, own a house, travel the world, save money. And then maybe a adopt a child before overpopulating the world more by having their own child. I'm currently back at phase one: trying to study and earn a degree with which I can earn real money. But with the price of health care, housing, education, etc. , I think it'll be a long time before I can afford a hamster, let alone a child.

 

[krs2snow]

I think Bleach, bletch, whatever, caved on this topic. Good job, guys! We must have proved our point(S)!!


Better?

 

[bleach]

krs2snow,

I don't see how any two people in this thread had the same point to begin with, so I don't know why you implied people were agreeing with you. kyle said it was selfless (you didn't) and sabbath said he can't afford kids. Did you want me to argue some more?

Although, since you brought it up...

Your reasoning is... idk, bloodlines? Haha! That is soo funny! Laughing Personally, I could care less about carrying on the family legacy, or lack there of. And I really don't think my sister, for example, was scheming- with selfish hopes in her heart for continuing the families' gene pool- future heterosexual practices for her child when she decided to have her first. Nor was she ruminating over fantasies of longevity and propriety when she had her second. But, you know, everyone is entitled to their own theories!

Yes, I am entitled to that. No thanks to you for pointing it out in the most condescending way possible.

I didn't mean that anyone was scheming over this. It's a subconscious thing. People don't analyze MOST of their motivations beyond a very superficial level. Most people don't question why they play sports; they just do it because it's fun. Most people don't question why they they are attracted to a person, beyond a few qualities (a sense of humor, a great ass, etc.); but they don't question why those qualities are desirable. That doesn't mean that the subliminal reasons, the real reasons, aren't there.

Obviously I could be wrong about this particular reason. It's not like I know everything. But this is what my observations point to.

A lot of men are attracted to big boobs. But I don't think any men look at them and think "You know what, if we had a baby, the mammary glands in those things would be perfect for feeding a child..."

 

[Cool_Un_Cool]

In a way it is selfish, look at those beauty pagent Moms, or football Dads who live vicariously through their children. But, not all are like that. I wouldn't have kids, even if I were married b/c I don't think it's morally right considering my physical disabilities, which may affect the child, plus I can barely function by myself.

 

[Marie_knowsbest]

good job it werent marie_knows best mumbo jumbo because i would of been ashamed of that arguement if that was supposed to sound like me lol. krs2snow u need to get over me love.

but anyways, i think its sad when it come to a point where you even find something evil in parenting. like what was said earlier, generally parents love their children more than life itself, their children become their life!! i think to me parenthood is about making the best out of guiding a new life on this earth in the right direction, which you as a parent feel is best for the child.

i dont see how spending nearly all your time, money, love, paitence etc into a child is selfish??? what material gain would you get out it? you get emotional gain, but that is from seeing your child happy and growing well. where as most of time parents are exhausted!!! its hard work raising kids!!!

do you have children yourself to make ur view otherwise?

 

[kyle]

good job it werent marie_knows best mumbo jumbo because i would of been ashamed of that arguement if that was supposed to sound like me lol. krs2snow u need to get over me love.

but anyways, i think its sad when it come to a point where you even find something evil in parenting. like what was said earlier, generally parents love their children more than life itself, their children become their life!! i think to me parenthood is about making the best out of guiding a new life on this earth in the right direction, which you as a parent feel is best for the child.

i dont see how spending nearly all your time, money, love, paitence etc into a child is selfish??? what material gain would you get out it? you get emotional gain, but that is from seeing your child happy and growing well. where as most of time parents are exhausted!!! its hard work raising kids!!!

do you have children yourself to make ur view otherwise?

that's an awesome post. I could not hae said it better myself..

 

[Fairy001]

I haven't got kids, but I really do agree with Nikki about this. And, very well put.


Peace xxx

 

[bleach]

this_is_y,

i werent sure where u saw me say it was evil love lol , i think u mite be puttin words in my mouth dont u think??? kinda sad to hav too make up things i said just to get at me lol but sod it anyways, i'm not hear to find mates like some of u i just have an opionion... an yeh sometime i sounds ofensive but u kno that is just how i am lol. and buy the way i dont haf children but i dont kneed them to no what im talkin about lov, coz i am in trainin for a psycholigy degree an know plenty of the human brain. now get out of my face wit this bull crap mate im done with you lol.

 

[Marie_knowsbest]

mate....i didnt say evil love did i lol i said u put a evil spin on parenting. yes i do psychology, and yes i have no troubles in saying, from a proffesional point of view, your one negative, sad little man, who has a very warped perspective on life and the meaning of it. al u say is one liners, which half the time dont make sense, like a few people have said about ur posts on this topic, i even agree with some of what krs2snow said.

u said ur done with me, i dont even wanna start on you. ur world and my world are very different places.

open up abit, learn to love, and ull be alot happier.

 

[Fairy001]

Bleach, you write "I am not here to find mates like some of you, I just have an opinion".

This is interesting, the two are able to be achieved. Expression of views and friendship ARE compatible. Also I would think that a site dedicated to people that mainly suffer in the same way would be an ideal place to make friends.

Peace xxx