Iontoforesis devices

Hyper-Hydro

Hyper-Hydro

Well-known member
Iontophoresis machines:


What are they, is it some kind of magic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iontophoresis

A iontophoresis machine is really just based on a very simple variable power supply with an amperemetre, similar to the type that might supply your kid´s toy train or e.g. power some small electric motor that can run at various speeds. There´s nothing magical about it, and in reality they all function from the same basic design with a few variations. Originally, Iontophoresis was designed to propel molecules of misc. drugs through the skin, and apparently it was discovered by chance that ions seem to have an inhibiting effect on sweat glands.
All the existing iontophoresis machines available online seem to originate in a construction like the Fischer MD 1a. Probably the other makers bought one and realised there is nothing to making one, since the design is so simple that it´s probably not possible to patent it anylonger. The design of the baths vary, and there are two mains powered options (Fischer, Idromed4) the rest as far as I know are battery powered, some using LR6 (AA) and others e.g. 9v batteries. The reason for the battery designs being (according to Finni Syndergaard) that it´s not easy to get govt. approval for devices designed to electrocute people by a mains outlet. Slightly higher voltages would be considered torture by Geneva conventions, so he´s probably right about that point. It appears the battery design gets around some restrictions which demand costly approval procedures. Other sides of the battery vs mains power supply haven´t become clear to me yet, but some issues seem to be relevant, like the human body as a resistor being a variable.

Battery Operation vs mains.

In theory there´s no difference in efficiency of the treatment if the battery used in battery powered iontoforesis devices have an overhead of capacity, however very few if any batteries can deliver power at any lenght of time with a completely horisontal discharge curve. I don´t have any experience with battery operated units, but I´m thinking that prolonged treatments e.g. up to 30 minutes with simultaneous treatment of both hands and feet (considerably higher resistance), might wear out some types of batteries faster than others.

What do I get with mains operation which I don´t get with battery operated devices:

1) A completely horisontal discharge curve = totally uniform current for any lenght of treatment = Peace of mind that your device is never underpowered.


What do I get with battery operation which I don´t get with mains:

1) Total mobility. You can take the device with you to the top of Mount Everest and have your therapy there.

2) Continuous extra expenses for batteries as they wear out.

3) Hassle with having to keep extra batteries ready in case they wear out during therapy.

4) Functional problems owing to the physical nature of batteries, e.g. the chemicals leaking or evaporating out into the device and thereby causing corrosion, which can influate conductivity negatively.


Why does iontophoresis work?

Nobody really seems to know. The miscellaneous manufacturers all claim to refer to scientific studies, but never present them.

Who makes (sell) them, and what are the good and bad points about the different types of machines in trade?
I need your input for this section members, I can only speak about my experiences with Idromed 4

Drionic (American) http://www.drionic.com http://www.neurotronics.com.au/products/drionic.htm

info on drionic modification and how to use it

http://www.geocities.com/drionicmods/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/drionicmods/nobatteries.html

Fischer (American) Fischer MD 1a http://www.rafischer.com/prod05.htm

I2M (French) (misc. models) http://www.i2m-labs.com/p_gb/index.htm
http://www.ajgruppen.no/
http://www.stdpharm.co.uk/iontophoresis/idrostar-home.html

Finni Syndergaard (Danish) Dermatol http://home0.inet.tele.dk/finnis/

Dr. Hönle Medizintechnik (German) Idromed4 GS and PS

http://www.drhoenle.de/index.php?id=4
http://www.idromed.de/pdf/hoenle_pdfidromed.pdf
http://www.dermahealthcare.no/Iontophorese.htm
http://www.iontophoresis-device.com/
English manual: http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/Idromed4_manual_eng.pdf

Hidrex (German) http://www.hidrex.de/englisch/index.htm

Drysure (Australian) http://www.wayne-electronics.com.au/

Jonomed (Italian) http://www.bielsan.com/tit/itbijondr.htm

Why do they cost so much?

Beats the hell out of me! Someone is cashing in big that´s for sure. At the moment I´m not sure precisely who that is, but I´m damn well going to find out! Rest assured of that. I´m going to try to make an assessment of what the basic components might cost, and then figure out what it costs to get something like that approved for human health use by European standards.
 
Hyper-Hydro

Hyper-Hydro

Well-known member
Why does it work?

So Why is it that iontoforesis has an inhibiting effect on sweat? Personally, I don´t think that the ions “clogging” up the sweat glands story seems very plausible. From a hydraulic point of view that doesn´t make sense. Otherwise my feet would be swelling like a lake behind a dam. My feet rather feel relieved after iontoforesis. What´s more likely is that the sensory system has sensors in the skin, which are designed to help regulate the internal temperature in the limbs, by evaluating external temperature in conjunction with internal temperature, and projecting eventual damage to the internal system as a product of that function . I prefer to think that my sensory system is working allright, so the reason my feet-skin-sensors is (possibly) reporting = hot, is that the temperature in that particular limb is probably too high, and the “central cpu” reacts by opening the sweat glands to regulate the limb temperature by loosing h2O molecules.

Evidently the sweating tends to cease at least for a time after an iontoforesis treatment (I´m only at my 8´th so far) so the excessive sweating is at least to a part due to functions of the skin-combo rather than originating in the endocrine- or central nervous system.

Maybe the external temperature sensors in the limbs of an HH victim is out of calibration for some reason, maybe I´m wearing too much clothes, maybe I´m overweight (resulting In too effective insulation of the body), maybe I´m eating/drinking compunds that tends to build up excessive reserves of water in my body, which again the body decides to dump when possible.

By bombarding the skin with ions (iontoforesis) we are probably “deafening” the sensory system´s local skin sensors to external input about temperature (and maybe input about microscopic activity in the skin combo such as e.g. pollen??), and this could be why sweating ceases abruptly for many people. It also explains why iontoforesis is not a permanent “plug” but has to be maintained. Please give me some positive feedback on these thoughts anyone…
 
Hyper-Hydro

Hyper-Hydro

Well-known member
Comparing Idromed 4 with Fischer MD 1 A from the point of view of a danish customer:

You get exactly the same efficiency. Electric current is electric current. Don´t let anybody tell you anything else. I can´t see from the Fischer material whether it will be supplied with 240 volts mains adapter when shipped to Europe, so that could mean I may have to buy a converter which probably will be hard to find with approval for medical use. The Idromed 4 and it´s mains adapter has all european certificates necessary for use in a (european) medical clinic. The Fischer MD 1a was originally designed for clinic use only (in the US), but does it have the certificates required for clinic use in the European Union?? I can´t seem to find any information about that in the Fischer sales info. One serious drawback for the Fischer MD 1a is that they apparently only sell to prescription from dermatologists. Anyone like me, who is weary of incompetent doctors will find that a major deciding factor, but most dermatologists can probably be talked into writing one for a fee... :p

What do I get with the Idromed 4, which I don´t get with the Fischer MD 1 a?

1) Portable design: All of the equipment fits in a protective case, which can be divided into two halves to serve as the therapy baths. Same design as the Idrostar. (Dr Hönle probably stole this idea from I2M, because the Idromed 3 was a design more like the Fischer MD 1a. My guess is, that Dr Hönle probably began with buying a Fischer MD 1 a, took it apart and copied it, much like a lot of early japanese designs of misc. hardware began in the early 30´ies, 40´ies and 50´ies by copying european and american designs) I like the portable design a lot, since I will be travelling for months abroad with the equipment, and one of the reasons I rejected the danish Dermatol (Finni Syndergaard) design, is precisely that the manufacturer does not provide a transport case, and the therapy baths are highly unpractical for transport.

2) Larger therapy baths: The Fischer MD 1 a comes with 9 x 12 inch trays = app. 22 x 30, while the Idromed 4 has 10 x 14 inch = 26 x 39 cm

Now this would be one of the deciding factors for me: It´s a competitive variable not even mentioned in any of the product descriptions of any iontophoresis device. I didn´t realize how great an advantage I would gain by simultaneous treatment of hands and feet before I read the Idromed 4 manual. Dr Hönle doesn´t even mention this feature on their web site ( a lot of members in this forum has commented that Dr Hönle doesn´t have very much info (in english) about the Idromed 4, but even in german they don´t describe simultaneous theraphy of hands and feet very well in either site or pdf sales material) With the Fischer MD 1 a, I would be forced to treat hands and feet separately, thereby doubling the total time I have to "waste" in therapy. My foot is app 25 cm long, and around 11 cm at the widest, which means I would barely be able to squeeze both feet into one Fischer tray in a rather uncomfortable way, while they fit amply in one Idromed 4 therapy bath. Ofcourse one could buy larger trays for the Fischer MD 1a and that probably wouldn´t be very expensive.

3) FOOT/TABLE switch: This is entirely Dr Hönle´s own idea. I haven´t seen any of the others with this feature, which is ingenious. You could modify the Fischer MD 1 a with a switch between the mains converter and the MD 1a, and achieve the same advantages: It allows for treatment of hands and feet completely solo, without anyone to assist you. With the Fischer MD 1 a you will get zapped if you lift one hand from one of the baths to turn the device off. With the Idromed 4 you simply cut the power with the foot/table switch. You still have remember to return the mA dial back to zero before the next therapy though, or you will get zapped anyway next time you hit the swith again :p, so with both of these machines you need a helper to turn up the mAmps atleast for hands treatment alone (ie one hand i each bath) unless you have very articulate feet so you can turn the dial with your toes Very Happy. With the Idromed 4 you can place both feet in one bath and e.g. your left hand in the other bath, thereby closing the circuit to avoid getting zapped, while you gradually turn the mAmps dial up with the right hand untill you reach your comfortable setting, and then place the right hand in the bath with the left hand. There is a slighty higher tension noticeable in both feet and left hand before you join the right hand, so I usually turn up the mAmps untill I feel a slight stinging, which is then relieved when the rght hand comes in.
This simultaneous treatment allows for e.g. answering the phone, switching channels on your tv set, turning a page in your book, or enjoying a sip of your favourite brew during therapy. If you want to do that with the Fischer MD 1a in it´s factory setup, you need a helper.

What do I get with the Fischer MD 1a, which I don´t get with the Idromed 4 ?

1) a tuitional DVD, which I have to pay extra 50 USD for, and is only availble for physicians :p

What´s the price of Fischer MD 1a versus Idromed 4 a?

Fischer MD 1a ships to Denmark for Dkr 3.590,- USD 615,- incl. insurance and shipment, and I bought the Idromed 4 for Dkr 3.528,- USD 604,- including moms (VAT) insurance and shipment. (Does anybody see why I´m talking about cartel-like organization?)
HOWEVER, if the customs officers snap my parcel from the US, they will slam me with the danish moms (VAT) on top of the Fischer price, meaning I most likely will end up paying Dkr 4.569,- USD 782,77 INCL VAT for the Fischer unit. Actually customs may even add a slight import duty on the goods also. The european union does that, because the Bush administration has imposed import duties on european steel export to the US :p
 
Hyper-Hydro

Hyper-Hydro

Well-known member
So who is making the bucks?

Well the "manufacturer" (A.L.T. Lichttherapie GMBH, Thura Mark 10 - 06780) is probably not actually manufacturing the device, because it doesn´t say "Made in Germany" anywhere on the label, and don´t you know they would write that, if it was? * My guess is that A.L.T. buys this device dirt cheap in China, and then sells it to Dr. Höenle, who then sells it to an internet dealer like Markus Bindner, who THEN sells it to me! Believe me this is not even a long food chain when we´re speaking about retail gadget sales today.

What if HH sufferers worldwide would found a non-profit organization which bought the devices directly at the dirt cheap Chinese manufacturing company, and sold them on to their members at production/development/shipment costs only? Cool

* = The AC/AC converter that comes with the device, is actually made in Germany by FRIWO according to the product information printed on it. According to Markus Bindner this part and the security certificates which German health authorities demand is one of the reasons why the device ends up being so expensive. FRIWO also makes very similar converters for e.g. battery chargers. Those converters cost around Dkr 3-400 app USD 60,- retail in a danish electrical appliance store. The construction design and material (molded plastic) is very similar to the Idromed 4 AC/AC converter apart from the foot/table switch.

I would imagine the Fischer device comes with a similar ac/ac converter for the north american market, and it´s very unlikely that Fischer themselves are producing any of the components of their device either. North american customers who might want to buy the Idromed 4 device has to buy a voltage "step-up" converter which doesn´t really seem very smart. Why have a converter before the converter? Dr Höenle is evidently not very interested in the north american market, since it would be no big problem for FRIWO to make a north american AC/AC converter. Markus Bindner´s home page:
Quote:
(Customers in 110-130 V locations such as the USA and Japan will need to use a "step-up" power transformer to convert 110v to 230v. Available (its cheap) in almost every electronic store.)
Maybe health certificates for the north american market comes in here, as cost factor? Does anyone know anything about the costs/procedures of having a iontoforesis device like Fischer tested and approved for clinic use in the US? I don´t believe north american rules are any tougher than european, probably vice versa, but it works like red tape to protect the local manufacturers.
 
Hyper-Hydro

Hyper-Hydro

Well-known member
It really works!

Iontoforesis really works! I know it, because I was your free guinea-pig, and now after only 7 treatments I can actually feel a vast improvement in my hands/feet HH. It´s not 100 % perfect, but a real advance for me. Chances are it would be the same for you.

I´m only thinking: “why the hell didn´t I get this device 10 years ago?” And the answer is, because our health systems are screwed up and there´s a dead rat smelling in more than one place in the relationships between the dermatologists, medical industries and the “manufacturers” of Ionto-devices as well.

Here I am enjoying my dry feet, working up more energy and feeling that I´m finally beating this sh**, only because of a bit of tap water and a plastic box with electric components worth app. 20 bucks at the most, looking at shere material costs. I will get into detail with that later, when I tear the cabinet open and have an electric mechanic analyze the components one by one. Naturally, the cabinet is glued, so that I can´t take a look without forfeiting my warranty, but no worries, I´ll find a way to get around that. Not that I think it will ever break. It´so simple, I would have to deliberately destroy it, or torch it. When I´m done here, I´m going to present a diagram so you can make your own device, but preferably, I would like sensible manufacturers to come in, and give the people a good solution which makes it possible for people like Markus to deal in this line of business, and for you and I to pay considerably less. Something like 1/3 of the costs seems quite feasible, or maybe even have this treatment for free from your medical insurance.

This is what really annoys me: This low cost solution to so many people´s grief has been kept in the shade for so many years, and why?

The only placable reason I can think of is because dermatologists and the medical industries are making too much money from coaxing desperate people into spending fortunes on useless drugs, and useless paraphernalia like the cotton clothes that is probably more likely to keep you wet than dry. The more I dig into this dirt the more I want to call Michael Moore.

I´ve been looking into iontoforesis for a number of years, but I have been sitting on the fence like so many others, basically because of the costs of the equipment which I don´t get any guarantee will work (except from Markus Bindner?). Now that I know it does work, I´m getting so pissed with the health system.
For a long time, I was wondering why apparently there is no scientific evidence available of the functionality of iontoforesis, but yesterday it struck me, that this is because no such evidence is in existence. Why is that then?
The explanation is that scientific studies are usually carried out with the help of funding from the medical industries. Now if you were a share holder in a major medical industry, how would you feel about your money being invested in research about a treatment that involves tap water and electrical components worth 20 bucks? How much money would you expect to make on such an adventure?

Maybe there IS scientific evidence. Atleast here´s a link with a lot of references which just came to my attention today: http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/inside.asp?AID=903&UID=

The worst part of it is the “ignorance” displayed by dermatologists at least in my country. My own doctor´s ignorance for that sake. The case of my own doctor(s) disappoint me, but is forgiveable, but I don´t think the dermatologists are very ignorant about it. They are calculating business assets. These people go through medical school courtesy my tax bill, and I´m feeling increasing hostility against them as I realize the greed they display. I want to get a handle on them, strip them down and show them for what they are. Please give me input about your dermatologists members. If I can, I will be exposing the ionto-device business as well.
 
Hyper-Hydro

Hyper-Hydro

Well-known member
The effect of metal ions used in the antiperspirants is making me think about the combo of the alloy used for my Idromed 4 into-device. I´ve only used it 9 times now, and it´s showing a decided degradation of particularly the positive pole. When I unpacked the electrodes they had a shiny, galvanized, mirror-metal look to them, but now they have small spots particularly at the end that faces my feet/hands, and the plus poles even have little rust spots in a few places. Clearly, metal ions migrating from the plus pole particularly, and obviously into my body must be the reason why my sweating is decreasing... (actually I´m crispy dry at the moment) If aluminum ions are more effective than "iron" ions or whatever ions my electrodes are made of, then I could possibly improve on my ionto-device, by changing to aluminum electrodes, which would then degrade quite a lot faster I think, because aluminum has a higher conductivity than iron. Actually Finni Syndergaard is using aluminum foil baking trays as combined tray/and electrodes in his ionto-device, the Dermatol. I thought this made his setup look a bit cheesy, but if the metal ions are the active part of iontoforesis rather than the tap water, it would seem that Dermatol has an advantage over other ionto-devices in that respect. Now aluminum ions e.g. in an aluminum salt are rather toxic in case I should eat decide to eat them, so how are the metal ions then affecting my body in a longer perspective while using ioto-devices? Do the metal ions travel all the way through my body to the other pole? This would seem quite likely since the human body is app. 80 % water, but what happens to the ions that are trapped in my body when I cut the power at the end of the treatment? What goes on with the aluminum ions from the anti perspirants which must be permeating the skin of the user?? Actually I´ve noticed that my urine has turned somewhat darker during the days I have been using the device, but I don´t know if this is a side-effect of the treatment or not, because I´m also having a slight cold. Has anyone noticed this as a side-effect to frequent use of either aluminum salt anti perspirants or ionto-devices Question
 
salli

salli

Member
hi romax, i saw you search a iontophoresis machine for head & facial sweating
for the idromed 5 pc a a face mask is available too Excessive forehead / face sweating

hope this is what you tried to find...
 
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