I can't get my head around something

[charlieHungerford]

I am hoping for some honest true opinions on this problem I am currently working out.

I hope people will understand this problem and not think 'Charlie is shallow or vain', I am not like that whatsoever.

Basically I am working on overcoming all my insecurities that I have been so self conscious about. Self consciousness triggers anxiety to protect ourselves from getting hurt.

I suffered years of put downs, insults, name calling, ridicule during my teenage years which is what made me so self conscious, lose all self esteem, made me anxious around people, etc, etc.
I am now sorting all this out, changing deep rooted negative beliefs.

What I really would like help with is my beliefs about what people think of people who have a big nose.
My nose is a bit bigger than ideal, not hugely bigger but noticable that my nose is bigger than ideal.
I never was self conscious or thought anything was wrong with my nose but I suffered a lot of put downs, ridicule, name calling, butt of jokes, etc. I had comments like 'I'd be ok if I didn't have a big nose' and someone said they couldn't find someone attractive who has a dodgy nose. I had a woman at work making jokes about my nose to the whole office of 35 people, I felt like I was a freak at a circus.

I have accepted my nose, which is a very important, I know my nose makes no real difference to my appearance, I know my nose is bigger than ideal, this is who I am. BUT, what I cannot get my head around is that I have these deep rooted beliefs that if anyone sees my nose they will automatically think negative things of me, will judge me critically, will judge me as ugly as ****, will think I am inadequate, inferior, unworthy, a freak, etc.
I honestly do have these beliefs that if anyone sees my nose then that is it, no one could ever think I am good enough.

The thing is I know people who have big noses and think nothing bad of their nose at all, there is a girl at work who has a big nose and I think she is so attractive looking. I have a friend at work who has a big nose and loads of women fancy him.

BUT, I just cannot seem to believe that having a big nose (not huge but noticable for being bigger than ideal) doesn't matter, because why did I have to suffer so many put downs and people saying I was not good enough simply because of my nose, why did I have to feel like a freak at a circus when someone was making jokes about my nose? I felt so ugly and such a freak.

My question is should I be self conscious about my nose being bigger than ideal. Please do not suggest surgery, this is who I am and I can find others who have big noses as being good enough and desirable, I am simply trying to get my head around what people really think? Do you think bad of people who have big noses or think they are ugly and not good enough? Are my beliefs wrong? I know they are based on past experience of hurtful comments. What is the reality?

I will be so grateful for any replies, I seriously want to overcome this self consciousness once and for all.

 

[Chilling__Echo]

Hey charlieHungerford,

I don't think people would make a huge deal out of your nose upon first meeting. I've yet to find too many people on this PLANET with perfect faces, much less perfect bodies. I don't think people dwell on your looks upon first meeting.

also, remember that when you were younger, if all they had to rag on you about was your nose, then you're in pretty good shape usually the critical ones are the ones that are the most insecure themselves and they could have just been taking that out on you.

If someone is shallow enough to say they won't date you because of your nose, (know what i'm going to say?) then you don't want them anyway! plus, you can't assume you know what other people are thinking (all a part of SA too).

as far as boosting confidence... to boost mine in college, i just looked at everyone else and tried to believe that i was just as good as they were, and if anything, they should be afraid of ME, as i was afraid of them. and i'm sure some were as they were pretty unaware of my fear.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Charlie,

I know that I keep mentioning the same thing to you -yet, I can't help but have my beliefs.

I've been reading a book called: "Buddhism: Plain and Simple" by Steve Hagen. It is just an excellent book. ...I sometimes frequent philsophy forums and there I've found some really complicated explanations on the mind; but this book explains many of the same concepts in such a simple way. ...I still am not fully grasping these, but...

I asked a question at the philosophy forum as to why it is that CBT didn't help me and Mindfulness does. I got interesting replies (from philosophy students) -one in particular was very interesting. It talked about ideas (with bigger words) that Steve Hagen's book (above) talks about.

Basically, CBT, like other more Western kinds of thinking, is based upon the person attempting to change their beliefs. As well as the emphasis being put upon 'belief', there is also a subtle aspect of resisting one's current beliefs (thoughts and feelings). ...Now, psychologists in general are saying that CBT works well enough for problems which have not been around as long -strictly speaking though I have read this about depression and not anxiety- but for cases in which the emotional conflict is a bit more intense, Mindfulness is considered necessary. and I also read one professional psychiatrists opinion that CBT made her patient's anxiety worse.

Then I am reading about Buddhism (mostly in Steve Hagen's book) and Buddhism does not require us to believe anything. Also, unlike Western kkinds of thinking, Buddhism is less inclined to look outside the self for salvation and strength. Unlike CBT, no beliefs need to be accepted -there is nothing outside of the self to obtain with Buddhism and Buddhism is all about awareness and seeing rather than believing in anything.

Western thought is said to look 'out there' for salvation; whilst Buddhism, interestingly is called "Situational", with its emphasis on 'now' and 'here' (as with Mindfulness ...and of course, the journey to 'now' and 'here' = the journey to 'nowhere' ) It is all based upon being fully present and fully alive just as you are now -this is to be the happiest one can be. It also means that a person is not striving to be other than who they are -and this total self acceptance is the exact opposite of anxiety, which is really just our struggle to not be who we are.

You can know that this is true because our efforts to get away from the experience of our disordered anxiety is what makes us stuck in this experience. And this feeling of aversion is accompanied by subtly wrong thinking -ie: that we require to be something other than ourselves in order to be socially acceptable and/or worthy. ...Just like, some people have made the observation that we social phobics do not guage what we should and should not -or can and cannot- change about ourselves; and that this is the source of all our sufferring.

Add to this, something interesting I have read in a meditation book:- Analytical types of meditation, which involves thinking and analysing a problem, are often used in combination with Stabilising meditation, of which Mindfulness is one. And I read that Analytical meditation/thinking can help us understand a problem but that Stabilising Meditation enables us to emotionally accept our answer. And CBT is somewhat an analytical approach, just as it askes us to think about our 'wrong' thoughts and replace these with what are 'right' thoughts etc...

...and this raises a pretty interesting idea: maybe Mindfulness enables people to emotionally accept their problem as well as the solution they have worked out. And that CBT alone can be like us going over our problem telling ourselves: Why don't you just get it? -sort of trying to use our logic, rational mind to control our irrational emotions. But my guess is that this is actually an irrational thing to do -by which I mean, it is like repeating our problem of resisting and fearing and not accepting our strong emotions. This just continues them.

IT is very subtle. ANd I don't fully get it all. But I am getting this intuition and from what I have been reading -I think I am on the right track with it all.

BUt nothing, however, is more convincing than my own experience. I've been using MIndfulness -meditation, the application of this method for dealing with stressful situations, and just the whole attitude and mindset of Mindfulness it self- for over two months now. ...My anxiety has dropped so much. I don't even ask my self questions of whether my feelings or thoughts are rational or not -or analyse what is true or what means something. Mindfulness has done this for me -or, rather, it has allowed me to do this.

So, my suggestion is that you read some books on Buddhism and question the ideas of it yourself. And of course, why not try Mindfulness? Give it a try. There is no harm in testing a different solution. You can still theorise as much as you want. -I mean, I am trying Mindfulness and I am working my way back to understanding HOW it works. For now I am just continuing to use something that my experience frankly tells me is genuinely working. Also, at www.mindfulrecovery.com, a more thorough application of the Buddhist technique has been adapted for anxiety specifically -and it is for free, unlike MCBT from a psychiatrist for example (which may also be hard to find someone who does this...)

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Charlie wrote....

"My question is should I be self conscious about my nose being bigger than ideal. ......Are my beliefs wrong? I know they are based on past experience of hurtful comments. What is the reality?"

...

Why be self-conscious about being self-conscious about your nose being bigger than ideal-? If you are self-conscious about your nose, then this is how you feel. 'Wrong' and 'right' feelings don't matter because feelings are feelings. BUt if you want to put your feelings into perspective to discover what is 'right' as applies to your situation, then you'd need to accept all your feelings -your self-conscious feelings about your nose and your self-conscious feelings about being self-conscious about your nose. ....which by the way, although the first seems 'woosy' (because you are so sensitive about your appearance) whilst the second seems 'stronger' (because it is that voice that judges and tries to control our sensitivity, our nervousness and when magnified as disordered anxiety) but in reality, both are being 'self-conscious'. -The second is the disguised version of the first.

-Why do you question being self-conscious and sensitive about your nose. This is how you feel. and What is wrong and what is right are things that we all make-up as we go along.

 

[appletree]

hello, your post was of particular interest to me and i felt like i could relate to it 100 percent.
i have hyperhidrosis so that means i am sweating profusely pretty much all of the time, i have to wash and dry my hands continually to keep them dry so everything you say about being self conscious about something i can relate to fully, while you might say sweating a lot isn't immedietly obvious to other people, the effort involved in making sure i don't touch anybody with my hands is ruining my life.
just thought i would say that i know what it's like to be very self concious over something.
i hope you are getting on okay and not letting things get you down too much.
my friend has a relativly large nose and i quite honestly have never even thought about it before i only thought about it after reading your post so ya know decent people don't care about stuff like that.
take care-mark

 

[charlieHungerford]

Hey charlieHungerford,

I don't think people would make a huge deal out of your nose upon first meeting. I've yet to find too many people on this PLANET with perfect faces, much less perfect bodies. I don't think people dwell on your looks upon first meeting.

also, remember that when you were younger, if all they had to rag on you about was your nose, then you're in pretty good shape usually the critical ones are the ones that are the most insecure themselves and they could have just been taking that out on you.

If someone is shallow enough to say they won't date you because of your nose, (know what i'm going to say?) then you don't want them anyway! plus, you can't assume you know what other people are thinking (all a part of SA too).

as far as boosting confidence... to boost mine in college, i just looked at everyone else and tried to believe that i was just as good as they were, and if anything, they should be afraid of ME, as i was afraid of them. and i'm sure some were as they were pretty unaware of my fear.

Thanks for replying, I really appreciate that you take time to give
your
opinion to my problem.

I agree with everything you say, we all have flaws, no one is perfect,
I mean at work where I am now I see people who almost all have some
sort of 'flaws' - i.e. things that maybe one could feel is not ideal about themselves - i.e. bald people, bad teeth, overweight/underweight, bad skin, big noses, big ears, short, plain, scruffy, etc.

I don't even notice flaws in people, nevermind think they are
inadequate or unworthy, etc. But then I find the people I think are
attractive and desirable are people who I really like as a person - personality - someone you click with and really enjoy someone's company and can chat none stop and find someone amazing. Looks
don't matter much to me - I don't think 'People have to look a certain way otherwise I can never be attracted to them'. But then I see others who seem to be so shallow and looks orientated, which is why I believe people are so critical of flaws in my appearance.

But like I say, because when people have seen my nose in the past they
were critical, ridiculed me, insulted me, told me I am not good enough
because of my nose, etc - I am naturally self conscious - protecting
myself by hiding my flaw, avoiding situations where people may see this
flaw, being aware of who can see - to protect myself from being hurt by
negative comments that hurt so much in the past and because I don't
want to be deemed unworthy and inadequate, its awful when you are
overlooked by people and treat as if you are not a human being who can be seen as desirable and good enough.
You know what I mean? Have you ever liked someone lots and you get on
well, but they just are not interested in you in terms of finding you
desirable, but they are interested in a friend for example just because
of how they look. I have experienced that, I did realise afterwards that the girl in question was as shallow a 1cm puddle, and I don't like that in a person.

And you are right, anyone who doesn't like me just because my nose is a
few mm's bigger than ideal, well they are not good enough for me, it is a really narrow minded and braindead outlook. I have always wanted to meet like a soul mate and be best friends and have so many amazing times, I don't want someone simply because they look good. I mean is that all that is sex? Or do you want to meet someone who makes you so happy and treats you amazing?

My problem is that because of past experience I believe that people are so critical of me when they see my nose, I do accept my nose and don't think its that bad or big, but because of the past insults and nasty comments and ridicule, I do believe its a problem for other people, i.e. I believe if anyone sees my nose they will judge me negatively, which in effect is what SA is all about - 'The fear of being judged negatively'. This makes me self conscious and want to hide this 'flaw' and makes me so anxious in situations where I feel people can see the 'flaw' because I believe they will be so critical of me and judge me negatively.
I don't care if my nose is big, I just need to understand and believe that if people see my nose and think its big that it doesn't matter and they are not thinking 'My god, Charlie is ugly, he has a big nose, he is not good enough!', I can handle 'Charlie has a big nose, but so what, it doesn't mean he is ugly or not good enough, who cares?'. But when you have been told the negative in the past over a prolonged period of time, you believe that is the reality. But obviously it is not reality because like I say its based purely on negative comments - and the people who said such comments were really pathetic people and I don't care less if someone has a big nose or has big ears or is tall or short is not the perfect weight, etc, etc, etc. And like I say I think a bigger than ideal nose gives people character and of course a person is not just a nose. So I know my believes are exaggerated and biased and negative, they need putting back into reality. They simply need dragging back to a fair and accurate way of thinking, so I am not letting this ruin my self esteem and feeling that people see me as an ugly freak.

Thanks for your comments, and you are right I need to think of myself as good as I seem to think everyone else is, I treat everyone else as good enough and worthy, its only on myself I feel I am not good enough, BUT that is only because of what I have learnt from past bad negative experiences. Because if I had never received any negative comments in my life about my nose, I would not think this negative self conscious way about myself, believing not only am I not good enough, but I am in danger of being hurt by negative comments, ridicule, put downs, etc. Self consciousness is very very bad! But its all learnt! I have unlearnt other self consciousness - i.e. a speech impediment and my weight - I used to be very skinny and now although I don't have the perfect body I am not self conscious about my weight and its fantastic to no longer be self conscious about such things, it gives me so much confidence.
I will overcome this problem with my nose, but like I say I just wanted to hear what people really think. Thank you!

 

[charlieHungerford]

Charlie wrote....

"My question is should I be self conscious about my nose being bigger than ideal. ......Are my beliefs wrong? I know they are based on past experience of hurtful comments. What is the reality?"

...

Why be self-conscious about being self-conscious about your nose being bigger than ideal-? If you are self-conscious about your nose, then this is how you feel. 'Wrong' and 'right' feelings don't matter because feelings are feelings. BUt if you want to put your feelings into perspective to discover what is 'right' as applies to your situation, then you'd need to accept all your feelings -your self-conscious feelings about your nose and your self-conscious feelings about being self-conscious about your nose. ....which by the way, although the first seems 'woosy' (because you are so sensitive about your appearance) whilst the second seems 'stronger' (because it is that voice that judges and tries to control our sensitivity, our nervousness and when magnified as disordered anxiety) but in reality, both are being 'self-conscious'. -The second is the disguised version of the first.

-Why do you question being self-conscious and sensitive about your nose. This is how you feel. and What is wrong and what is right are things that we all make-up as we go along.

Oh, this is hard for me to say because I know you were being nice and helpful and I really really appreciate you spending time writing to me and how nice you are in trying to help, but I just cannot relate or believe into this, I think its so wrong.
At the end of the day, I don't need to be self conscious about my nose - its serves no purpose to be self conscious about this, but I am because of beliefs. The self consciousness is there to protect me from getting hurt. Self consciousness is all down to beliefs and understanding - i.e. if someone believes a part of them whether its part of their appearance or personality or intelligence or voice, etc, etc - is not good enough - they will be self conscious and scared of people seeing this 'flaw' because they believe if people see the flaw they will be hurt by people thinking horrible things of them, being deemed inferior and inadequate, deemed as ugly, or even that they will be hurt by ridicule, laughed at, etc. But its all based on flawed beliefs, negative, exaggerated and biased ways of thinking. If you have a big nose do you have to be self conscious and you are deemed as ugly? The reality is no, so this thinking is destructive and wrong.
In my opinion what you are saying is seriously flawed, because take my nose for example, I am self conscious and worry what people think of my nose - because I believe people will judge me negatively, will be critical of me, laugh at me, deem me as unworthy, ugly, etc, etc, and the root of these problems are my beliefs - beliefs based on ridicule by people I hated as a teenager and a few other horrible people. What you are saying is work on the anxiety and self consciousness - which is not the root cause, understand that the anxiety and self consciousness is real, don't bother treating the root cause of the problems, try and live with the anxiety and self consciousness. Its wrong. The anxiety and self consciousness is rational and real, the beliefs are irrational - based on flawed information.
Do you know what you are saying? You are saying that keep on believing you are ugly as **** because of your nose, keep on believing that people will judge you negatively and inferior and inadequate, but learn to deal with that feeling. Continue to have no self esteem and feel unworthy compared to people. BUT cope with the anxiety. Its wrong. I am not ugly, people probably don't think anything bad of me for my nose just like I don't, but because I experienced these bad experiences and hurtful comments, I do believe that I am in danger of more of that and those people who said I am not good enough and not desirable because of my nose - I believe that is what people really think, buts its wrong. These beliefs are wrong hence why they need changing.
Anxiety and self conscious are always always always always RATIONAL. Its the beliefs that cause anxiety and self consciousness that are always always always always IRRATIONAL - based on flawed, negative, exaggerated, negative beliefs.

I am sorry I probably sound so mean there, you are such a nice person and always so helpful, but I just disagree with your approach totally.

 

[phoenix1]

Charlie,

The beliefs that you talk about that causes the anxiety and self-consciousness can be rational as well as irrational. I think there is a subtle, but important difference between irrational and rational. An irrational belief is more about believing something is seriously wrong when it really isnt. A rational belief is knowing that its not that serious but focusing on it so much and desiring to change it so much that it becomes just as serious. See the difference?

For me and I would assume Missmuffet as well, we have more problems with rational beliefs in that we know exactly how bad our flaw is and how people truly react, but we choose to focus on it still because we are too sensitive or perfectionist in nature.

When you talk about trying to make the flaw seem more normal and make it out to be believe that people really don’t care about it. To me that’s absolutely meaningless because of how my beliefs are structured rationally. I honestly already know that most people don’t care….but I also know that some care a little and judge a little. Which is realistically true. That tiny bit of judgment is what drives my anxiety wild. I need to be seen as perfect or at least not disliked at all. So you can probably see how making it more rational means nothing to many of my anxieties.

Missmuffet’s approaches to anxiety hits exactly right for me personally. But I don’t think its really about how we suffer differently either. Most people have both irrational and rational beliefs. Typically both techniques are important for most people. I think we are both on different ends of the spectrum with our beliefs though. It is fascinating to see the differences though.

 

[charlieHungerford]

Charlie,

The beliefs that you talk about that causes the anxiety and self-consciousness can be rational as well as irrational. I think there is a subtle, but important difference between irrational and rational. An irrational belief is more about believing something is seriously wrong when it really isnt. A rational belief is knowing that its not that serious but focusing on it so much and desiring to change it so much that it becomes just as serious. See the difference?

For me and I would assume Missmuffet as well, we have more problems with rational beliefs in that we know exactly how bad our flaw is and how people truly react, but we choose to focus on it still because we are too sensitive or perfectionist in nature.

When you talk about trying to make the flaw seem more normal and make it out to be believe that people really don’t care about it. To me that’s absolutely meaningless because of how my beliefs are structured rationally. I honestly already know that most people don’t care….but I also know that some care a little and judge a little. Which is realistically true. That tiny bit of judgment is what drives my anxiety wild. I need to be seen as perfect or at least not disliked at all. So you can probably see how making it more rational means nothing to many of my anxieties.

Missmuffet’s approaches to anxiety hits exactly right for me personally. But I don’t think its really about how we suffer differently either. Most people have both irrational and rational beliefs. Typically both techniques are important for most people. I think we are both on different ends of the spectrum with our beliefs though. It is fascinating to see the differences though.

You are right that beliefs may be rational as well, however for beliefs to cause anxiety means they are very negative biased.

I wrote this post to ask about noses, I don't want this to be another post where we are having to explain how we suffer and the approach, people can make their own mind up which is relevant for themselves.

So phoenix - what is your opinion on noses?

 

[charlieHungerford]

Hiya charlieHungerford, have read your message and thought I would tell you how I feel about your situation, I havent read all of the responses yet so I may just be regurgitating what others have said, please forgive me if I am. I like you have hang ups, my body image is a particular problem and I have on a number of occassions been made to feel inadiquate and feel less of a person by others just because I am not perfect and as you say 'ideal'. I can empathise because after years of hearing things said to you it must be embedded in your head now that people see you and the first thing they focus on is your nose, which most probably isnt the case because im sure you are a nice person with many wonderful attributes. I never meet people for the first time and judge them on their appearance, appearances can be decieving and I have learnt that its whats on the inside that really counts. The thing I really want to say more than anything is the people that say these bad things to you or have hurt you in the past are not important, they are mearly small mided individuals that have no awareness of others, they arent going to get far in life if they are so small minded and unfair. They have lost out on getting to know the real you! I am no good at getting my point across to be honest, what im trying to say is you are a beautiful person and having a hang up about yourself doesnt make you any less of a person, it has probably made you more aware of others and their feelings. I hate my body and would change it right now if i could but i know deep down i am who i am, and people worth knowing will realise that inside im beautiful even if im not on the outside. I hope this didnt sound like a bundle of crap, although i know i didnt explain myself well and havent said anything interesting but i thought you should know, beauty is skin deep and although its a cliche, its true and GOOD people will love you for who you are. Take care, muchos love Hannah

Wow, that is a mega brilliant message. Actually I was asking a friend at work about this, I told him about my nose which was hard to do after 15 years of believing I am some sort of ugly freak. We are good friends and he wouldn't just tell me what I want to hear and he said that it doesn't matter, if anyone thinks you are not good enough simply because of your nose then they don't deserve any of your thought, you have to put yourself first and worry about what you want, not worry about others. He suggested I look at my nose differently - i.e. instead of being so insecure and thinking so negatively, instead try and see it light heartedly, to be able to laugh at yourself, show other people that it doesn't matter and that you accept how you are, because if you cannot accept yourself then how can you expect anyone to accept you.

What you say is fantastic and certainly is what I want to be hearing in order to change my beliefs. You are so right, good people who are worth knowing will not think any less of me! This is so true, something I really need to start thinking about more.

Thank you!

 

[phoenix1]

I didnt start the debate though..I was responding to your post about why you thought missmuffets approach is wrong. But I will leave it at that even though I do think its extremely important to have that debate.

So going back to the subject of noses since it is your thread and you would like to know what people think. I agree with the people here that it really doesnt matter at all. I've never judged someone negatively for their nose. To me, a different looking nose is like adding character or distinction. I think the more visible and more apparent something is like a nose or eyes or hair...the less we actually view as negative. We are more forgiving of those traits because we know they really cant do anything about it...

 

[charlieHungerford]

I didnt start the debate though..I was responding to your post about why you thought missmuffets approach is wrong. But I will leave it at that even though I do think its extremely important to have that debate.

So going back to the subject of noses since it is your thread and you would like to know what people think. I agree with the people here that it really doesnt matter at all. I've never judged someone negatively for their nose. To me, a different looking nose is like adding character or distinction. I think the more visible and more apparent something is like a nose or eyes or hair...the less we actually view as negative. We are more forgiving of those traits because we know they really cant do anything about it...

Thank you, that is so cool! Yeah I know you didn't start the debate of which angle to take sorry, I was just saying I started the post to ask about noses, not to debate which angle to approach overcome anxiety from.

But yeah thanks loads for your comments, it is so good to read that sort of thing, you know that is the sort of thinking I have on other people who may have noses that are noticable, but my beliefs on noses are just gone, I lost all track of the reality because my beliefs were so extreme and negative, I knew they were not fair because these beliefs are based on people who were so mean to me and ridiculed me to make me feel bad or to get cheap laughs.

Thanks again phoenix, and you are right its wrong for me to say littlemissmuffets comments are wrong, I think its a very individual thing. Taxi for Charlie!

 

[JamesMorgan]

Charlie,

"I am working on overcoming all my insecurities that I have been so self conscious about. Self consciousness triggers anxiety to protect ourselves from getting hurt"

You want to protect yourself from getting hurt by overcoming your insecurities. This is what you are saying.

However, you do not need to 'overcome' your insecurities at all. When we talk of overcoming things we sometimes feel that we have so much work to do. Like meeting certain criteria or trying to replace certain beliefs, not that this is wrong, but essentially you just need to learn acceptance. You dont have to change your appearance to feel better about yourself, you know this.

When you accept, there is no problem, because non-acceptance fundementally means wanting certain things to change. I'm sure you believe that you are accepting your nose, you dont want to change it. But its your beliefs that you now hold about how you are perceived that seems to be the problem.

The solution i feel is that you learn to accept that you will feel like this -because basically your beliefs are unrealistic.
How can you prove this?, you said, "I honestly do have these beliefs that if anyone sees my nose then that is it, no one could ever think I am good enough."

This means that you believe that no one will accept you/think you are good enough because they see your nose. This belief is completely unrealistic. So drop this belief just as you would drop hot coal.
But it's not that easy you may say, i always feel like this. Exactly. Your unrealistic belief is constantly deceiving you and creates another belief saying i will never be able to feel good aound others because of my nose. Viscious circle.

So drop it. Whenever you notice this self conscious feeling realize implicitly that this is DECEPTION, it simply isn't a true reflection, it simply focuses neagtively and exaggerates. Your nose will actually feel bigger. I have watched documentaries about guys who have a medium sized penis but their negative unrealistic belief makes them think that its actually smaller than what it is so they get surgery etc. Its a similar deception. People have bigger noses than you and feel fine about it. They accept the reality.

Another belief that associates with this is you find what other people think about you so important, it seems so focal to your perception of yourself that you would like to change (non-accept) what they think about you. Again this is unrealistic because what others think about you is governed by them not you, you have to accept that unescapable fact, yeah you can mould yourself and manipulate things so that you are seen in another light, yet, this is madness in pure form, we all do it, its a subtle form of self deception.

You will be self conscious about your nose, so what?

Forgive everyone who ever insulted you about your nose, thats past, you cant hold onto that anymore, accept it happened, now live your life.

Finally, if you ask for help, you may disagree with people's advice and so on because this is a big thing for you, only you will be able to see past this deception because your thoughts are perpetuating it. When you accept peoples advice and help you will receive help. When you hold onto certain beliefs so strongly, you may make yourself unhelpable.

So see the truth of your own beliefs and disregard unrealistic views.

I wish you all the best

James

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Charlie wrote....

Do you know what you are saying? You are saying that keep on believing you are ugly as **** because of your nose, keep on believing that people will judge you negatively and inferior and inadequate, but learn to deal with that feeling. Continue to have no self esteem and feel unworthy compared to people. BUT cope with the anxiety. Its wrong. I am not ugly, people probably don't think anything bad of me for my nose just like I don't, but because I experienced these bad experiences and hurtful comments, I do believe that I am in danger of more of that and those people who said I am not good enough and not desirable because of my nose - I believe that is what people really think, buts its wrong. These beliefs are wrong hence why they need changing.


At the end of the day, I don't need to be self conscious about my nose - its serves no purpose to be self conscious about this, but I am because of beliefs. .......If you have a big nose do you have to be self conscious and you are deemed as ugly? The reality is no, so this thinking is destructive and wrong.

"My question is should I be self conscious about my nose being bigger than ideal. ......Are my beliefs wrong? I know they are based on past experience of hurtful comments. What is the reality?"


LMM writes....
Define 'right' (beliefs) and 'wrong' (beliefs). The question I am asking here is: How do we even determine what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'?

Because you say that through acceptance of BOTH your so-called 'right' and 'wrong' feelings/beliefs that you will remain tortured by low confidence. Yet, above you call your self-conscious beliefs 'wrong' -insisting that they are so - then you ask others: "Are my beliefs wrong?...What is reality?"

Buddhism asks that we simply be aware and see and accept the WHole of reality. It is from this acceptance of the whole that we actually allow ourselves to determine what is 'right' (belief) and what is 'wrong' (belief). Through rejecting what we judge as 'wrong', we make it so that we no-longer have freedom of choice and the ability to know what is 'right'.
Just like, for example, all of us intuitively know that people who are pruddhish and repressed about sex are usually unconscious of their own desire -and the more they call this desire 'wrong', the more they perpetuate their struggle with 'desire' -and essentially their 'desire to be rid of desire' is just 'desire' again disguised.
There is a spiritual saying...."You cannot resist that which you grant no reality to."

Also, you are not correct in thinking that through accepting and acknowledging your negative beliefs about your appearance that you would be surrendering to low self-esteem ...and I think that looking at what you write in the paragraphs quoted above will show this. ...Also, one way or another your so-called WRONG beliefs about your self and your nose exist and pronouncing them as WRONG does not make you convinced that they are ...."My question is should I be self conscious about my nose being bigger than ideal. ......Are my beliefs wrong?"

-You will always have the desire for approval from others and this is also the desire to not be rejected ....look how strong this desire is. And there is no sanity in trying to satiate or get rid of the desire for approval and social acceptance -just as there is nothing inherently "WRONG" with being self-conscious or with being vain about one's appearance.

But, on the other hand, accepting all one's feelings -both the vain/insecure feelings about how one appears to others as well as the feelings that such concerns are wrong because they are "vain" and "insecure" ...this would allow you to put all your emotions into balance and from this whole acceptance of your feelings, you could respond freely and appropriately to the situation. -you would be allowing yourself the chance to figure out 'righ' and 'wrong', as you go, and as applies the the particular moment at hand. BEcause 'right' and 'wrong' are relative to each parituclar situation. ...Sometimes it is right to talk back to someone who calls you 'ugly'; other times it is not relevant to do this -it all depends on whether what comments made about your appearance actually are nasty and insulting. Just like there exist 2 kinds of prejudice; for example: one is about outright disrespect for someone based on some difference, and the other is going out of your way to deny a person's difference, because in one's mind such a difference is regarded with the same prejudice. Or, vanity and insecurity are two sides of the same coin.

 

[charlieHungerford]

I can't believe this post is becoming a post on which direction to overcome SA from, I am 100% happy and focused on the way I am doing this, if people disagree then fine, but I just wanted to ask about noses. I don't want to spend hours writing to have to defend my approach yet again.

This is a post about me trying to change my beliefs about my nose, not the approach to take. We suffer so differently and we have agreed in the past that what is right for each other isn't for the other.

LMM writes....
Define 'right' (beliefs) and 'wrong' (beliefs). The question I am asking here is: How do we even determine what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'?

Wrong beliefs = beliefs based on teenagers who ridiculed me at school and college, nasty comments by loud mouths, etc. Are these beliefs fair and accurate and what I should believe all people think? Like I say, most people don't seem to care when I asked the question about noses, I don't care about noses on other people. So these beliefs are really extreme, negative, exaggerated. Is it fair to live life believing everyone is like that?

Also, you are not correct in thinking that through accepting and acknowledging your negative beliefs about your appearance that you would be surrendering to low self-esteem ...and I think that looking at what you write in the paragraphs quoted above will show this. ...Also, one way or another your so-called WRONG beliefs about your self and your nose exist and pronouncing them as WRONG does not make you convinced that they are ...."My question is should I be self conscious about my nose being bigger than ideal. ......Are my beliefs wrong?"

I cannot believe you have quoted this as evidence to prove your point. I asked are my beliefs wrong simply to ask a question of what do others think, not because I am unsure if my beliefs are wrong. I know my beliefs are extremely exaggerated and negative and based on bad experiences, I just wanted to ask the question what do people think of people who's nose is big?

You will always have the desire for approval from others and this is also the desire to not be rejected ....look how strong this desire is. And there is no sanity in trying to satiate or get rid of the desire for approval and social acceptance -just as there is nothing inherently "WRONG" with being self-conscious or with being vain about one's appearance.

You don't know anything about me. I used to be ridiculed for my weight and a speech impediment and have desensitised these and overcome self consciousness and wow the boost in confidence and reduction in anxiety is amazing, they are no longer an issue, I did this by working on the existing negative beliefs, I believed my speech impediment was so bad, I had ridicule, people repeating how I said words and laughing out loud, people just really mean and horrible about this, but I have overcome all of these beliefs and now its not an issue. This is what all this is about with my nose, I am trying to no longer make it an issue. I don't care that my nose is big or not perfect, it is bigger than ideal, but I just want to change my beliefs from believing that people think like these people in the past who always ridiculed me and made me feel like a freak. Its just we all have flaws, no one is perfect, yet I don't think people are not good enough, so why should I live life believing I am not good enough because of one flaw? I do believe that because of what I have been told in the past by people, but these people were immature and horrible!

Its nothing about being vain or being shallow. Oh this is hurting my head. This is about my mind protecting myself from danger of being hurt - hurt by negative comments, ridicule, people deeming me as a freak, unworthy, etc - my mind has recognised that when people see my nose that in the past I have been ridiculed, laughed at, judged as inadequate, inferior, etc - and it hurts like crazy that people think these things. Its not about being vain, I just want to change these beliefs that I am in danger of being hurt, I am basing it on immature teenagers and people who insulted me because they didn't like me as a person in the past so they were horrible towards me. I am trying to change my beliefs from believing everyone thinks like those immature kids to what people really think. Its terrible to believe something so negative like this.

I understand people have a different approach and understanding which is understandable and fine, if you think I am wrong then that is fine, but that is my last comments on this approach, I only wanted to ask about people's views on noses.

 

[signs05]

Sorry for drifting away from the original topic for a minute, but I just have to say that CBT is not a lazy mans game. It takes ALOT of work. If you give up half way and dont stick by it, chances are youre gonna feel more anxiety, which some people say they do. It's not a quick fix, its a seriously scientifically proven method for reducing anxiety.

I don't much like when people try to 'philosophy' the concept of negative and positive thoughts. They try to make the argument that no thoughts are negative nor positive, rather its us who make the decision to label them as positive or negative. To me its pretty simple, a thought that says "I dont look good, If i dont look good I wont have a happy life" is a irrational and negative one and "What I look like is does not affect my happiness or my ability to live a fullfilling and productive life" is more rational and feels damn good, period.

^^^My opinion.

 

[phoenix1]

Hi Charlie,

I think I really know what you mean and I think you are right to be doing what you are doing. I will explain why though so maybe this debate doesn’t always have to occur.

We all talking about minimizing anxiety. There are 3 ways to get rid of anxiety. The 1st way is change that thing that is making you anxious. The 2nd way is to realize you cant change it and accept it…but the 3rd way is to realize you don’t need to either change or accept it because its *not true*.

This is where I think Charliehungerford is making a lot of progress and its real progress because a lot of what he believes is untrue. Sometimes people do this as a means of self-deception to trick themselves into believing it isn’t true so they can avoid acceptance. If that’s the case, then it only works temporarily and it always comes back. But for one reason or another, I really think Charlie does have beliefs that are not true…which is the 3rd type of anxiety that can be reduced just by realizing how wrong the belief is.

Granted that acceptance will always fix anxiety. But its extremely difficult when they are so extreme and based on false premise. Many times the best way to lower that anxiety is to see what is really true and what is false (it has to be an honest appraisal though). Then when you are left with the reality of it and it still bothers you then acceptance is the way to go in my opinion.

I don’t know enough about statistics, but my gut feeling is that its probably more on the rare side to have false beliefs continue for many years. I would say probably most people on this board are in need of good acceptance because its not they have incorrect beliefs, its that they desire change so much that they continually torture themselves over fairly small things.

I am guilty of thinking that it was self-deception and having no desire for acceptance like missmuffet and jamesmorgan. I think we have to realize that sometimes people genuinely have false or irrational beliefs that can be taken away be exposure and analyzing just like what Charlie is doing….but only if it is truly a false or irrational belief.

I think you are a good person Charlie and I’m really happy you are making progress and getting on with your life. You are a great asset to this board as well and I’ve personally learned a lot.

 

[charlieHungerford]

Hi Charlie,

I think I really know what you mean and I think you are right to be doing what you are doing. I will explain why though so maybe this debate doesn’t always have to occur.

We all talking about minimizing anxiety. There are 3 ways to get rid of anxiety. The 1st way is change that thing that is making you anxious. The 2nd way is to realize you cant change it and accept it…but the 3rd way is to realize you don’t need to either change or accept it because its *not true*.

This is where I think Charliehungerford is making a lot of progress and its real progress because a lot of what he believes is untrue. Sometimes people do this as a means of self-deception to trick themselves into believing it isn’t true so they can avoid acceptance. If that’s the case, then it only works temporarily and it always comes back. But for one reason or another, I really think Charlie does have beliefs that are not true…which is the 3rd type of anxiety that can be reduced just by realizing how wrong the belief is.

Granted that acceptance will always fix anxiety. But its extremely difficult when they are so extreme and based on false premise. Many times the best way to lower that anxiety is to see what is really true and what is false (it has to be an honest appraisal though). Then when you are left with the reality of it and it still bothers you then acceptance is the way to go in my opinion.

I don’t know enough about statistics, but my gut feeling is that its probably more on the rare side to have false beliefs continue for many years. I would say probably most people on this board are in need of good acceptance because its not they have incorrect beliefs, its that they desire change so much that they continually torture themselves over fairly small things.

I am guilty of thinking that it was self-deception and having no desire for acceptance like missmuffet and jamesmorgan. I think we have to realize that sometimes people genuinely have false or irrational beliefs that can be taken away be exposure and analyzing just like what Charlie is doing….but only if it is truly a false or irrational belief.

I think you are a good person Charlie and I’m really happy you are making progress and getting on with your life. You are a great asset to this board as well and I’ve personally learned a lot.

Thanks that means a lot, I know I suffer differently from a lot of people on the forum and so my approach to this may be very different and not relevant to others, but I have spent 2 and a half years understanding how I suffer and working on changing things, I know what I am doing is right, the changes in me is amazing, people say it, 3 years ago I could not speak face to face with people or use the telephone, last week I was in a meeting of 8 people and managed to speak and say my point - something 3 years ago I couldn't even dream of, and the telephone I have conquered.

I know a lot of people don't have issues with their appearance on this forum and actually a lot of people feel very good about how they look, which is something I have not had since I was about 12 years old, because back in my school days I was bullied badly - just teased, insulted, picked on, called names for many years and it ruined me. I believed everything people told me and felt like I was an ugly freak, I had no self esteem ever because of all of that. At the same time however I have 100% confidence in my personality, I know I am a likeable person and anyone who gets to know me will like me lots, which reading this forum I know a lot of people don't think. Some people may think well why was I so anxious and self conscious around people - because I felt I was like the elephant man! I seriously felt I was the ugliest man on the planet, I was so ashamed of people seeing me for what they must think, I was scared of people seeing me for ridicule, deeming me as an ugly freak who is not good enough for anything. Having beliefs like that are just unbelievably destructive. Who wants to be seen in public when they feel like that about themselves?

Its just not right how I felt, at school I was bullied badly and ridiculed, called names, had put downs, etc on a daily basis, I just had people always telling me my flaws in my appearance and ridiculing me for them - i.e. I was skinny, my nose was bigger than ideal (not huge but noticable for being big), speech impediment, etc, etc. Every day I would have insults and called names, I used to think no one on this earth gets more insults, name calling, ridicule than me. And the more it happened the more I believed it was justified because it must be the truth. Is it any wonder I protected myself by avoiding being centre of attention or people seeing how skinny I was or seeing my nose - I would use safety behaviours all the time to protect myself from being hurt.

I do believe today I have sorted this out, I have spent 4 hours working on my beliefs and have just gone shopping and was not self conscious whatsoever - or anxious! Wooohooo! I have worked hard in recent weeks accepting my nose. I do accept my nose and know its bigger than ideal so I have a big nose, but I also know it makes like almost no different to my appearance. But I also needed to change beliefs on what others thought of my nose because I believed that everyone thought the same way as what people said years ago.

The way I am now thinking of this is that all the women I have fancied and found desirable, if they had a nose that was noticable for being big, would my opinion of them change? No! Never! I realise big nose does not mean ugly, I mean its just a nose, just like ears, so what? If someone says I have a big nose well ok I do have a big nose, just like I am 6'2 tall, just like I have greeny blue eyes. But if someone can like me lots for who I am if my nose was perfect, then they can also like me lots with my nose being bigger than ideal. But now I will stop this protection of myself, I now am starting to realise these terrible beliefs had just lost the plot. I mean we all have flaws, no one is perfect and that also is key - we know we are not perfect ourselves so do not expect someone else to be perfect. I am not perfect, I don't care to be perfect, I just felt I was a walking freak show and it ruined me. The anxiety and self consciousness was fair and real for how I felt.

Thanks also for people's opinions here on noses and my friend I had a good chat to about this at work who made me realise this is just stupid, and also like people have said, if someone doesn't like me just because of my nose, but would if my nose was perfect, what sort of person is that?

This was never about being vain or wanting to be seen as desirable, it was about me not wanting to be seen as a freak and ridiculed, people judging me as not a normal human being because of my nose.

I have to say that a while ago I never told anyone about my nose, I was so ashamed of my nose I would never have even wrote about it on the internet because I felt people would laugh at me and judge me as an ugly freak, I was so ashamed. I am just about over this now! I am never going to hide again or lack confidence in my appearance just because of my nose again.

At the end of the day I like so much about myself - I am tall and in good shape, I have cool styled hair, I have nice eyes, I am smart and good personal hygiene, I have 100% confidence in my personality and intelligence, was it right to believe I was the walking freak show because my nose is a few mm's bigger than ideal? I even fancy a girl absolutely loads that I go to jelly around her, and she has a big nose. I have a friend who has a big nose who all the women fancy and he even says it out loud that he has a big nose and laughs about it, so why should I continue to think the way I did for 14 years, just because of some really horrible comments that made me so upset?
And I want to add that I couldn't understand my beliefs at times to be true because I have dated some really nice women - who had lovely personality, intelligent and pretty, and also I had an email from a girl at work who works in a different office and who had never spoken to me and she emailed me to say she was my secret admirer. And I even had a girl at work who fancied me and she was saying to people she wanted to marry me and she was nice. I am not saying that to boost my ego or prove any points, but just to demonstrate that this terrible way of thinking I was believing was just totally unfair. I mean why did I believe the absolutely most negative things anyone has ever said, why didn't I believe the absolutely nicest things people have said and who have found me desirable? My beliefs had no positives in them at all, I simply felt I am 1000000000000% not good enough because of my nose.

I am good enough, I am not an ugly freak!

Thanks for some positive comments, I appreciate them so much and like I say, people who cannot relate to my approach - I can understand that what I may be doing is not right for you, but what is right for you is not right for me. I had to change my beliefs that I was the elephant man, a walking freak show, I just cannot tell you how self conscious, how negative, how awful I have felt about such beliefs. I actually like my nose now! I love my big nose! Wow - its taken 14 years to say that and I mean it - I do love my nose, its part of me, its part of what makes me unique. I am not perfect by any means whatsoever and I don't care if people don't find me attractive by looks alone. But I no longer need to be self conscious about this ever again!

 

[charlieHungerford]

Sorry for drifting away from the original topic for a minute, but I just have to say that CBT is not a lazy mans game. It takes ALOT of work. If you give up half way and dont stick by it, chances are youre gonna feel more anxiety, which some people say they do. It's not a quick fix, its a seriously scientifically proven method for reducing anxiety.

I don't much like when people try to 'philosophy' the concept of negative and positive thoughts. They try to make the argument that no thoughts are negative nor positive, rather its us who make the decision to label them as positive or negative. To me its pretty simple, a thought that says "I dont look good, If i dont look good I wont have a happy life" is a irrational and negative one and "What I look like is does not affect my happiness or my ability to live a fullfilling and productive life" is more rational and feels damn good, period.

^^^My opinion.

I can relate very much to that signs, nice post!
I wanted to add to what you say - people who are really insecure about their appearance and have had put downs in the past, negative comments or believing people deem they look ugly absolutely kills, I remember when I had a woman at work making jokes about my nose at work to 35 people in the office and laughing and being so rude, I was in tears for ages when I got home that night. I wanted to give up my job and never go back. My beliefs were so terrible, I was so self conscious, I felt so terrible about myself, I felt ashamed to even be in the same room as people because I felt I was just so inadequate.
It does hurt so much when you have beliefs about worrying people are going to be so critical of you, or believing that you are just simply not good enough. But these beliefs do not have to be like that, its only what you have learnt - i.e. my friend has a big nose and he laughs his head of about his nose, I love his reaction. Having a big nose does not have to be something one should be ashamed of or self conscious of, it doesn't really matter. I mean ok, some people will think I am ugly for my nose, but oh my god - I have heard people call models and celebrities ugly before who are clearly not. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and when you think of anyone you have liked loads in your life - if their nose was a bit bigger than ideal, would that change what you think of them, the answer I am sure would be no for 99.9% of the population. Yet I think other than my nose I am good enough, so something needed sorting out in my beliefs.

Signs, how are you getting on with your CBT? Tell me you are making fantastic progress.

 

[signs05]

I have started seeing a CBT therapist who helps me with my 'thought diaries' and analyzing my core beliefs etc, and its going really well. One of the biggest things to remember when doing CBT is that it can take some time to see a real change. Before, I used to change a thought, and then when it came back, I would think "okay its back, changing thoughts can't be done", when in actuality its pretty obvious you cant change a thought youve had everyday for 5-10 years in 5 minutes or even a day, it takes alot of practice.

We shall overcome.