How to cure Stage Fright.

[LittleMissMuffet]

...If Shakespeare's right and:-

"All the world's a stage, and the men and women merely players"

...how would you describe your acting style?

Do you follow the Stanislavski Method Acting style, like Marlon Brando and James Dean?
Or do you prefer Stellar Adler's and Sanford Meisner's alternative form of Method Acting?

.....

Seriously now! -What the hell am I talking about? ....well, the Stanislavski style of Method Acting involved the actor analysing (the emotions and motives of) their character and the actor would rely on past memories to bring life to their character. IN other words, a substantial degree of PREPARATION went into their performance.

The Adler and Meisner styles involved actors 'freeing themselves up' so that they could spontaneously respond to the moment and an actor's past memories are not to be used. In other words, this style is less focussed on prepartion and more about responding to the moment.

...ok, I don't know that much about acting.

The point is to ask yourself what kind of performer you are? Because, if we go by Shakespeare's description, and we are all players, actors -do we go about rehearsing our performance, and are we preoccupied with this? ...because if we are, perhaps our style of acting is wrong; and Meisner was correct to believe that a lot of perparation is 'unhealthy'.

And, if we are all players on the world's stage, perhaps we suffer from 'stage fright' because we over-prepare and likewise need to change our style of performing.

If you read the thread I started called 'Free advice from mindfulrecovery.com' ...Cesar Bujosa, of mindfulrecovery.com, wrote to me saying that Social Phobics suffer social anxiety because of what they do in private. They are preoccupied with images and fantasies about how they will 'perform' around others. That we daydream, imagining how we will act or what will happen. And being unconciously locked into such private mental practises, is what generates the apprehensive anxiety when we then 'go on stage to perform'.

Compare this style of 'acting' to the style that frees-up a person, that is all about responding to the moment. In other words, Mindfulness is like the method acting that replaces a preoccupation with what will happen or has happened , focusing only on being in and responding to the moment.
With, likewise, a corresponding lack of 'preparing' or 'mentally rehearsing' scenes in advance.

So, if responding to the moment is what will 'free-us up' from performance anxiety, then it follows that noticing when we are preoccupied with past memories or fantasies of the future is part of what will bring us back to the moment.

If we can notice when we are 'over-preparing' and not being spontaneous, then this means we actually are being spontaneous and returning to the moment. What I mean is that it is important to notice when we are lost in fantasy thinking, daydreaming or other preoccupations that involve acting or performing in a time or place other than the present one.

This way, we stop the habitual 'over prepartion' that leads to us freaking-out with stage fright when it is time to go on stage and say our lines.

( OK, I hope you get that I'm just using an analogy to try to explore this idea!!)

 

[rado31]

Hi miss,

But why do we over-prepare. Because we are fear of rejection.
I have notice a long ago that preparing doesnt solve anything. But instead of changing something about it , i became more and more insecure .
For example, how did i prepared myself on the university- I noticed that for some exam i forgot one, or two questions. Next what i did. I forced myself to woke up earlier and to read again whole material once again
(or some basic notes i usually made) . I had impression that it worked.
But, whole process is like torturing myself, and once you dont rely on your brains ability to remember , more anxious u do become. Rite now i work as a researcher , but i feel completely unfunctional. I dont believe my brain anymore Lol.
But, all this mentioned is acceptable, while preparing for human to human situations is total waste of time. U cant predict how other people will react. Maybe for one person, and that even sometimes. And it is extremely tough and unhealthy discipline. Although i still do it frequently.

Sorry for my english

 

[Tryin]

Right. Awesome post, Miss. Daydreaming distances us from reality. I realized that some time ago and now I'm trying to improvise more. But you know what's the difference between life and theatre? Nobody is watching. There won't be any applause, and there won't be any booing. So why don't we simply relax and enjoy being onstage?

:wink:

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Rado,

I posted this topic really because I wanted to draw attention to what Cesar Bujosi from www.mindfulrecovery.com said to me in an email.

I had asked him (because at his site he offers free councelling) whether my need to understand (every)thing was part of my anxiety -and he basically said yes. He told me that this is a 'maladaptive coping method' and that there are many that people with anxiety have to compensate for their disorientation and lack of security etc. And he says to look out for such ways that we maintain our anxiety and that we can learn to do this with tools like Mindfullness.

You seem to like Mindfulness. For me, this has been the first truly promising technique -and it is completely opposite to brooding and worrying that I think I tend to do. These traits are the negative sides to my thoughtful sensitive type of personality -and it makes sense to cultivate a more spontaneous, less thoughtful approach, and -like you said- especially when it comes to people situations. "Doers" do better, I think, than "thinkers" when it comes to being comfortably sociable around people.

If you read this email that Cesar from www.mindfulrecovery.com sent me, I think you will be quite impressed. And hopefully, if you haven't already, you can check out his site as well. He has got a whole strategy figured out for tackling anxiety problems. He himself recovered from Social Anxiety. The info on the site is actually quite brief when you take a good look at it. He uses Mindfulness with (what I think is called) Creative type of meditation where a painful memory or situation is visualised and we feel ourselves in it, then he switches back to Mindfulness and concentrating on breathing and relaxing ...I think this is to recondition ourselves to diffuse our strong fears about situations. He also gets us to practise Mindfulness thinking during the day so that this skill gets improved and maybe also so that we get used to knowing what it is like to feel calm and not tangled-up in preoccupations and emotions.

OK, I don't want to put you off by writing any more. Hopefully you will take a look at this site (and read the following copy of Cesar's email).
I just have faith that this stuff can really help (me).


here is the email...

In a message dated 4/1/2007 2:02:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, "LittleMissMuffet" writes:

"so perhaps it is wisest if I drop my desire/need to know what is going on...? "

Thanks for contacting me. The site is under construction again so keep coming back from time to time. "Needing to know" is likely one of several maladjusted coping moods that should be targeted for interruption. There are likely others.

Look into your self-talk when you are alone. When you create a fantacy-scenario look at the theme. What is the drama's theme?-what is the intent? If you can see your intent and name the theme, you will have another target for interruption.

Meditation will show you how to let go --be neither one way nor the other. This is the way to re-construct the complex.

Here are some thoughts that may be reinforcing:

Social Anxiety is diagnostically defined as a “marked and persistent fear of one or more social or performance situations in which the person is exposed to unfamiliar people or to possible scrutiny by others.” This initial part of the diagnostic definition portrays the circumstance that typically triggers the anxiety attack: It is fear related to social or performance situations -- not with close relations, friends or family. The diagnostic definition then elaborates on the nature of the fear experience: “The individual fears that he or she will act in a way (or show anxiety symptoms) that will be humiliating or embarrassing.” So the fear in social anxiety is being shamed, dishonored or disgraced. This is certainly a fine description. Further contained in this definition is a description of a common secondary feature which is the fear of being exposed as being anxious. In other words, there may be aggravated anxiety about having anxiety.

This pithy definition does not however suggest the cause of or its remedy. Thus to make the definition more serviceable I would add: “The condition is distinguished by avoidant behaviors and compensatory ideals forming as preoccupations that obstruct adjustment to the core fear.” Now the definition includes more of its symptoms and suggests a remedy-- The complex of Social Anxiety requires an absence therapeutic exposure to the offending fear for it to be sustained. Avoidance and overcompensations form and maintain the disorder.

So with the added description that Social Anxiety necessitates active avoidance let us approach understanding the condition from the perspective of its remedy rather than its miseries—a sort of reverse tactic. Here is a revealing scenario in which a typical intervention occurs. Imagine you have social anxiety and it's not just another morning. Today you have a meeting with your colleagues to discuss both last month’s business highlights and your plans for the coming month. What's more, you will be joined by a colleague who you admire. In the midst of getting yourself prepared for the day you find yourself transported by your imagination from your kitchen to the conference room. You see yourself bidding peers and supervisors good morning, chuckling, rustling papers and acting as if you were fully comfortable. As you prepare to leave your home your mind is negotiating two activities—one oriented to the present moment, the other to the future event. You are then rudely awakened from your daydream after mindlessly opening your refrigerator door when your intent was to find your house keys. As if suddenly discovering you were lost in dream, you become abruptly present to where you really are and what you were just doing. “God!” you scold yourself as if striking a clang.

Then skillfully you determined that you will not condemn yourself as a bird-brain as you might have done just two months back. Being critical is almost a reflex; it works your symptoms up but you are not going there. You have learned to be more self accepting and you refuse to feel diminished by the fact that you were distracted by apprehensive anxiety. You are now familiar with such mental events. You review the nature of your fantasy and determined that the intent was to look good in the eyes of others and to redeem a loss sense of honor. You are by now quite familiar with these two themes. You whisper to yourself a healing mantra: "This is my emotional wound and I accept it completely." You allow yourself to briefly become aware of the present moment feeling your state of being. Though not elated, there is a sense of command and success that comes over you for you have once again identified and interrupted a toxic and maladjusted mental habit. You again resolve to refrain from such fantasies and launch into your work day without dependence on a script.

This brief account portrays an interruption of symptomatic ruminations that sustain social anxiety. The scenario further reveals key elements about the nature of the disorder. What is so critical about this scenario is that the symptoms of social anxiety are not primarily characterized as anxious moments in a social setting. This private episode is more insidious, less awkward but just as significant. Discomfort in a social encounter is only one aspect of the condition. Social anxiety is also understood as preoccupation, chronic self-consciousness and unwitting defensiveness.

By interrupting habitual defensiveness forming as intrusive fantasies and preoccupation, we strike at the maladjusted coping modes that sustain the condition. Social anxiety is not primarily healed on the stage of social performance; it is healed in the private moments of your life. We are consequently led to the ironic conclusion that social anxiety is more a private matter than a public one. We are privately working our symptoms up rather than down. We are covertly utilizing toxic modes of coping like Being Impressive that must be relinquished if we are to gain liberation.

Many of these toxic coping modes resemble adaptive coping but their intentions differ. Maladjusted modes are driven by aversion and they are excessive. A Recovery Inc. slogan for example goes: “We seek to be exceptional, but fear being less than average.” The slogan suggests the use of a conditional assumption that is maladaptive: “If I am exceptional then I am OK, but if I am not exceptional then I am not OK.” This conditional assumption may sound harmless enough, however it is not. It is, to begin with, untrue. We are Ok whether we are exceptional or not. Thus the idea that we must be exceptional creates an unnecessary imperative. This is what cognitive-behavioral innovator Albert Ellis called “musty” thinking. Conditional self-acceptance of this kind is less than wise. It is a setup for anxiety.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Tryin,

I kind of thought that too about my analogy. It's useful in one way (mostly to express well a basic idea the way that analogies can) but it sort of suggests that we are the centre of attention which is probably not such a good idea. Unless we take-on your attitude of not thinking that the spotlight is on us so much. ...the only thing is that this seems a hard idea to get out of my head, this self-conciousness.

I think, that vanity and egoccentricity go into social anxiety, but I also think that people are complicated and there may be needed other ways to lower this same self-centredness other than a simpler (and perhaps more ideal) strategy of giving up thinking about oneself. -I guess that it has to do with how concious a person is versus how unconcious...

... I think that perhaps it is a lot about becoming conciously aware that we are doing negative thinking and noticing when we are doing them. I guess that in the simplest sense, that it is difficult not to be self-centred when a person is more unconcious in their thoughts and behaviours than concious.

(It is good that you have been aware, I haven't been very aware of what such patterns of thinking could be contributing to.) -this is why I like what Mindfulness has to offer. The Buddhists say that it brings awareness, that it brings 'sight' and then it is easy to know what to do then.

 

[JamesMorgan]

Little Miss

I haven't posted in a while but saw this one and decided to bring it back to life.

We can prepare for anything, this is necessary in daily life, if we are unprepared we wont be able to fulfill our future goals or wishes.

The problem arises because we do not understand control. Because we lack control of our mind we are slaves to our imagination which can be used against us to send us into a negative mental space. Our external world to much an extent is uncontrollable. We dont know whats going to happen. This lack of acceptance turns us to creating a 'perfect world' or perfect situation for ourself, which invariably leads to much fear and overp preparing, trying really hard to get thinsg a certain way. The unrealistic expectations we project onto our changing world concretes us to a world in which we live without freedom or comfort.

When we prepare anything there are certain things that can help us to 'let go'. If we can use our mind like a big filing cabinet, putting thoughts neatly away for when we need them, this will free our energy to think positively and constructively. Yet most of us dont do this. Much confidence comes from correct thinking and ceasing to over think things, this usually results in obsessive doubts and attcking oneself. This then leads us to thinking we are incapable, destroying confidence in our ability and perpetuating the cycle.

A simple confidence booster that has helped me for preparing goes a bit like this:

Intention, Detach, Accept

1. Start with a positive intention/motivation and be sure that it will bring positive results gathering whatever you need to fulfill your goal regardless of how big the task

2. Strongly decide to detach from the outcome with patience on the basis of your positive intention

3. Accept that most things are out of your control and resolve that if your mind stops over thinking, you will reamain more peaceful and will more likely fulfill your wish.

If we allow ourselves to dwell on the 'unknown' we will leave ourself wide open to self doubt, all we need to do is try our best and be happy with it.

Our success usually comes through our failings anyway, meaning that to really learn anything it's inveitable that we will eventually fail. We're so afraid of failure though aren't we? Why? Personally, i have learnt more through failing in my life and my plans/expectations being unfulfilled than any of my successes because i have learnt to let go of trying to control and just letting things be and just trying with a good heart. Then whatever happens, success always comes regardless of how things appear. So deveopling a fearless attitude toward failure is usueful. But we take our plans so seriously that we cannot accept or learn from what life throws at us. Being patient with ourself is also important, we will fail, so what, we learn, great!

Speak soon!

James

 

[charlieHungerford]

I really like your posts and how motivated and focused and enthusiastic you are about overcoming SA.

I also know we suffer very differently, have different fears, different negative beliefs, etc, and what you say does sound appropriate for how you feel I must admit.

But how does this work for people who have low self esteem, who are self conscious of perceived flaws, people who have received ridicule or put downs when centre of attention and fear such things happening again or people who fear situations like presentations and find it hard to get their words out due to anxiety? These beliefs and fears are not something you can consciously think away on the spot, they take a lot of work desensitising them and gaining confidence in yourself, believing there is nothing wrong with you and you are good enough.

Do you believe what you talk about would work for people who I have described above, because I just cannot believe it could.

 

[JamesMorgan]

Hi Charlie,

Good to hear from you.

"Do you believe what you talk about would work for people who I have described above, because I just cannot believe it could."

Only by trying and gaining experience for yourself will you know if it works or not.

I feel if a person asks themself what they believe, they can then see for themself what needs to change, are these beliefs working? Are they true? All of us have such blind faith in our own view of ourself, others, the world that we continue to experience such pain.

If a person believes that this would not work for them, then i would say give it a go, Why have such blind faith that it wont work for you?

Personally i feel that we should ask ourselves why we are so hard on ourselves? What good comes from that? When you find out something doesnt work, you give it up right? If you continue to smoke knowing the risks of cancer then its just silly. The same is true in regards to our thinking about presentations and the like, we need to see what thinking works and abandon ways of thinking that does not. So, like good scientists we test to see if things work. Then we will know for sure and with confidence that it works, so we believe it more.

James

 

[phoenix1]

Hi charlie,

I've read many of your posts and I always get the impression that whats causing you so much trouble is that you are looking at it in the wrong way.

As you said, you are trying to get confidence by believing that nothing is wrong with you. That approach will lead you in circles the rest of your life. There is always something 'wrong' with us. Confidence is in the idea that you know there are many things wrong with you and that you simply dont care or that you are just fine and dandy about any preceived flaws.

 

[charlieHungerford]

Hi charlie,

I've read many of your posts and I always get the impression that whats causing you so much trouble is that you are looking at it in the wrong way.

As you said, you are trying to get confidence by believing that nothing is wrong with you. That approach will lead you in circles the rest of your life. There is always something 'wrong' with us. Confidence is in the idea that you know there are many things wrong with you and that you simply dont care or that you are just fine and dandy about any preceived flaws.

How can you say that Phoenix? I have improved zillions in confidence and overcoming my SA. I have got to the point where I have one last issue to overcome, so I must be doing something right.

3 years ago I could hardly leave the house, I couldn't use the phone, I couldn't speak to people face to face, I couldn't go in shops, I couldn't go to the hairdressers, etc - I have overcome it all and overcome all my insecurities about my flaws in my speech and appearance which I was ridiculed so much for in my teenage years.

I have one last issue to overcome and am working on it. Everyone who knows me says I am a different person and have come out of my shell and really am so much more confident.

So am I looking at it in the wrong way?

 

[phoenix1]

Well, there is alot to be said about examining beliefs and conditioned fears, especially if they are illogical or no longer relavant. If you can convince yourself that you really are more normal than what your irrational beliefs say you are, then you are gonna get a major confidence boost and rightly so.

For example, if I grew up thinking I was stupid and then I took a IQ test and scored 130+. I would get a major confidence boost because I would realize that I'm not stupid afterall.

The problem with always trying to convice yourself that you are normal is that it can only go so far and that there will also be new things coming up that will hit your confidence. What if I took another test and did poorly, I would right back where I started. If confidence is built off thinking that you need to be normal, then its shaky at best. True confidence comes from knowing that you are *different* and not caring or believing that its not a problem at all. Knowing what you cant change and accepting that which you cant change.

 

[charlieHungerford]

Well, there is alot to be said about examining beliefs and conditioned fears, especially if they are illogical or no longer relavant. If you can convince yourself that you really are more normal than what your irrational beliefs say you are, then you are gonna get a major confidence boost and rightly so.

For example, if I grew up thinking I was stupid and then I took a IQ test and scored 130+. I would get a major confidence boost because I would realize that I'm not stupid afterall.

The problem with always trying to convice yourself that you are normal is that it can only go so far and that there will also be new things coming up that will hit your confidence. What if I took another test and did poorly, I would right back where I started. If confidence is built off thinking that you need to be normal, then its shaky at best. True confidence comes from knowing that you are *different* and not caring or believing that its not a problem at all. Knowing what you cant change and accepting that which you cant change.

I hear what you are saying, but we all arrive where we are for different reasons and experiences. I spent most of my teenage years being ridiculed, insulted, called names over my appearance and a speech impediment. I was so confident up until high school and left high school a wreck. All that negative feedback not only made me believe there was something very wrong with me and that I was so ugly, not good enough, I was some freak and I was so hurt by all of the feedback that I became so self conscious of my perceived flaws - my way to protect myself from being hurt - i.e. I would hide my flaws in order to stop people seeing them so that I wouldn't get ridiculed or judged negatively. But on top of all of that I believed that everyone is so judgemental and critical of me - and all of these negative beliefs needed correcting and desensitising and to understand the reality. Its worked amazing for me. I am not saying that this would work for everyone because I am sure a lot of people didn't feel this way about themselves or experience years of put downs.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the way I am looking at overcoming SA appears to be the wrong way in your eyes because I am sure you suffer very different, but this is the right way for me. I totally agree that my method is not right for littlemissmuffet, we have chatted a lot in the past and agreed we both have had different issues which require very different ways of overcoming this.

 

[phoenix1]

I hear what you are saying, but we all arrive where we are for different reasons and experiences. I spent most of my teenage years being ridiculed, insulted, called names over my appearance and a speech impediment. I was so confident up until high school and left high school a wreck. All that negative feedback not only made me believe there was something very wrong with me and that I was so ugly, not good enough, I was some freak and I was so hurt by all of the feedback that I became so self conscious of my perceived flaws - my way to protect myself from being hurt - i.e. I would hide my flaws in order to stop people seeing them so that I wouldn't get ridiculed or judged negatively. But on top of all of that I believed that everyone is so judgemental and critical of me - and all of these negative beliefs needed correcting and desensitising and to understand the reality. Its worked amazing for me. I am not saying that this would work for everyone because I am sure a lot of people didn't feel this way about themselves or experience years of put downs.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the way I am looking at overcoming SA appears to be the wrong way in your eyes because I am sure you suffer very different, but this is the right way for me. I totally agree that my method is not right for littlemissmuffet, we have chatted a lot in the past and agreed we both have had different issues which require very different ways of overcoming this.

Its true, we are on different ends of the spectrum, still many things hold true and I was trying to put it from your perspective. From what I can tell, you suffer somewhat similar to my wife. We both have anxiety, but from different ends. Her biggest problems are irrational fears, and a fear of accepting anything that is 'wrong' about herself. She has panic attacks which seems to stem from an inability to process anxieties to completion or in other words accepting things you cant change. Instead of accepting a flaw, she will do absolutely anything to hide it, try to change it or desperately try to convince herself that it is normal. This prolonges anxieties for years. And if you have many other things going on in your life as well, the anxieties just muddle together into some incredible buildup or a panic attack.

There are really 2 times that anxiety is cleared. Its at the point of a successful change or acceptance that you cant change it. If someone doesnt want to accept somethign they really cant change, then the anxiety will continue. The person may try to convince themselves that it is normal or that they have hidden or changed it to allievate anxiety and build temporary confidence, but in the end it will still affect them when they are ridiculed or think they are.

I'm not saying you are exactly like her, but the reason she has so many irrational fears and panic to begin with is that she doesnt process her anxieties to the final point. She doesnt want to deal with anything fully or in other words she doesnt want to accept anything. She says that she feels guilty or that its wrong to give up hope and she keeps fighting for it in an effort to make it right. She's blurred the line between knowing when to fight and when to give up and realize she cant change it or be 'normal'. She holds on to anxieties for years and its like a beast waiting to pounce on her at any moment.

I'm on the other end. I create a million different rational anxieties everyday because I have need to be perfect and be seen as perfect. I dont think I could ever have a panic attack because I dont allow anykind of build up in my brain. I purge all anxieties as quickly as possibly by desperately changing or quickly accepting that I cant do anything. Lack of acceptance isnt my problem at all. In a given day I go through so many mood fluctuations because I'm letting go of things with sadness and then realizing I dont need to let them go and I'm all happy again.

 

[charlieHungerford]

I hear what you are saying, but we all arrive where we are for different reasons and experiences. I spent most of my teenage years being ridiculed, insulted, called names over my appearance and a speech impediment. I was so confident up until high school and left high school a wreck. All that negative feedback not only made me believe there was something very wrong with me and that I was so ugly, not good enough, I was some freak and I was so hurt by all of the feedback that I became so self conscious of my perceived flaws - my way to protect myself from being hurt - i.e. I would hide my flaws in order to stop people seeing them so that I wouldn't get ridiculed or judged negatively. But on top of all of that I believed that everyone is so judgemental and critical of me - and all of these negative beliefs needed correcting and desensitising and to understand the reality. Its worked amazing for me. I am not saying that this would work for everyone because I am sure a lot of people didn't feel this way about themselves or experience years of put downs.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the way I am looking at overcoming SA appears to be the wrong way in your eyes because I am sure you suffer very different, but this is the right way for me. I totally agree that my method is not right for littlemissmuffet, we have chatted a lot in the past and agreed we both have had different issues which require very different ways of overcoming this.

Its true, we are on different ends of the spectrum, still many things hold true and I was trying to put it from your perspective. From what I can tell, you suffer somewhat similar to my wife. We both have anxiety, but from different ends. Her biggest problems are irrational fears, and a fear of accepting anything that is 'wrong' about herself. She has panic attacks which seems to stem from an inability to process anxieties to completion or in other words accepting things you cant change. Instead of accepting a flaw, she will do absolutely anything to hide it, try to change it or desperately try to convince herself that it is normal. This prolonges anxieties for years. And if you have many other things going on in your life as well, the anxieties just muddle together into some incredible buildup or a panic attack.

There are really 2 times that anxiety is cleared. Its at the point of a successful change or acceptance that you cant change it. If someone doesnt want to accept somethign they really cant change, then the anxiety will continue. The person may try to convince themselves that it is normal or that they have hidden or changed it to allievate anxiety and build temporary confidence, but in the end it will still affect them when they are ridiculed or think they are.

I'm not saying you are exactly like her, but the reason she has so many irrational fears and panic to begin with is that she doesnt process her anxieties to the final point. She doesnt want to deal with anything fully or in other words she doesnt want to accept anything. She says that she feels guilty or that its wrong to give up hope and she keeps fighting for it in an effort to make it right. She's blurred the line between knowing when to fight and when to give up and realize she cant change it or be 'normal'. She holds on to anxieties for years and its like a beast waiting to pounce on her at any moment.

I'm on the other end. I create a million different rational anxieties everyday because I have need to be perfect and be seen as perfect. I dont think I could ever have a panic attack because I dont allow anykind of build up in my brain. I purge all anxieties as quickly as possibly by desperately changing or quickly accepting that I cant do anything. Lack of acceptance isnt my problem at all. In a given day I go through so many mood fluctuations because I'm letting go of things with sadness and then realizing I dont need to let them go and I'm all happy again.

I can understand how you wife suffers, but I think your wife and I are in very different places now. I used to be so self conscious and hide my perceived flaws all the time, which is so problematic - just feeling so self conscious, anxious at being looked at, hating being centre of attention, just no confidence in oneself, worried what people think of you for your perceived flaws, etc, etc - but I have accepted my flaws which I felt so self conscious about and doing that has had an amazing effect on my life. It took a long time to accept my perceived flaws, a lot of work and understanding, but I did it. I now do believe I am good enough, I know I am not perfect, I know I have flaws, but at the end of the day everyone has flaws and I now realise my flaws make next to no difference to how I look or to how good I am or to what people think of me. I know a % of people will think I am ugly or not good enough but we all have a % of people who will think negative things of how we look, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I know there is a huge % who will think I do look good enough and a % of people who will like how I look. But why dwell on the % of people who think negatives of me, they mean nothing to me and have no impact on my life. I only worry about people who mean something to my life, not shallow people who think you are not good enough just because of a flaw.
Same with my speech impediment problems where I was laughed and ridiculed at for years and caused so many problems with being self conscious of speaking out loud, I no longer am self conscious about speech impediment and saying words wrong, its a sound, there will be a % of people who will laugh or think something negative of me or tease me for it, but being teased for this or someone repeating out loud what you said and then laughing is something you have to accept but at the same time realise it has no impact on my life and does not mean I am ugly, stupid, weird, non intelligent, etc.
Something is only hurtful if you perceive it as hurtful - which I used to find everything so hurtful, I suppose the aim was to accept myself and become thicker skinned.

Like I say, I have one last problem to overcome and once I have I will have overcome everything and the world will be my oyster. I am very very optimistic I will overcome SA totally in 2007.
So I hope you will see what I have been doing is not wrong and that I am a bit clueless. I don't relate to what Littlemissmuffet is doing in terms of overcoming SA but I am wouldn't say what she is doing is wrong or looking at things the wrong way. I mean SA is subconscious worries, which is why I asked the original question does what she suggests is relevant for people who have many insecurities and are self conscious and have had bad experiences in situations (not because that is how I still am). If someone is really insecure about their appearance and have received lots of put downs and been ridiculed, laughed at for how they look, when it comes to getting up in front of 30 people to talk, they are going to be so anxious and self conscious in that situation - their mind's way of protecting themselves - i.e. WARNING you are in danger of getting hurt, avoid this, escape this. How does what Littlemissmuffet work for someone like this? You cannot switch that anxiety off on the spot. The only way to sort it out is to do what I did with my insecurities and the hurt and the fears - neutralise and desensitise everything. I mean now - yeah I have a big nose which I was so self conscious of for 14 years, I no longer care, I no longer hide my nose or worry what people think and hence when people are looking at me I am no longer self conscious. I accept my nose.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Charlie,

I actually consider most, if not all, social anxiety sufferers to be essentially the same. There may be a few differences to consider but overall the problem is the same. So, whether a person has SA that is more inborn and inherited, or whether they acquired it as a result of abuse, the overall problem is still the same.

Having established that point, this thread was started to communicate a new insight into social anxiety that I had gotten from my reading of www.mindfulrecovery.com .The author, Cesar Bujosa, had written a reply email to me that talked about maladaptive coping modes that people with anxiety have. One of these was/is my need to understand anxiety back-to front -the need to know in other words.

Of course, when a person is lost and sufferring, they scramble to find a way out. Likewise, 'maladaptive coping methods' (as Cesar calls them) are almost impossible to avoid doing unless we already are foccusing with some conviction on a what instead is the solution.

So, I agree with you in the sense that it is very difficult to just "Stop worrying". We need something to focus on that actually works when we are worrying with anxiety and having an anxiety attack. The distress is otherwise just too much.

Listen to thess two quotes that I got from the 'to do' institute's website on what anxiety is and the benefits of meditation and mindfulness ....

"Anxiety is misdirected attention"

"The mere act of trying to hold the mind to a single point, an act with which higher forms of meditation begin, teaches the beginner in a radically concrete and experiential way that he or she has little or no control over the mental flow. All attentional training starts with this failure. This is the great step in the wok of objectifying the mental flow, that is, of seeing it not as something that 'I' am doing, but something that is simply happening. Without this realization no progress can be made, for one must first know one is in prison in order to work intelligently to escape."
�Philip Novak

So, mindfulness practise can allow us to desensitise from our thoughts and emotions. ....This essentially means that we accept having our feelings and through this acceptance we slow-down from being in the vicious circle, and integrate our strong emotions.

Instead of trying to do something about our feelings or trying to quit having them or change having them -we notice having them.
We practise awareness of our thoughts and feelings, long enough and often enough to become very aware of what we are thinking when we are thinking it. ...This is basically a skill -and it is the skill of Mindfulness.

The Buddhists say that there are two basic skills of the mind, one of concentration and the other of mindfulness. The first is to be able to focus attention strongly, the second however, is about being able to focus attention on a chosen object and not become distracted.
And technically a very good description for anxiety is a preoccupation or worry (about some specific situation or event). So, developing the skill of Mindfulness, therefore seems like the ideal way to be able to develop the ability to think the thoughts you want to think adn to let go of irrational fears or feelings. ...the trick of course is the Mindful approach of actually accepting these irrational -and to our mind- unnacceptable feelings and thoughts. Making them conscious or making ourselves conscious of what our thoughts and feelings are in the moment that we think or feel them, has the effect of making these smaller.

The way we are stuck dealing with these distressingly strong or innappropriate emotions is that we remain on the alert, vigilantly watching out that we do not have these feelings and thoughts. And I think that this attempt to control this initial reaction is such a natural -a very natural- response ie; in simpler words: it is difficult not to have a fear of our anxiety. However, I think that accepting our turbulent emotions and thoughts -especially in the Mindful manner which is as the Impartial Observer- is a very strong way by which to actually diffuse our strong emotions and get through our anxiety problems this way.

As far as the rest is concerned, it is perhaps about practise and application of the technique. This quote from www.budsas.org "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Gunaratana Mahathera, explains the necessity to practise Mindfulness for bigger problems or, likewise, for more unconscious thoughts and beliefs...

"Mindfulness is a function that disarms distractions, in the same way that a munitions expert might defuse a bomb. Weak distractions are disarmed by a single glance. Shine the light of awareness on them and they evaporate instantly, never to return. Deep-seated, habitual thought patterns require constant mindfulness repeatedly applied over whatever time period it takes to break their hold. Distractions are really paper tigers. They have no power of their own. They need to be fed constantly, or else they die. If you refuse to feed them by your own fear, anger, and greed, they fade."

 

[charlieHungerford]

So, developing the skill of Mindfulness, therefore seems like the ideal way to be able to develop the ability to think the thoughts you want to think adn to let go of irrational fears or feelings. ...the trick of course is the Mindful approach of actually accepting these irrational -and to our mind- unnacceptable feelings and thoughts. Making them conscious or making ourselves conscious of what our thoughts and feelings are in the moment that we think or feel them, has the effect of making these smaller.

But these beliefs are not irrational, I think everyone's beliefs are rational, but are just destructive. The feelings and beliefs I have had are very very rational. i.e. if someone was so hurt by being ridiculed over how they look for many years, its very very rational to be self conscious and protect yourself from getting hurt by avoiding people seeing your flaws and putting yourself in situations where you may get hurt - i.e. centre of attention. I have overcome this now, but these fears are not crazy thoughts or we are ill in the head, its protecting us and you cannot just turn them off. Its like if I got bitten by a dog when I was young, next time I saw a dog I would be anxious and fearful of the dog as I would believe I would get hurt, so I place negative and fearful labels on the dog and my mind will tell me to avoid the dog. Is this irrational? If you do not learn to change these beliefs about a dog being hurtful and dangerous you will remain scared of the dog, just like I used to be hurt be negative criticism.

Instead of trying to do something about our feelings or trying to quit having them or change having them -we notice having them.
We practise awareness of our thoughts and feelings, long enough and often enough to become very aware of what we are thinking when we are thinking it. ...This is basically a skill -and it is the skill of Mindfulness.

If I had to do a presentation which is my ultimate fear which I am trying to overcome currently, I will be absolutely crapping myself automatically just as soon as someone says 'Charlie, you have to do a presentation in front of 30 people next week on a training course at work'. How does what you suggest overcome this anxiety? I would love to hear how you believe this can be overcome using 'mindfulness'. Bear in mind I have a fear of presentations because when I was a teenager I was ridiculed and insulted for years over how I looked and a speech impediment. I felt so self conscious speaking out loud because people ridiculed me and laughed at me and made me feel like a freak for how I said words slightly wrong. (I have overcome all my insecurities about looks and speaking now, but I am now left with overcoming the fear of the situation of presentations, public speaking which my mind sees as so dangerous because of how much hurt I have experienced in the past). When I was 15 I was so self conscious speaking out loud (because everytime I did it people would laugh at me and repeat words I said wrong, it was awful) that I went to pieces in a presentation and couldn't get my words out because of how anxious I was. I then avoided doing such things for so many years and just drank alcohol when I had to do a presentation because I was so anxious about doing them - no confidence or belief I could do it, and the fact my mind recognised these situations as so dangerous and the anxiety would be there to protect me by saying AVOID THIS SITUATION, YOU ARE IN SO MUCH DANGER OF GETTING HURT AND HUMILIATED! I am now working on changing the phobia I have of presentations and public speaking - by working on my beliefs that have developed, working on the hurt of being ridiculed and my mind believing I will be ridiculed, the only outcome is humiliation and hurt, working on beliefs that speaking out loud in front groups of people and understanding its not really dangerous and all my fears and beliefs are so negative, exaggerated, unfair, etc and started off to protect me from hurt over my speech impediment. I mean it developed around immature kids, who were so hurtful. All my beliefs about presentations are rational because it did hurt me so much, my mind simply protected me from this hurt by making me avoid these situations.

How does what you suggest overcome this fear, because these automatic thoughts are subconscious and until I change my beliefs and desensitise the fears properly, this anxiety will remain sky high, my mind will be so anxious to protect me from what it believes as being so dangerous for me, its automatic, just like if I saw a lion I would get so anxious and scared and my mind would say quick get out of this situation right now. This is my last fear to overcome which I am working on and have 100% confidence I can overcome it, I am not seeking help, but asking because I am wondering what you suggest is the answer to overcome this using 'mindfulness'.

 

[phoenix1]

Hi Charlie,

I see what you mean. It sounds like you've done a combination of pruning those irrational or overexaggerated anxieties and then using acceptance and lowering of expectations (e.g. people dont really care as much as they do, and you are still a good person regardless of one trait or feature).

I think the difference between an irrational anxiety and a rational anxiety is that you can more easily get rid of irrational beliefs just by exposure and then fully dealing with the anxiety to its completion. Like if you were bit by a big dog one day, a irrational belief would be fear or anxiety around even a tiny dog like a chihuahua - the dog really couldnt cause any harm at all, but you havn't had enough exposure and processing to fully pinpoint the actual danger.

Or lets take your other example. If you were ridiculed growing up because at one point you couldnt speak properly in some way. Then as an adult you still get really anxious around talking even though you can talk fine now. That would be irrational, because its no longer real. If you had enough exposure and time to process the new anxities, it would eventually dissapear. A rational anxiety would be if nothing has changed or its actually gotten worse and you still desire or expect to be like everyone else is that aspect.

Just by processing and dealing with anxieties, you can really prune down the irrational fears, but it wont take away the rational part which is driven by expecatations. Which I think you've already tackled as well (which is really good).

I agree with missmuffet in that I think we really do suffer in very similar ways if we are talking about anxiety, because there are some things that are fundementally the same regardless of how it came to be.

Like I think some people need to process more anxieties (to the point of acceptance if need be) if they have more irrational fears. Some people need to lower expectations and overall acceptance in order to stop trying to be perfect or expecting others to be perfect if they are fully rational based. Most people need to do both I believe.

And I think mindfulness is good for both irrational and rational anxieties. It just seems to tone both down a bit so they arnt so difficult. It is a symptom blocker though and doesnt quite hit the core in my opinion. It does in some ways though, because it puts things into perspective and does do alot of pruning of way overexaggerated and irrational anxieties. I see mindfulness as a great mop-up type of technique. There are things that we will never be able to change the core of because its so intrenched into up upbringing. So mindfulness is really the only good effective thing that will just make some of those things more managable. If you can hit the frontside with greater acceptance and expectation lowring and then mop-up the backside with mindfulness, you are doing pretty damn good

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Charlie,

First I would like to say something that I later remembered I should have said.... You seem to be doing something similar to CBT (in your own way) and, whilst I don't find CBT very helpful, some people do. My simple observation is that because some people find such a thing helpful, then, literally- some people find such a thing helpful.

I like to have faith and really focus my energy on whatever method seems to work for me; I think that this is necessary to get anywhere. But I also try to remind my self thar from where I stand, I cannot as yet see and appreciate a problem from everyone's perspective. Similar to this, it is wise to keep openminded about different ways of dealing with a problem. ....So a bit of staying open and of fcoussing on one way, I think, is needed.

But, as for your question about how mindfulness can help with negative beliefs -I would suggest that you take a look at the following site and read the section called "Treatment" - www.mindfulrecovery.com
This site shows how Mindfulness, together with a creative/analytical type of approach, can be used to bring balance and perspective back to our emotions and beliefs.

As far as anything else goes, I don't understand enough at this stage -I'd like to have a clever answer as to just how all this works ...what methods work best and when and why... however, I am still reading and learning about such things.

finally, I trust my own personal experience. The simplest way of finding out if something truly works for a person is just to try it and see. And I have a basic faith in personal experience -mine and other peoples'. Also I think that different ways work because people experience the same problem to differing degrees.

And I think that Mindfulness is helpful where methods like CBT are no-longer enough; which means that both techniques may be necessary; or CBT may be enough on its own; or Mindfulness may be the most important thing to do ...my hunch has been -and apparently professionals think so also- that it depends on how thoroughly a person is stuck within the problem and therefore how through they need to be with their solution; and Mindfulness seems to be relevant when this is the case.