Is there a hell?

Zipper

Zipper

Well-known member
OK, I started this topic because I used to believe all of the doctrines that people are taught to believe on the testimony of the Bible. In fact, my parents are missionaries -- Bible Translators, no less. In short, I believed that their was a divine penalty for sin that would be rendered upon a sinner or Christ as his substitute. 8O

Now, I believe that the Bible is a kind of "Chain Letter." Functionally it's equivalent: It warns of a risk of your welfare ("divine penalty for sin") and tells you that you will escape the risk if you believe that the risk exists ("justification by faith") and if you send the letter to several of your friends ("sharing the Good News"). It's a distortion of human thought, that is a form of a mental cognitive virus. :?

There are no divine penalties for sin. Rendering a penalty must be rendering cruelty and is no expression of divine virtue (justice and holiness). Notably, the penal suffering of the sinner does nothing at all to bring human evil to an end -- there is no destruction of evil thereby, but only an enhancing of its horrible power. :cry:

God does not punish except to amend and does not follow a man-made "lex talionis." Thus, the whole "Good News" of Protestant Christianity is nothing but a type of paranoia about what God might see fit to do to you. A divine penalty for sin is about as real a threat to your eternal happiness as the "Mind Thetans" that Scientologists are yammering about. The only difference is that the Bible has more credibility (for some odd reason) than L. Ron Hubbard's book on Dianetics. 8)
 
itchy

itchy

Active member
racheH said:
So the miracles of the people in the story meant nothing, because if they had had the faith that God is interested in they would have done His will. Faith that there is a powerful God is not the same as faith in God. God is good, not just powerful. If we believe nothing else we must believe in that goodness. Maybe because the power and everything else comes from that goodness. That's my interpretation...
Click to expand...
yeah I reckon you’re right! Plus cheers about the sparrow, that’s settled a few of my concerns for some reason!

Plus with the faith VS works debate, the way I’ve always seen it is that most religions require certain works for you to earn god’s love or approval or pardon or whatever, whereas the bible teaches that it’s the other way around…God already loves us and approves of us and has sent his son to die for our sins and because of this I actually want to do what god asks of me….because he loved me first, not to try and earn his love. The idea that you have to earn your way in to heaven terrifies me so much cause what if I bodge it? Some people just aren’t strong enough to do certain things. Whereas when it’s the other way round, I feel so peaceful and joyful and relaxed that I love to do the things god asks, and I even feel much stronger to do the hard things too. It’s the difference between being motivated by love or fear. All we have to do is believe. That’s why requirements to be baptised and to repent don’t sit comfortably with me, cause surely they’re just more works that I could potentially bodge through my own fear or confusion and end up in hell. But I dunno…

…anyway, that was a really interesting discussion. If you ever have any other interesting theological questions you’d like to explore feel free to email me cause I love talking about this kind of thing! [[email protected]]

p.s. way to go for beating your social phobia. It gives a lot of hope to others.
 
jauggy

jauggy

Well-known member
I am an atheist so i don't know whether i should participate in this debate, however i was christian and was brought up as one, and so i know about it. I don't believe in hell because you'd have to be extremely cruel to create something imperfect then punish it for being imperfect. Why not create a robot or something that was perfect? And i also i believe that if there is such thing as hell where people suffer, i don't believe that anyone should be subject to it. Many Christians bring up the notion that we are created with free will. But this is negated by the concept of hell. If we have free will we should not face punishment for choosing a certain action. It's like if someone put a gun to your head and asked for your wallet you don't really have free will.
 
blubs

blubs

Well-known member
worrydoll said:
hell is living in suburbia..its the monotany that will make you wish it was over...but its never over...nothing ever happens..you know it won't....but you stay anyway..because...its safe..and clean....but you hate yourself for it...and dream of how you might escape and all the fuct up things you would do...but...it keeps you there...even when its sucking the life out of you...and it makes you more warped and twisted than you would ever be living in the real world...it makes you hope theres a madman on the loose and that he might just notice your doors not locked....but .....everydays the same in suburbia...its eternal suffering...ultimate degredation of the spirit.....[/quote

Then this would make B&Q the very bowels of hell.
I always thought so.
Click to expand...
 
Y

young

Well-known member
LittleMissScareAll said:
I know for a fact that hell DOES exist...because I'm in hell right now. :evil: :twisted:
Kentucky=hell
This world=hell
Click to expand...

this is the bad joke police. please pull your car over...
 
Zack

Zack

Member
I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard hell was translated wrong. The word for hell was the place they took dead bodies outside of the city and burned them to stop disease, etc. Either way I hate how churchs use hell to get people to believe, do this or you go to hell. It shouldn't be like that. Might as well point a gun at people and tell them to believe or I shoot
 
renegade

renegade

Well-known member
Sorry to jump in like this, but I just wanted to tell you i'm now in heaven, yeah, i mean in love. :D

So i've been through heel and heaven........I prefer heaven :lol:
 
Zipper

Zipper

Well-known member
squeakyfish said:
when was the idea of hell 'invented' as in did the jewish faith ever mention it?
Click to expand...
I think it is likely that humans from the very beginning of the time they could cogitate probably had a phobia that there were malevalent spirits that could hurt them.

The strength of the Abrahamic religions is that the threat has been shifted from malevalent spirits to God and the threat has been renamed "penalty for sin" and is described as a divine virtue, the so-called "Justice" of God. It is said that God has created right and wrong for humans to observe, and that if we don't properly observe them, then there are penalties for infraction of the divine law.

Whether the penalty is death, hell, Gehenna, or anything else, it is basically the same idea -- "lex talionas," divine retaliation. This idea is a mental disorder, a product of diseased minds. While there is a right, and a wrong, a good and a bad -- the right is asserted not by penalizing but by teaching. There is no destruction of evil by rendering penalties for sin, but only an enhancing of its horrible power.

The Bible is the real source of this poisonous doctrine of divine penalties for sin -- it is the real persecutor. The Bible burned heretics, built dungeons, founded the Inquisition, and trampled upon all the liberties of men. How long, O how long will mankind worship a book? How long will they grovel in the dust before the ignorant legends of the barbaric past? How long, O how long will they pursue phantoms in a darkness deeper than death?
 
4myself

4myself

Well-known member
Zipper, you have obviously had some very bad experiences with Christians, that is very sad.

My interpretation of the Bible regarding hell is that it has been created as punishment for satan and his followers. Jesus himself said while he was on the earth that "You are either for me or against me" so if you are not following Jesus, then by default you are following satan and will have to share in the punishment, ie hell, that has been set aside for him.

I believe that most religions are basically good religions, it is only when people take them to an extreme that we start getting problems or when one group decides that they cant tolerate anyone else believing something different and becomes determined to stamp out people that believe differently to them. You have mentioned a lot of bad things that extremist Christians have done over the centuries, bit if you are honest to history you have to admit that it is not just Christians who are responsible for commoitting atrocities in the name of their God/s. Take a look at whats happening with extremist Muslims now for example.
Christians have also been responsible for doing a lot of good works in the world, please dont overlook that.

Thanks for reading :)
 
Zipper

Zipper

Well-known member
4myself said:
Zipper, you have obviously had some very bad experiences with Christians, that is very sad.

My interpretation of the Bible regarding hell is that it has been created as punishment for satan and his followers. Jesus himself said while he was on the earth that "You are either for me or against me" so if you are not following Jesus, then by default you are following satan and will have to share in the punishment, ie hell, that has been set aside for him.
:)
Click to expand...
Actually, I've always had very good interactions with Christians. My problem is not so much with the behavior of Christians, but the doctrines of Christianity.

You say that God will punish certain beings in hell, and I do not see what value it could be to Him for him to punish them if the punishment is not for the sake of amendment. If there is no value to him, then it must be a senseless punishment. If there is value to him -- even worse -- then we would need to admit that he is a cruel being (as we know the word "cruel" to mean).

I believe that the Christian theories about God's justice as penalty for sin are dishonoring to God and unworthy of man's belief.

Eastern Christianity agrees with me:

What is the Western dogma of salvation? Did not God kill God in order to satisfy His "justice"? What is salvation for Western theology? Is it not salvation from the wrath of God? Do you see, then, that Western theology teaches that our real danger and our real enemy is our Creator and God? Salvation, for Westerners, is to be saved from the hands of God! How can one love such a God? How can we have faith in someone we detest? Faith in its deeper essence is a product of love, therefore, it would be our desire that one who threatens us not even exist, especially when this threat is eternal. This juridical conception of God, this completely distorted interpretation of God's justice, was nothing else than the projection of human passions on theology.
The River of Fire [/url]
 
Y

young

Well-known member
Zack said:
I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard hell was translated wrong. The word for hell was the place they took dead bodies outside of the city and burned them to stop disease, etc. Either way I hate how churchs use hell to get people to believe, do this or you go to hell. It shouldn't be like that. Might as well point a gun at people and tell them to believe or I shoot
Click to expand...

yes... but if there was no consequence for what you did. the world would fall into total and complete turmoil. there would be no reprucussions for what you did. and evil wouldn't exist. cause there would be no way to differentiate.

is there a hell? well anything is possible. Most people lose faith, when they have something bad happen in their life.
 
Bexi

Bexi

Well-known member
Hell is something you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. Hell is having depression
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top