How much current for Idromed DC

[g35]

Hi guys, I was wondering how much current (amps) people are using for their Idromed Dc treatments? The recommended setting is 15amp max, but I asked markus and he said its ok to go higher its just that i might get burns easier. I'm using 18amps right now, is it not safe? Im getting 99% dryness with 18 amps. what are you guys using?

 

[Jezza]

I ain't using mine since it didn't work for me really. I've tried various settings from 10-20. First I did the regular schedule from the manual, then I tried doing 1 hour at a time etc...I've heard from most that it is usually better to do 10 than go extreme and do much more.

On wikipedia you can find this:

"A low-voltage (110 or 230 V), 50 or 60-Hz AC current through the chest for a fraction of a second may induce ventricular fibrillation at currents as low as 60 mA. With DC, 300 to 500 mA is required. If the current has a direct pathway to the heart (e.g., via a cardiac catheter or other kind of electrode), a much lower current of less than 1 mA, (AC or DC) can cause fibrillation. If not immediately treated by defibrillation, fibrillations are usually lethal because all the heart muscle cells move independently. Above 200 mA, muscle contractions are so strong that the heart muscles cannot move at all."

So you won't be able to kill yourself with the machine (unless you apply it directly to your heart, which, will be difficult).

Personally when I first did ionto it was at a physio and I got schocked at 53mA (long story). It hurt enough for me to immediately pull back my hands but I didn't get more than some minor burns on my wrists from it (I hope). I think that if you go over 20mA though it will be quite uncomfortable to keep your hands in 15min.

 

[iamthenra]

I ain't using mine since it didn't work for me really. I've tried various settings from 10-20. First I did the regular schedule from the manual, then I tried doing 1 hour at a time etc...I've heard from most that it is usually better to do 10 than go extreme and do much more.

On wikipedia you can find this:

"A low-voltage (110 or 230 V), 50 or 60-Hz AC current through the chest for a fraction of a second may induce ventricular fibrillation at currents as low as 60 mA. With DC, 300 to 500 mA is required. If the current has a direct pathway to the heart (e.g., via a cardiac catheter or other kind of electrode), a much lower current of less than 1 mA, (AC or DC) can cause fibrillation. If not immediately treated by defibrillation, fibrillations are usually lethal because all the heart muscle cells move independently. Above 200 mA, muscle contractions are so strong that the heart muscles cannot move at all."

So you won't be able to kill yourself with the machine (unless you apply it directly to your heart, which, will be difficult).

Personally when I first did ionto it was at a physio and I got schocked at 53mA (long story). It hurt enough for me to immediately pull back my hands but I didn't get more than some minor burns on my wrists from it (I hope). I think that if you go over 20mA though it will be quite uncomfortable to keep your hands in 15min.

That sounds dangerous to me! When I would hold both probes off of an Ohm meter, I usually get around 60,000 Ohms. Ohms law states that Voltage devided by resistant measured in Ohms equals the current that will flow through the load... The load in this case is your body. So the path would be from one hand to the other... Your heart is directly in the middle of the path. I most certainly would not do this unless I had a death wish.

 

[Jezza]

@Iamthenra

Ohm's law = I = V/R. I (amperage) is the important thing here and according to wikipedia shouldn't be above 200mA for it not to be dangerous. You say you get 60000 Ohms, well actually the more ohm you get, the smaller I. For instance 230V/60000 = approx 4mA.

However, the idromed let's you directly set the amperage, so if the current becomes dangerous at 200mA it should be fine at 20mA.

 

[iamthenra]

@Iamthenra

Ohm's law = I = V/R. I (amperage) is the important thing here and according to wikipedia shouldn't be above 200mA for it not to be dangerous. You say you get 60000 Ohms, well actually the more ohm you get, the smaller I. For instance 230V/60000 = approx 4mA.

However, the idromed let's you directly set the amperage, so if the current becomes dangerous at 200mA it should be fine at 20mA.

Don't lecture me about electronics... I am an electronic tech, and have been for over 17 years. I eat sleep breathe Ohms law... I graduated top of my class... 60k ohms for me, may not be the same for others...who have a lower amount of resistance. If the person is sweaty and has water on their wrists... Water or sweat being a great conductor of electricity. And yes, just a few milliamps IS enough to cause ventricular fibrillation or heart failure to occur... I still stand by what I had already said. It is dangerous. Do what you want, it's your life...

 

[Jezza]

Well, if you say so. If you cut through your sternum first and then apply the electrodes directly to your heart I'm sure it wouldn't be healthy.

I think though that, if it would be as dangerous as you say, HH would no longer exist, seeing that it is according to docs a hereditary disease and almost everyone with HH has at some point tried ionto, we would all be dead right now.

...Wait...ARE we D-D-DEAD!?!

And I'm sure Rambo would have died too, so seeing as though he's still alive...You know sweathelp.org...yeah, they have a section that's about ionto and how safe it is.

Seriously though, I don't know what your intentions are by posting this, but if you've been an electronic tech for 17 years I'm sure you've had a fair share of much heavier shocks than whatever a regular ionto device can come up with and it seems like your still alive...People are being treated in hospitals for decades with ionto, and it's very helpful for some...so before you're going to make people feel bad about the treatment they take every day or regularly, get your facts straight, get some proof. Show me the reports of the otherwise healthy people that died from ionto or it didn't happen. Millions of people use it every year probably, so if people are dying from it there should be one report of it, right? Do some research first...

You're basically saying there's some conspiracy going on to kill off people with HH and although I'm not always happy about how the medical community treats hh, that's just silly.

 

[iamthenra]

If electricity was so safe to the human body, then why is electrical wire make with a dielectric? An insulator, to prevent people from being electrocuted. And also to prevent electrical fires too... I do have my facts straight about electricity and the human heart. I have not once said anything about the device you are using... I have not condemned this device, all I am saying is from an electrical standpoint, I would not subject anyone to electrical current going through a persons heart. And yes, the heart is in the path between both of your arms... If this device is safe, then by all means go for it... I am saying that if you pass just milliamps of current through the heart, it can interfere with the electrical pulses from the nervous system that maintain the rhythm. I am not trying to make anyone feel bad either... I had to interject with what I know, because electronics has been my bread and butter for almost 2 decades.... So I do know allot about electricity. Like I said, it's your life. Do what you want.

Here is a link to an AED manufacturer... This gives you an idea of how much resistance/impedance the patient has across the chest. The pads are usually placed at the arm pit and the other on the opposite side of the chest lower rib area. This AED will generate high voltage in order for the current to flow. Since you already know OHMs law, do the math... The voltage and current from an AED is direct current, since the voltage from the AED comes from capacitor discharge, it obviously is DC.... Here is the link: http://www.cardiacscience.com/assets/003/5287.pdf AED's will momentarily stop the heart, to allow it to regain it's normal rhythm....

 

[generation7]

Lol you contradict yourself. You say

"I have not condemned this device, all I am saying is from an electrical standpoint, I would not subject anyone to electrical current going through a persons heart."

Yet you wrote before:

"And yes, just a few milliamps IS enough to cause ventricular fibrillation or heart failure to occur... I still stand by what I had already said. It is dangerous. Do what you want, it's your life..."

"Your heart is directly in the middle of the path. I most certainly would not do this unless I had a death wish."

It sounds to me you are condemning the device. It's like you are hoping someone dies so you can say "see I told you so". But anyway, I'm sure if it wasn't safe and killing people we would all be hearing about it whether through recalls or lawsuits. I mean it would be pretty obvious what the cause of the death would be if it occurred. But thankfully so far it looks like that has not been the case.

Personally, I'm more worried about possible side effects from long term use than anything else.

But I don't really think it's productive to freak people out here. We are all on the same boat here and for many of us iontophoresis is the only thing that has been somewhat effective and so far deemed safe.

 

[iamthenra]

You're wrong. I am not contradicting myself... I do not know what this device does, other than what the initial comment was about sending 15 or 18 amps of current through a body... And knowing what I know about a constant current power supply, the voltage has to adjust itself to maintain a constant current. Simple math with a simple formula, you can see just how much voltage it is going to require to send that much current through a body. So to get 15 amps of current to flow through the body which varies allot, say it's 50k Ohms of impedance or resistance, it will take 15A*50kOhms=750KV. Now the AED data or specifications indicates that it sends around 1800Volts DC with impedance that varies, but lets just say it's 125ohms. So that would be 1800V/125Ohms= 14.4Amps. An AED will stop the heart, so that it can start back up on it's own with a regular rhythm. Being a tech, and having allot of medical knowledge. I am speaking from my point of view... That's all... Information is power. Trying to be helpful not freak people out as you say. I'm done here....

 

[generation7]

No doubt information is power, but writing jibberish about volts this Ohms that is not good information. Although it may be true, I just skipped over those parts because it sounded like my professor from college putting us to sleep.

 

[Jezza]

Yes well, no evidence whatsoever then...

Moving on...

 

[g35]

........... can you guys answer my question lol