Complete Recovery from SP-Heixi Therapy (6)-Real Acceptance

[Jacky1980]

The core of Heixi Therapy (Oriental Philosophy Therapy) is “Acceptance”, but what does Acceptance mean anyway, some people in this forum have asked me “I have accepted for years, why I haven’t recovered at all”, so today I will try to explain “what is the real acceptance”, due to language barrier, I don’t know whether I can perfectly make myself understood, but I will try my best.

In the case of treatment of Social Anxiety, some people thinks of “Acceptance” as a sort of method or therapy, they may say to themselves: “I accept myself, I accept my flaw, accept my blushing, accept my nervousness, then I can recover”, actually most people can alleviate their symptoms by thinking so, because they have fought for so long, such way of thinking can give them a sound rest. Then after some months, some of them found such way of thinking will not work when they felt timid, shy or embarrassed, they still blush before people, they still feel they are stupid in people’s eyes or in public situation, so they feel that “acceptance” is the wrong way. What a pity, they never realize “Acceptance” is the only way out, the problem is that they have misunderstood it, they have taken “Acceptance” as a sort of method, in their minds, consciously or sub-consciously, they want to use this method to cure “Social Phobia”, obviously it is a self-contradiction, since you accept it, why you want to cure it? Since you want to cure it, actually you still cannot accept it. Buddhism tells us: “all the troubles come out from desire” In the case of Social Phobia, I dare say, the very reason we get Social Phobia is that we have a desire to cure it or eradicate it, the very reason we have Social Phobia is that we cannot accept Social Phobia.

So, how should we comprehend “Acceptance” in the case of Social Phobia? The answer is “surrender”, yes, surrender, and surrender to your Social Phobia, saying to yourself, “OK, you win. I lose, I don’t want to struggle with you again. Accept it, accept it not for curing it, accept it because you despair of curing it. Even if the Social Phobia will accompany you for the rest of your life, you don’t care about it because you have no way to cure it, “no way” is the only way out.

Next time when you are attacked by Social Phobia, say to yourself: “yes, it is me, I am a nervous person, I am a timid and shy person, why should I pretend to be brave and talkative; I am so nervous, why should I pretend to be easy; I am so anxious, why should I pretend to be calm.” I am myself, not anyone else, why should I pretend to be someone else, no one in this world can be anyone else, and we can only be ourselves.

Some people may blame me for my radical view, if I had heard such perspective, I also would not have believed it, however it is just how I have recovered. Some people may think if they don’t have a desire to cure Social Phobia, they will stay in this prison for ever, but I can assure you that such thing will never happen.

Take myself as an example, when I truly accept myself under the guidance of Mr. Heixi, realizing that I can only be myself rather than anyone else in this world, I was suddenly free, I didn’t try any means to consciously cure my Social Phobia, I didn’t have a desire to eradicate those symptoms such as blushing or shyness. When I talked with people or see them in their eyes, I still felt shyness, I still want to hide away from them, but I had no mental conflict in my mind, I didn’t think how to repel or cure such problem, because I thought I was just a such person, so I didn’t force myself to do anything, if I wanted to hide away, I just hid away, if I felt I could persevere, I just persevered. Maybe I would still be laughed at, still be ridiculed for my bad performance, but in my mind, I was free, I didn’t have a desire to solve my problem, although on the surface, I was still the same, but in my mind, I began to make the first step towards “acceptance”. Even if I blushed to some extreme degree, I didn’t care, I knew I was just such a person, even if sometimes I felt extremely embarrassed, I didn’t care, because it was me, I was just such a person.

When I got into this path towards Acceptance, then after some time, gradually, because I am not afraid of blushing, I blushed less and less, and finally, I seldom blushed naturally. Because I was not afraid of feeling embarrassed, I felt that way less and less, and finally I felt quite easy and I was able to control myself . etc.

I just wish Heixi Therapy and my own recovery experience can shed some light on the treatment of Social Phobia, for many years, what people are thinking is how to control it, we have gone the wrong direction. We have to start with “not controlling”, then we can finally get control of it. Actually this simple phenomenon can be found everywhere. Sometimes when we are extremely afraid of writing or typing mistake, we tend to make more mistakes when typing or writing, when we are extremely afraid of slip tongue, we tend to say more wrong words, when we are extremely afraid of not sleeping well, we tend to suffer from insomnia.


So, now, could you understand, what acceptance means here now? Ask questions if you have, I hope I can make myself understood.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Re: Complete Recovery from SP-Heixi Therapy (6)-Real Accepta

In the case of treatment of Social Anxiety, some people thinks of “Acceptance” as a sort of method or therapy, they may say to themselves: “I accept myself, I accept my flaw, accept my blushing, accept my nervousness, then I can recover”.... Then after some months, some of them found such way of thinking will not work .... they still feel they are stupid in people’s eyes or in public situation, so they feel that “acceptance” is the wrong way. What a pity, they never realize “Acceptance” is the only way out, the problem is that they have misunderstood it, they have taken “Acceptance” as a sort of method, in their minds, consciously or sub-consciously, they want to use this method to cure “Social Phobia”, obviously it is a self-contradiction, since you accept it, why you want to cure it? Since you want to cure it, actually you still cannot accept it. Buddhism tells us: “all the troubles come out from desire” In the case of Social Phobia, I dare say, the very reason we get Social Phobia is that we have a desire to cure it or eradicate it, the very reason we have Social Phobia is that we cannot accept Social Phobia.

So, how should we comprehend “Acceptance” in the case of Social Phobia? The answer is “surrender”, yes, surrender, and surrender to your Social Phobia, saying to yourself, “OK, you win. I lose, I don’t want to struggle with you again. Accept it, accept it not for curing it, accept it because you despair of curing it. Even if the Social Phobia will accompany you for the rest of your life, you don’t care about it because you have no way to cure it, “no way” is the only way out.

Next time when you are attacked by Social Phobia, say to yourself: “yes, it is me, I am a nervous person, I am a timid and shy person, why should I pretend to be brave and talkative; I am so nervous, why should I pretend to be easy; I am so anxious, why should I pretend to be calm.” I am myself, not anyone else, why should I pretend to be someone else, no one in this world can be anyone else, and we can only be ourselves.

Some people may blame me for my radical view, if I had heard such perspective, I also would not have believed it, however it is just how I have recovered. Some people may think if they don’t have a desire to cure Social Phobia, they will stay in this prison for ever, but I can assure you that such thing will never happen.

Take myself as an example, when I truly accept myself under the guidance of Mr. Heixi, realizing that I can only be myself rather than anyone else in this world, I was suddenly free, I didn’t try any means to consciously cure my Social Phobia, I didn’t have a desire to eradicate those symptoms such as blushing or shyness. When I talked with people or see them in their eyes, I still felt shyness, I still want to hide away from them, but I had no mental conflict in my mind, I didn’t think how to repel or cure such problem, because I thought I was just a such person, so I didn’t force myself to do anything, if I wanted to hide away, I just hid away, if I felt I could persevere, I just persevered. Maybe I would still be laughed at, still be ridiculed for my bad performance, but in my mind, I was free, I didn’t have a desire to solve my problem, although on the surface, I was still the same, but in my mind, I began to make the first step towards “acceptance”. Even if I blushed to some extreme degree, I didn’t care, I knew I was just such a person, even if sometimes I felt extremely embarrassed, I didn’t care, because it was me, I was just such a person.

When I got into this path towards Acceptance, then after some time, gradually, because I am not afraid of blushing, I blushed less and less, and finally, I seldom blushed naturally. Because I was not afraid of feeling embarrassed, I felt that way less and less, and finally I felt quite easy and I was able to control myself . etc.

I just wish Heixi Therapy and my own recovery experience can shed some light on the treatment of Social Phobia, for many years, what people are thinking is how to control it, we have gone the wrong direction. We have to start with “not controlling”, then we can finally get control of it. Actually this simple phenomenon can be found everywhere. Sometimes when we are extremely afraid of writing or typing mistake, we tend to make more mistakes when typing or writing, when we are extremely afraid of slip tongue, we tend to say more wrong words, when we are extremely afraid of not sleeping well, we tend to suffer from insomnia.


So, now, could you understand, what acceptance means here now? Ask questions if you have, I hope I can make myself understood.

LittleMissMuffet says....
I have to say something Jacky. :roll: I have a few points to raise with you.

:x :x




...just kidding: I think that what you've written is absoutely brilliant!!!!!!!!!!!
:!: :!:

 

[phoenix1]

Jacky,

Great article. Hopefully its helpful for people to see how giving up actually can path the way to better control in the end for many people. I’ve been a huge advocate of that for many years as well.

I do have a couple thoughts / questions though

The basis of pure surrender or acceptance is that the ‘fight’ needs to be irrelevant or pointless. The problem is that the social anxiety ‘fight’ is not fully irrelevant as you seem to indicate. If you fight only against social anxiety itself such as being anxious about being anxious, then the ‘fight’ is completely irrelevant and everything you say is correct and submission would be fairly easy. Blushing is a nice example that you used because its similar too because the more anxious you get the more you blush. The fight against blushing is irrelevant too. But people fight not just against social anxiety itself, but against making mistakes around others, saying or doing the wrong thing or being disliked by others or the need to be seen in a good light. This is the stuff that drives most of the anxiety to begin with. The anxiety fight is not irrelevant there because that heightened state actually does do some things to prevent you from making mistakes or making sure you look or act as good as possible. This is some of the ‘effective part’ of social anxiety which creates it to begin with and makes us think we can hold on to it.

The biggest problem is not a lack of knowledge of the solution (even though there is), but rather an inherent desire for social anxiety over acceptance (even though we don’t realize it). We hate social anxiety, but we also have such a strong need to not be seen in a poor social light that we will choice anxiety over acceptance any day of the week, even knowing all the pain it causes. It’s that inherent sensitivity, perfectionism, high expectations and need to be liked that drives the anxiety to begin with that’s so hard to be rid of.

I do agree with most of what you say though. But I think its more relevant for peeling back that top layer of almost every socially anxious person has. The anxiety about social anxiety itself. The more we fight, the more anxious we get. Its completely pointless to fight and we all need to stop fighting it. Do you have any specific techniques to combat the high expectations that drive high social anxiety or any of the driving forces behind what creates social anxiety / or other high anxiety to begin with?

 

[sabbath92001]

Heixi Therapy seems similar to Acceptance & Commitment Therapy (ACT). In ACT we learn not to take our thoughts and emotions literally. We become observers to our minds and bodies. ACT says we can't control our thoughts or emotions. Instead we learn to control our arms, legs and mouth. Mindfulness is also used to keep us focused on the present moment. Our values help to guide and motivate us.

I can't seem to find any books or info on heixi. Perhaps you have some links to where we can learn more about it?

 

[Some_guy]

Hello Jacky, I've read your 6 threads and I got to thank you for sharing your knowledge on the subject. I believe that you are right on many points and yeah, self-acceptance is crucially important.

However, I can't get to accept all my symptoms. (especially my blushing) Sometimes I put them to the side and 'go for it' without thinking much. I block the negative thoughts and try to be the social guy.

That's what I want to be and that's how I'd see myself if I didn't have those mental roadblocks: the social guy. So, one thing you said that I really didn't like was, to "accept to be shy". It sounds like the easy road to me. Sure, you can accept your symptoms but I do NOT want to be shy. I'm confident that I am not shy, but just self-conscious.

To illustrate this, I remember going to parties where the lights were extremely low and I was just so care-free and could go talk to anyone without much of a worry, because I knew blushing wasn't a problem in a low-light environment. Same thing during day-time after I exercised, I knew I was already red so the fear of blushing dropped.

If only I could accept my blushing, life would just be so much easier. My social anxiety wouldn't be completely gone but a big part of it would, I don't doubt it.

But I just can't get myself to do it :?

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi SomeGuy,

I am no expert, but I go by my experience. One great way to get past all our judgements and insecurities is to take the Mindful approach. What we do when we have a thought or some feeling comes-up, is to observe these thoughts and feelings as a detached and impartial observer.

The idea with Mindfulness is that 'I am not my thoughts or feelings' and through practising Mindfulness, we give room to all of our thoughts. Slowly -and sometimes immediately- these thoughts have less impact and significance, ironically through acceptance of them. And they get put into perspective with regards to ALL of who we are with all our many thoughts and feelings- we a multifaceted, complex creatures. And dropping judgement and not engaging in the need to order who we are (eg: "I am not shy" or "I am ...." ) we let who we are come naturally and we are no-longer slaves to our ideas about who we should be and we get ourselves out of the trap of repressing our emotions. ...so the idea is that if we give room to all our thoughts and feelings, these thoughts and feelings settle into balance on their own. And mindfulness can help us to 'see through' the illusory power and significance that our throughts and emotions can appear to have.

There is a spiritual saying: "What you resist persists, but what you look at disappears" ...I only understood just what this meant when I came across Mindfulness, and realised that 'what you look at' literally meant observation -and the impartial acceptance of a thought/condition/feeling- and that this is what brings such a thought/feeling down to size.
And it makes sense, because when we try to control thoughts/feelings , we often find ourselves stuck in a vicious circle and our "negative" thoughts get blown-out of perspective.

And if you are looking for a good self-help Mindfulness treatment- that is also free, has been set-up by a guy who himself recovered from social anxiety, and who gives good extra tips and free email access to himself in person- I recommend this site: www.mindfulrecovery.com
It is fairly easy to read through, but if you lack the time- go straight to the "Treatment" section and see if this appeals to you.

LMM

 

[Some_guy]

Hi SomeGuy,

I am no expert, but I go by my experience. One great way to get past all our judgements and insecurities is to take the Mindful approach. What we do when we have a thought or some feeling comes-up, is to observe these thoughts and feelings as a detached and impartial observer.

The idea with Mindfulness is that 'I am not my thoughts or feelings' and through practising Mindfulness, we give room to all of our thoughts. Slowly -and sometimes immediately- these thoughts have less impact and significance, ironically through acceptance of them. And they get put into perspective with regards to ALL of who we are with all our many thoughts and feelings- we a multifaceted, complex creatures. And dropping judgement and not engaging in the need to order who we are (eg: "I am not shy" or "I am ...." ) we let who we are come naturally and we are no-longer slaves to our ideas about who we should be and we get ourselves out of the trap of repressing our emotions. ...so the idea is that if we give room to all our thoughts and feelings, these thoughts and feelings settle into balance on their own. And mindfulness can help us to 'see through' the illusory power and significance that our throughts and emotions can appear to have.

There is a spiritual saying: "What you resist persists, but what you look at disappears" ...I only understood just what this meant when I came across Mindfulness, and realised that 'what you look at' literally meant observation -and the impartial acceptance of a thought/condition/feeling- and that this is what brings such a thought/feeling down to size.
And it makes sense, because when we try to control thoughts/feelings , we often find ourselves stuck in a vicious circle and our "negative" thoughts get blown-out of perspective.

And if you are looking for a good self-help Mindfulness treatment- that is also free, has been set-up by a guy who himself recovered from social anxiety, and who gives good extra tips and free email access to himself in person- I recommend this site: www.mindfulrecovery.com
It is fairly easy to read through, but if you lack the time- go straight to the "Treatment" section and see if this appeals to you.

LMM

Thank you for your post, and taking the time to write it. I will definitely go and take a look at the website

 

[JamesMorgan]

Jacky

I believe your intention to help is pure hearted, i think this is wonderful. I do not however agree with all the things you are saying. The very essence of what you are saying is important but is filled with other more contradictory statements which leave people open to misinterpretation. When you speak from direct experience, from the heart, you will not need to use such statements, it will be more powerful and people will get it more without wanting to challenge what you are saying.

There are many examples but this one illuminates a fundemental misunderstanding, for example you said: "Since you want to cure it, actually you still cannot accept it. Buddhism tells us: “all the troubles come out from desire”

If a person has a head ache, they can do everything they can to alleviate their suffering such as taking paracetamol but they must have a patient mind else they will create for themselves further undue mental suffering. So it's not the wanting to cure that is the problem, a person can do everything in their power to cure themselves, this is just common sense, it's the impotency of being powerless to stop their suffering that people cannot bear to accept. The experience becomes overwhelming.

Many social phobics take medication, quite rightly so because it helps. It's not a cure but helps in getting into a better mental state to change.

What you state makes no sense and this is not what Buddhism tells us. This illustrates a major misunderstanding of anxiety and acceptance.

You need desire to overcome your anxiety, else you wouldn't go to the doctor, you wouldn't even visit Social Phobia World. You need desire to be better. You need to cultivate the desire to accept anxiety and social phobia else you will not generate the motivation, courage or strength to actually do so.

If you just say "ok i accept this all" without understanding what mental actions perpetuate anxiety, you will not actually be accepting it fully at all. You'll be accepting the results but not ceasing to engage in the actions that continue fueling anxiety; The problem comes from unrealistic desires, which lead to negative actions which in turn lead to anxiety.

The desire to overcome anxiety is not an unrealistic desire, it is a positive desire and does not perpetuate anxiety. It is in fact very healthy to want/desire to overcome your anxiety. Many people though can be unrealistic in what they want/desire to achieve and so this results in non-acceptance within the scope of their mental capacity so they spiral into old habits of thinking. So they need to change their wants/desire and learn to accept their current state of being.

Which leads to what you go on to say:
"In the case of Social Phobia, I dare say, the very reason we get Social Phobia is that we have a desire to cure it or eradicate it, the very reason we have Social Phobia is that we cannot accept Social Phobia."

Not all desire is negative or bad. The desire to achieve enlightenment for example is a positive desire.

The actual desire which directly prevents us from accepting our anxiety is the desire to be free of suffering and mental pain. Now it seems a contradiction to say this because enlightenment for example is a state free of suffering and mental pain so what do i mean? We so strongly want rid of our pain, we cannot bear it - at current we cannot accept things so we continually engage in negativity - but without using our suffering/transforming it into positivity by way of acceptance and other methods there is no way we can overcome it. So we must use our experience of suffering to enhance our desire to transform and eventually overcome it. This gives us great strength and makes our life completely meaningful and every experience valuable.

At present, our desire to run/hide from our anxiety is actually stronger than our desire to transform/overcome our social phobia. All of this is an internal battle. So we waste our opportunity of using our social phobia to progress to better internal mental states, we see it more as a hindrance because it feels unpleasant. So if you weigh it up, we'd usually want to run from our anxiety, run from these situations because our desire to transform/overcome it is not as powerful. When the desire to transform/overcome is more powerful than our desire to be free of suffering and mental pain, then positivity fills our mind. Then it's like there is nothing to overcome, because we have used the experience positively to become a better person. We see it more in terms of positive challenges to initiate positive internal change. It then becomes enjoyable to enter situations which provoke our anxiety because we use it to build courage, confidence etc.

We can transform social phobia by changing our desire - these two desires then eventually align into a powerful positive desire, like two sides of the same coin, transforming suffering into acceptance to cure and eventually overcome the suffering of anxiety.

So although you are coming from the right angle, more specifically, you need to be able to distinguish between these two desires and understand we can realistically do all we can ie go to the doctors, get medicine, support etc then learn methods to accept it. The very message you are portraying may potentially arouse unrealistic desire because some things are not easy to accept. 'If all i have to do is accept, then why cant i accept' it's these sorts of wants/desires that are so deeply ingrained that knock confidence.

Social phobia and anxiety are also not 'YOU' as you state, this is also something you need to think more deeply about. If you identify yourself as negative thought such as anxiety, then you will find it difficult to realise your true nature. When you talk of surrendering, what do you surrender to? True surrendering means allowing your true nature to shine through, who you really are then actually appears, as if through the clouds of your dark thoughts the sun arises.

The more one gives, the less another maybe able to accept, so i will not continue. But i hope this message finds you well and at peace, in full acceptance.

Speak soon!

James

 

[delacratic]

When you talk of surrendering, what do you surrender to? True surrendering means allowing your true nature to shine through, who you really are then actually appears, as if through the clouds of your dark thoughts the sun arises.

Hi James,
I liked your post a lot, and while I find myself agreeing with Jacky, I enjoyed reading what you had to say, and agree with a lot of it.
I think it is very hard to not desire to be free from social anxiety. In that respect I agree. But you can't will the clouds away. You have to do your best to surrender to the fact that you have no control over them, and enjoy it when the sun comes out.

I like your metaphor of the clouds. For a long time I tried so hard to force my way through my anxiety, kind of stubbornly insisting that it wouldn't get the better of me - accepting it, but not accepting it, if you get me - and then really beating myself up when I freaked out in a bar or a public place. I went out in the rain, but blamed myself when I got wet.

I think that when Jacky quotes the Buddhist saying "all troubles come out from desire", I think it is hard to accept, because, for a Buddhist, this is totally true. Perhaps all of us who are not Buddhist struggle with this... I have been reading a bit about Buddhism, and I know whenever I read something like this I find it very hard indeed - I think "But I want some desire! I don't want to give up the desire for a woman, or for a friendship etc etc"
But, if I take what Jacky says to apply only to my social anxiety, I think it would mean that, yes, the desire to be "free" does impede me, because I cling so strongly to this image of freedom in my mind, that it becomes a source of anxiety itself. You said this yourself in your post; I also think that the reason desire for freedom cannot bring it is that social anxiety is already based on a normal healthy anxiety which everyone has and must have. But when I imagine myself anxiety free, I imagine just that: me walking into a room, totally carefree, not caring what people think (and yes, chatting up that pretty girl!). What I actually need to do is surrender to the fact that that is not me. It never will be. I can still walk through that room, and in fact, I am capable of talking to that girl(!). I have legs, and I have a mouth. I also have anxiety. It's totally up to me. If I accept the fact that I AM nervous about walking here, or talking to this or that person, I can surrender to the feeling I have, and I believe that this is the start of healing. I can be anxious and talk. I can be anxious and walk. If that's all I can do, so be it. It's better than not talking and not walking because my desire to be perfect won't allow me anything else.
So, I think time for a change of tack: surrender. Surrender to the fact that this feeling is unpleasant, but, it is not going to kill me, despite what my heart rate might be telling me. And if this time, I'm unable to do the talking or the walking, surrender to the fact that it's because I'm really goddam anxious. And that's ok. No more beating oneself up for not being perfect.
And no more beating oneself up for being anxious! It's totally normal.
It's only when we don't surrender that it becomes abnormal, and out of proportion.

And now I have a choice. Do I let this feeling in me that tells me you'll think I'm an idiot and totally disagree with everything I say control me? Do I delete this without posting it?

Or do I surrender to the fact that actually I cannot control that. I also cannot control my anxiety about how this message will be received. If I try and force myself calm, or tell myself it's ok, all it'll do is legitimise the anxiety because I'm giving it power. So no, I surrender to the fact that I'm anxious. And I submit this piece of crap anyway!

 

[phoenix1]

I was blown away by Jamesmorgan's post. It was incredible and it certainly opened my eyes. I had to read it several times and couldn’t stop thinking about everything he said.

He’s absolutely right that there are really two distinct desires. There’s the desire to stop the pain and suffering or in other words the focus on trying to do anything you can do to just stop feeling so shy or scared or anxious. But then there’s also the desire to get better. Where the focus is directly on the joy of getting better and the benefits of such.

Now the 1st focus is what directly impacts anxiety in a bad way. Its anxiety feeding anxiety. Its what jacky is talking about when he says surrender to it because its impossible to willfully change it.

The 2nd focus is on the joy and hope of getting better. This is taping into the opposite of anxiety. This will never hurt anxiety and is actually a large if not a biggest part of getting through social anxiety according to Jamesmorgan and I have to agree with that too.

The distinction that Jamesmorgan made is absolutely brilliant.

Now the problem with what Jacky says is that you need to surrender to everything without making any distinction.

That is really bad, to be blunt.

If you stop the desire to get better..the desire for all the positive aspects of social life..then you stop your ability to get better.

The way jacky is explaining it..people will confuse the two very different desires and block their own ability to get better (or atleast not cater to it). They may minimize anxiety, but the likelihood that they fall back into their old patterns is high without the other side of your mind taking the drivers seat.

Surrendering to the desire to stop pain and suffering can lower anxiety, but the distinction needs to be made still.

Jacky’s approach is all about minimizing anxiety in one broad stroke that doesn’t make any distinctions. Jamesmorgan says that its at the point where the 2nd desire is greater than the 1st desire that we switch it around in our minds and we get better. That is beyond brilliant in my mind and rings true.

You can always work on minimizing anxiety in a proper way (full surrendering is not the proper way in my opinion), but you also need the other desire to switch it around and make what was once negative a positive thing. Removal or minimizing anxiety won’t really make it positive in itself.

 

[delacratic]

I think that all of us are saying actually pretty similar things, but from slightly different viewpoints, and i think it is all valid, and interesting (and exciting!).
However:

Surrendering to the desire to stop pain and suffering can lower anxiety, but the distinction needs to be made still.

I don't think I agree with this, and I think maybe you've misunderstood or misquoted Jacky here? Jacky didn't advocate surrendering to the desire to stop pain and suffering, but surrendering to the pain and suffering, the anxiety, itself.

He said:
surrender to your Social Phobia, saying to yourself, “OK, you win. I lose, I don’t want to struggle with you again. Accept it, accept it not for curing it, accept it because you despair of curing it. Even if the Social Phobia will accompany you for the rest of your life, you don’t care about it because you have no way to cure it, “no way” is the only way out.

and I think "I don't want to struggle with you again" is similar to what both James and Phoenix are saying... Its removing the desire to reduce suffering (the struggle).

I don't think Jacky is saying we need to remove all desire, although I can see that his use of the quote may indicate this (and maybe I'm wrong, maybe he is saying this). But, I think the quote is pretty relevant - trouble does come from desire - but both trouble and desire are natural parts of life.

I agree that to not want to move on, to not desire to overcome your phobia, is not gonna happen. (I also think that this desire to overcome is not distinct from the desire to reduce suffering - they are linked, not seperate - we want to overcome because we are suffering) I think we need to accept that it is in our nature to want to overcome, to want to 'better' ourselves. It's also in our nature to worry and be nervous. A phobia, though, is an exaggeration of a normal, natural response, and I think that surrendering to our suffering could help it return to normal, non-phobic levels. If we accept we'll never not-be-anxious, surrender to anxiety, then we allow the anxiety to exist, to flow exactly as it should - because it should, we'd not be human without it.

 

[phoenix1]

First off..surrendering to the desire to stop pain and suffering is the same thing as surrendering to pain and suffering itself. Thats the whole point. The desire to change suffering is an anxiety response in itsellf. The more you try to change it directly like that, the more anxiety you will receive. The desire is anxiety. They are interchangable and that is the reason why surrendering actually works.

It is very distinct from the desire to overcome and be better. That is not an anxiety response at all. That is the opposite of anxiety. That is the joy of being a better person. The focus is completely different and they do two completely different things. One will create more anxiety, the other will create 'good desire' to help overcome certain things.

The whole point is that we dont have enough good desire to overcome it, rather we have a massive amount of desire to overcome the suffering. See the difference?

But, I think the quote is pretty relevant - trouble does come from desire - but both trouble and desire are natural parts of life.

"Trouble" comes from desire that is focused on trouble itself...That is focused on anxiety. Thats the distinction again. Trouble does not come from all desire.

I don't think Jacky is saying we need to remove all desire, although I can see that his use of the quote may indicate this (and maybe I'm wrong, maybe he is saying this).

I've read enough to know that he wants acceptance and surrendering of everything. Symptoms, traits, OCD, depression and anxiety. He makes absolutely no distinction of anything. I could list several more reasons why blind acceptance can be bad. Proper acceptance is so important to help lower those expectations and unrealistic desires. It just has to be done right in my opinion.

 

[delacratic]

Hi Phoenix,

I agree with this comment totally:

The desire to change suffering is an anxiety response in itsellf. The more you try to change it directly like that, the more anxiety you will receive.

Which is why I think when you say:

First off..surrendering to the desire to stop pain and suffering is the same thing as surrendering to pain and suffering itself.

I think you mean the same thing as I do. I just think we're using different terms. I'll try and explain my viewpoint:
--I think "surrendering to the desire to stop pain and suffering" means that one would give in to the desire - namely doing what that desire compels you to do, which would be to fight the pain and suffering - and like you say, "the desire to change suffering is an anxiety response in itself". And I totally agree - like I said, anxiety is completely natural - it's purpose is to compel us to change suffering.
--I think "surrendering to pain and suffering itself" is simply giving up and experiencing the pain and suffering, without trying to change it
And I do think that Jacky hit the nail on the head here. Fighting cannot work, that is what got us here in the first place. I agree with you that not-desiring full-stop is not the answer, but

The whole point is that we dont have enough good desire to overcome it, rather we have a massive amount of desire to overcome the suffering. See the difference?

Actually, I don't see the difference :? . Desire to overcome it vs. desire to overcome suffering?

And I think that trouble does come from desire. Whether it's the dissappointment of missing out on a job you want, losing a lover or simply having a glass of water that tastes bad when you're thirsty. The fact is that by having desires, you will always be disappointed sooner or later. Obviously there are different scales of reaction. I feel that a phobic reaction is out of proportion to the level that everything feels life or death. I'm sure you've identified that in your own reactions. But why? Why do I feel mortally threatened when in the company of strangers?

What do you see as the difference between "blind acceptance" and "proper acceptance"? You say proper acceptance helps "lower expectations and unrealistic desires"? I do agree with what you say about not totally giving up your desire, but this "unrealistic desire" sounds a lot like damage limitation - that you control what you desire so you only desire what is not unrealistic? Surely the most important thing is to deal with- i.e. accept - disappointment.

Acceptance surely must be more important than "proper desire"? If I am willing to accept then my desire could be completely off the chart, but I would not be troubled.

What do you think? It'd be good to hear your thoughts! Keep them coming...

 

[Jacky1980]

Here I must emphasize first that what I have written here is a general direction towards complete recovery for you to do self-help, this is all I can do, Acceptance is the last crucial step everyone of us should take towards complete recovery, before that there are many steps, I will detail them one by one soon, for those severe sufferers, I sincerely suggest your taking every step carefully and do it under the guidance of a professional therapist. As I said before, maybe not in this forum, if we could really accept ourselves and complete recovered immediately after reading this article, we would not be like what we are today.



To Phoenix,
As I said before, you are a man good at analysis, I completely understand you now, now I will try my best to give a satisfactory answer. All of us, whether the social phobia sufferers or the normal people, instinctively we don’t want to make mistakes around others, we surely want to look as good as possible before others. From your reply, I can see your problem is that you know the Real Acceptance is the only way out, at least the crucial step, but you were unable to accept all of yourself because if you do now, you tend to suffer a lot because of your sensitivity and high requirements of yourself. If you surrender now, you tend to blush more, be more anxious suffice it to say, show more symptoms of SP before people, which is extremely difficult for you to accept, right? Please correct me if I said something wrong.

Because I am not a self-help person, I completely recovered under the guidance of Mr.Heixi, so what I can tell you is the technique Mr. Heixi used on me.

The earlier steps of Heixi Therapy system is mostly western therapies, for example, Cognition Therapy, Behavior Therapy, Exposure Therapy and NLP etc. Here I will say something about the difference between east therapy and west therapy, and I will detail that later by starting a new topic. Although the western therapy cannot make you complete recover, because it never touches the core of the problem, namely complete and real acceptance of yourself, but its advantage is that it can quickly remove or control the symptoms and make you temporarily comfortable, take Hypnotism as an example, I used to feel very relaxed and seemed afraid of nothing when one session of hypnotism is completed, but shortly after that, I fell back to what I was and another session might be needed, the cognition therapy session is the same, I felt I was quite confident when one or two session is done, but the effect could not last long. As for east therapy, such as Morita Therapy, Buddhism and Taoism, all the Oriental Philosophies, they can remove the root and make us completely free, but the disadvantage is that their process is very long, namely between understanding and acceptance, there is a long way to go, and between acceptance and complete recovery, there is another long way to go, for many severe sufferers or many multi-condition sufferers like me (SP,OCD and Depression ), it is quite difficult for them to understand and practice “Acceptance” at the very beginning, even if they do understand it and try to practice, they cannot tolerate the outburst of long inhibited symptoms, because we all used to inhibit it, when we suddenly give up the fight, the long suppressed negative power will suddenly burst out, although we may know well that if we just let the “fire” burn without fueling it, it will go out at last, but meanwhile we cannot tolerate the suffering. Therefore, a combination of east and west therapy is a must. In Heixi Therapy, Mr. Heixi would usually apply western therapy first, different therapy or technique on different person and different symptoms, CBT, Exposure or Desensitization, all in all, the purpose is to alleviate the symptoms, meanwhile, he would tell the sufferers some piece of advice from the Buddhism and Taoism, gradually making them realize the necessity of acceptance, then he asks them to practice and review in daily life, then gave him the feedback, upon the feedback, he would know their state, barrier they have met and what the next step should be, and he would correct their problem and take the next step, maybe continue to use the western therapy to alleviate the symptom, maybe tell them some more about the oriental philosophy, it depends, and then, still ask them to practice in daily life and gave him the feedback. So the general mode is counseling---practice---feedback---correction---counseling---practice again. So the sufferer is gradually pulled out of the swamp of SP and other neurosis, when their symptoms have been reduced to a certain level, Mr. Heixi would tell them to practice “complete acceptance”, the crucial factor in the complete recovery, after practice it for some time, they would completely say goodbye to their past. I remember that you used to worry about the depression sufferer, at that time, I failed to make myself well understood, sorry for that. Please don’t worry about that, I was also a depression sufferer, for the depression sufferer, an intensive use and long process of Cognition Therapy in the earlier stage is a must. So, I will stop here, I don’t know whether it is the answer you need, more question, please feel free to raise it to me, and I will post more and more article about Heixi Therapy.
(to be continued)

 

[JamesMorgan]

All,

Great posts! Just wanted to add:

Change

Everything is changing, all the time. When we grasp strongly at things being a certain way we find change hard to accept. This friction or tension within our mind magnifies our anxiety.

Control

We seek to manipulate the external world to accommodate our inner world of feelings which run out of control. We do everything we can externally to avoid anxiety, avoiding people, meetings etc because we do not understand our inner world and the connection.

Entering the inner world of acceptance

When we allow ourself to enter this inner world of acceptance we do not need to fight/go against the grain of what’s going on externally because we realize it’s like a reflection of our inner world, perceived and experienced on the inside. Between the portal of our inner world and external world we somehow get lost and we get out of balance so inwardly we are flooded by much confusion and we feel anxious. Yet externally, it’s just a different appearance.

We can control these external world appearances to some extent but the source of our control must be from within, then, nothing can throw us off balance. Like a flag pole blowing in the harsh wind, centred. This control from within begins by wishing to accept, learning to let go of wanting to obsessively control our external environment, ironically, we then feel in control our life then becomes natural, more flowing.

Entering the inner world of acceptance is a place of trust and knowing, it’s not a physical location. Knowing that whatever appears to us is just an appearance, we can remain in a place of peace within, calm, stillness within, whatever we see on the movie screen of our life.

I feel an important point is that we can change for the better, we don’t have to just lie back and say this is it and grit our teeth, we can happily accept what appears regardless of how things are on the outside but can do everything in our power to bring about positive change. By doing so we take positive steps to meander our way through this illusive world yet understanding it’s in a state of perpetual change.

When we cultivate the wish to accept, internally we let go, we accept the invitation to our inner world and we are, internally, naturally protected from unpleasant feelings. Enlightenment is inner light, we all have this inner light, which actually outshines the darkness of anxiety, we have to want to experience that, we have to wish to accept the inner turbulence so that we can enter our own world of acceptance. This can be our sanctuary, our place of refuge, why grasp at momentary appearances arising then disappearing, we can let it all glide by.

This inner world of acceptance is like a palace made of blissful light, anxiety and other painful feelings are like dark smoke that surround this palace, only by wishing to go beyond that smoke and moving through it can we realize what’s been there all along, we could just not see it. This is like how people view their self, immersed in the thick smoke of darkness not seeing what is within. They never really know who they are and why they are here because of this thick negativity clouding the light within. There is also nothing to be afraid of. Once we see that our feelings are what we try to escape from, other people then cease to appear to make us frightened, we realize they never really did frighten us, we move beyond the smoke into our peaceful palace.

I also feel that because people so want rid of their painful feelings they will do anything to try to cure them selves of it. This impatience, does not allow one to really see what is actually happening within. Accepting allows us the space and clarity to investigate what’s really happening. There is a difference between positive effort to reduce and abandon anxiety and fighting against our inner feelings wanting to be rid of them. Two completely different set of effects arise if they can be clearly distinguished.

Many people here are like anxiety researchers, they just have to know how to overcome it, stop it, this is great and is really helpful as long as this does not in turn cause obsessive over thinking/need for control of external/planning and so on - basic non-acceptance.

James

 

[cosmosis]

Alright my question is this. If we define our success in life by how well we do or probably more importantly how much we dont fail, then isnt suffering secondary to our goals in life? How do we accept and submit to external control when we are told that we are failures in life if we give in?

How in the world do you change that fundemental belief that we can't fail. If everything you are is based off the idea that failure in something is failure in everything and you are completely worthless after that. It might be a crazy belief, but its probably as strong as any religious belief in others I see.

Full acceptance to me means changing who I am completely. It would probably take 50 years to rewrite my brain to let go and not worry if I'm going to fail. Failure is far worse than suffering. If I let go and give in, I may find myself less anxious and more peaceful, but a failure. I would probably end up being more successful that way...atleat until I tried to prevent failure again, because that is who I am.

I want to be that flagpole that sways in the wind, but I hear my dad's voice in my head and I become rabid doing everything in my power to change the things around me. To make sure I dont fail him..myself..the world. I know bloodly well that sets me up for failure in itself. It doesnt matter though, as long as I do everything in my power to try to stop failure.

Maybe failure doesnt truly matter in itself...its that I let failure happen (that is the only true failure)...and thats what destroys me everytime.

 

[Jacky1980]

To James,
I admit I have a mistake in writing "all the troubles come from disire", I just literally translate into English, without explaining more. Because all the article and expression in Buddhism is so abstract in Chinese, literally translation may cause misunderstanding. Here I must emphasize that here disire means "stubborn disire which cannot be realized", in my view, I think all the disire, at the very beginning, no positive or negative, if we feel anxious, feel shy or timid, we instinctively want to eliminate it, all the normal people want, we will take whatever action we can, but normal people are not perfectionlistic as we are, if they consicously or subconsciously feel these symptoms cannot be eliminated, they would easily give in,so they will not fueling theire symptoms, and those symptoms will disappear finally, that means they accept them and they are gone, but we are perfectionalistic, we never surrender, we think we mush free ourselves from those symptoms, we think these symptoms are abnormal, we persevere in fighting a war we can never win, so we have a stubborn desire, like that if we lost our leg, even if we know we cannot grow another leg, we never give up the wish. It is easy to understand that physical defect can never be changed, but it is difficult for stubborn people like us to realize that mental defect also have the similar feature. those anxiety, depression, we think they are demons, but they are our friends, they are essentially water, they just come to the boiling point. We repel them more, the more exaggerated they become, finally it is uncontrollable. So accept them, they will come back to normal. but it is a long process, and many recurrence will be waiting for you ahead, so that's why without Mr.Heixi's treatment and guidance, I would never have completely recovered.

To cosmosis
Full acceptance doesn't mean we stop improving us, it is 2 different concepts. Take myself as an example, I accept myself, and completely recovered, but I studay and work hard every day, dreaming of becomiong the world-best psychotherapist, I improve my behavior every day to make more people like me, every what I am desiring is my success, not elimination of my symptom, I accept them, so they disappear finally.

 

[Jacky1980]

"Heixi Therapy Counseling Post" is stickied, please state there your symptom and problem. The chief counselor in our counseling center will try to help you out.