Compassion

[LittleMissMuffet]

I know how awful it is to have social anxiety and/or be socially isolated, but I was wondering if people are able to notice anything -excuse this annoyingly optimistic word!...ahem! (#!!*!)... positive (there I said it!) things that are coming out of your time of sufferring and isolation...?

So, I am talking about things like compassion and empathy for just how much hell and sufferring a person can go through.
And, whilst wisdom and knowing what to do are great, strengths like compassion and empathy are like the fuel that propels you towards freedom and happiness. -By this, I mean, with compassion I think a person is guaranteed to succeed in being happy.

So, do you find yourself seeing people who are down-and-out, marginalised, the so-called "losers" of society (eg, the homeless, the drug addicted, those who simply struggle in life etc) -do you see them and think more thoughts like: "They must have a great load to carry", "All people at every stage in their life are trying their best", "No one is stupid or weak or lazy".

I've met people whose attitudes to the down-and-out are more like...
"They are lazy good-for-nothings", "They are stupid because they fail", "They are inferior and lower than me and most people because they are so behind me and most others".

...Anyhow, you get the jist I'm sure. My point is just to enquire whether you see strengths like compassion and understanding and empathy and wisdom also, growing in you?

(Again, I think that compassion is more important than wisdom which is more about the intellect. ...I'm not certain of this, it is just that compassion and things of the heart seem much more essential than the intellect.)

 

[Thelema]

No, I think more along the lines of "get your crap together and don't expect help from me". Tough love, I guess. If somebody asks for helps or is in a lot of trouble I'll help them and if they have a problem I'll offer advice, but if you don't take my advice and do something you know is wrong I care much less about your situation.

I've found letting yourself get hurt just because somebody else has problems, they refuses to fix, and tries to lay a burden on you is total crap.

I'm sure I missed the point of this thread and I'm hijacking it.

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood right now

 

[LION]

personally, i don't go through the world, feeling compassion for every person i see, we're all son of bitches and at the same time good persons (im inagining, an alcholic who beats his wife and then he gives $200 to buy stuff, it's like a way of compensating, i dont have SA anyways, im just very shy towards females, due rejections and shit.

from isolation (involuntary isolation, i have not met anything good at all) i remember when i wasn't so sad, that i used to get along. but i was always shy and to this point is still haunts me.

in some ways i became a 'sociopath' when my pain was so big i had to either go away or choose the 'fuck the world' attitude, that i'm sure many in here as well have developed as a mirror-mirror equation.

To me, there are two ways; either you become compassionate out of pain (like jesus, etc.) or either you become antosocial (Which means you close yourself off to any possibility) in a way is self.destruction.

i'm compassionate of sociopaths, cause i know they¡re pain is greater, the process of feeling love again is hard, i got to develop emotions again (they closed off due pain).

i've thought all of it 'they're stupid cause they fail' simply to show my pain. and even nowadays there's this friend of mine involved in drugs so badly that the guy has lost his mind, and he's just, i don't know, i don't have sympathy for him, it's his life and i'm no mother theresa (i despise some people on t.v.) still i like him and he can go with good conversations when he's not fucked up as hell. i don't worry cause it's his life. if he want to fuck it up, who i am to say so and so.

So, i'm trying to find love again. the process between sociopathy and coming back was and it's painful. what i've gained is that sociopaths have a deep-wish to be loved..imagine a serial killer talking with corpses just so he could talk with someone..it's very very sad.

So no, i don't go through the world feeling compassion for every bum in the streets, or even SA'ers. im trying to be genuine with what i do.

IF i order a burger, i just do it and i thank the fat guy who serves it, he hasn't done anything to me. i just say thank you and i eat the burger, i buy a soda and i say thank you and sometimes don't even that, i dont think about it, i just want a soda and that's all.

IS true..that emotions are by far more important than knowledge in my opinion..as a sociopath i didn't felt anything and i mocked people without reason, i felt anxious and then i felt sad that i coulnd't control it, very sad.. it was like a automatic response through boredom and pain (when you're a sociopath you don't feel consciouss) even now i feel empty and blank.

to your stuff, i can see empathy and compassion as ways to open yourself
just remember not everyone has been in pain and this results on idiocy IMO. or the ammount of pain is very different. some people were abused, some other simply can't stand a job.

I say if you love, take pride on it, if you say 'gtfo' take pride on it.
i'm working towards developing a consciousness (i dont have any) and feeling love again, or at least feeling something (im not a cuter and i dont do drugs, so it's hard to live trying to feel)i consider some people to be idiots and other's to be ok. and my greatest sympathy goes to the devil cause he's in pain (and i know the devil does not want my sympathy)

So when people act like a jerk they're simply showing their pain IMO.
it's the both sides of pain, you either feel compassion or venge you'r miserys. and the latter is always the worse., well hope it helps. some people are ok.

I do write a lot for not having a conscioussness hu? maybe im just bad triping..:? I WANT to FEEL love, more than LOVE someone. cheers. i enjoy your posts, you seem pretty normal. well, i've gtg-

 

[Thelema]

I'm sure Satan hates the consoled and the consoler. I hate being consoled...it makes me feel smaller than before

 

[LION]

there's no place for entimentality in deep sadness..it's like trying to say to jeffrey dhammer 'life is great..isn't it??' it comes as arrogant as hell..and yet i can't help feeling sympathy for him, it's too much sad.

IF you ever feel like blocking emotions due pain (Sometimes its automatic, people being raped on childhood, rejected, manipulated- remember the path only leads to an empty spirit.

Satan hates anyone who's coming to him, he sayd yeah, im like you i dont give a fuck..but even him..he's waiting for his turn, so don't get the idea that Satan likes you, cause he doesn't- He deep down..very deep down..he'd like to be hugged and to FEEL LOVE-

PFFT IDK. I can barely type, i feel like im talking to myself. when you'r so small..like a grain of sand after being rejected.. suddenly there's this 'evil' part of you that come to surface, a strong illusion..to take care of the submissive..but he's destroying you. suddenly you get this confidence..empty confidence..and you close off forever. (i'm trying to get the fuck out of here)

what we want is to be truly reciprocated, not being consoled IMO. at least not when the pain is greater. i don't have a consciousness..it closed off due pain, so im not anxious..yet..yet i feel dead. 'protect me from what i want'- anyways i whole agree with the shit.

 

[LION]

the best is to develop a consciousness, and don't matter what you've been through, you can always go back to your passions, to your LOVE, anyways this went off topic..i dont' want to shred the thread, im still shy and i think empathy is a strength, some people are ok. im tryong to FEEL LOVE. everytime you see a movie, and cry, feel glad, or everytime you jump around and sing..i miss Jodie so badly. anyfuckingways.

 

[Thelema]

It seems to me the people that overcame the most shit in their lives and went on, aren't people that tried to ignore the bad thing that happened to them. They went on in spite of it and not from rejecting that it ever happened. Like the story of the 300 Spartans. Those guys knew they were going to die and they accepted it. They didn't try and convince themselves that they were going for a stroll in the park.

I sometimes envy the drug addict with the messed up life. You know why? Because they're LIVING. At least they are living and not just sitting around. I'd rather take the chance of stupid mistakes than be afraid of doing anything. Like the bodybuilder that takes steroids. Should he be looked down on for doing that or does he deserve a little respect for sacrificing his health for an ideal and wanting to be the best and not letting anything get in his way? Now I'm envying drug addicts and guys that shoot needles of steroids in their butt...I must be losing it

 

[SilentStranger]

I don't know if its my SP or my personality, but I definitely do feel compassion towards people who are down and out.

Sure my situation might not be bad as them, but going through the problems of SP, I can feel whats its like to fall into a hole and not being able to crawl out. I hear every body, say 'just get over your shyness' etc. I would imagine I would be the same to tell these people to get a job or get over it. It doesn't help.

I suppose it doesn't take too much put you over the edge. I suppose I worry that would I end up like that.

And Yes... I feel empathy is a positive and if its heightened by our situation, yes I suppose its one of the few positives of our condition.

-SS

"We've all seen a man at the liquor store beggin' for your change
The hair on his face is dirty, dread-locked, and full of mange
He asks a man for what he could spare, with shame in his eyes
"Get a job you ****ing slob," is all he replies
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in his shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to sing the blues

Then you really might know what it's like... "

-Everlast "What It's Like"
http://www.anysonglyrics.com/lyrics/e/everlast/whatits.htm

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Thelema and Lion,

I realise and can relate to your frustration regarding the issue of having compassion.

Yet, looking at that sentence again and you can see how it is a contradiction -the idea I had about compassion was pretty simple; being frustrated about how hard life is, how few people are around to offer real compassion etc.
-And all I am saying is that because of this same frustration with finding any genuine love and respect and with finding, and just with getting free from life's miseries and truly conquering a problem or dependency ...well, all of this frustration is actually the reason FOR compassion.

Anyhow, basically I was saying that if we look at our own life with our struggle and our sufferring - it is plain to see that what we are faced with is quite simply hard. The fact that we are trying are best and always were, proves that all people who suffer and struggle deserve compassion.
Just like us, they find life hard.

And it is funny because Jesus said: "Happy those who know they are poor in spirit. The Kingdom of Heaven is theirs"
...in other words, the reality is that life IS hard and those who have the experience and appreciation of knowing it as this way, are those who are closer to being genuine if not in fact genuine already.

Thelema -what I get from your post is that you are frustrated with false compassion. I think that this is wise. I have also met with people who are phoney in their compassion for others and, in a way at least, it IS more insulting than if they never pretended or attempted "reach out" to you.

The only thing is that, here again is proof that most people don't have the strength that you are required to have -they themselves cannot "make it". They are weak and their lack of -genuine- compassion proves this.
So all this is is more evidence that people deserve compassion -because so few can truly handle life when it gets tough.

And when you write: 'I think more along the lines of "Get your crap together and don't expect help from me"' ....well, my understanding is that you are compensating for your experiences with phoney compassion -which truly is patronizing and is done by a person who sees the one they are 'helping' as being inferior. This is false compassion and it is not the real thing because the person practising it is still stuck within the concerns of their own ego -they are still acting from concerns about themselves, what they could stand to lose, etc.

In a way, thinking that "Get your crap together and don't expect help from me" is not altogether the wrong way to think. Although, the word "crap" tends to imply that the person is inferior or a loser when in fact the whole point is that there simply is no such thing. So, perhaps look out for this and make the connection between people with 'false compassion' who try to help and yet also view the person they are helping in this kind of way. ...I hope that you don't mind me telling you this. But true compassion is hard to get, you see. I am not sure whether I have real compassion now. But why not be compassionate with yourself as well -and say, oh well, life is hard and I can't expect to be strong just like that. THe whole point is that until we change our judgements and our perceptions of the world, like our judgement that a person with this trait is a loser for example, it is impossible to change the situation.

So, if a person ceases to see themselves as inferior or their position as making them inferior -then they can change their situation. Until then, the person is helpless. Getting false compassion is getting this judgement put on you -that you are inferior and helpless. So it is giving "help" in a way that makes a person "helpless".

Your idea about letting someone else get their ACT (rather than 'crap') together (the point I make is the anger is left out when the word 'crap' is substituted with something more like 'act') is actually not bad. Because this comes with some appreciation or understanding that the individual is in fact not at all helpless (except of course when they themselves have not yet been able to see and believe this).

So, even if you are not perfect, I think I can see the point that you are making and it is a very good one.
It is about not giving "help" or assistance when all that this does in fact is add on to the person's feelings (that they could only be facing and dealing with) that they are inferior and incapable.

The only other thing to note is that it is hard to have genuine compassion. And I have noticed about my self that sometimes I "try" more than I should. What I mean with this is that it isn't something that a person can fake. Although, I do think that certain outlooks can still be adopted to get a positive result -at least to some extent.
For one thing: when I notice that I have been a bit of a try-hard with being compassionate or I have noticed others being phoney with this, I do get angry to some extent, but in my better moments I figure: Oh well, life is hard and when it comes down to it, even if this person is pretty fake, they are trying their best still. Either they have genuine intentions but don't have the wisdom yet to know and admit to when they can't achieve something, or they are more selfish and insecure themselves about the same problem. Either way though, they are weak.

So you can be compassionate about not having compassion.

LION- That last sentence is kind of like how you say you have compassion for sociopaths, who, by definition lack things like compassion and empathy.

And you also mentioned about having real compassion. And this seems essentially right to me- because I figure that a pesron can only really have a certain general amount of compassion for everyone and every different situation, and then more compassion for situations that they themselves have struggled with and learnt from.

I think you're saying something similar to Thelema. About being genuine and also about being wary of being false(ly compassionate).

And again, you seem also to be making the point about not being a 'try hard'. I think that this is basically correct - a person cannot fake compassion. Not if it is the real thing.

So I guess that, at least for the most part, compassion is something that just develops in a person without them trying to get it so much.

It just comes from life experience and hardships.

And I guess also then, we could say that all of us with social anxiety could only be developing compassion (whether we mean to or not). And that even if this takes time and the road to getting the real genuine thing (with no weakness or holes in it) -we still, nonetheless are making our way towards this goal. Even if (to a large extent at least) we can't really manipulate the world or our life to get it -it just happens naturally.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Actually Thelema, I wanted to say something else also.

I didn't have the guts to just say it upfront but I think I have now...

It is not so bad that I lack compassion. I mean, look at me, I still suffer from major isolation and cannot get my act together. But that is how it is - this battle is not easy and life really is hard. And my lack of strength proves that I run out of compassion. (but also, a person needs more compassion ie more strength -the two words are very similar- when their obstacle is a bigger and harder one ...so no need to feel bad or inferior at all).

And I figure that that is how it is then that is how it is.

And even if you are not perfect compassion wise (how many people are though!) you can console yourself with the understanding that it is human to begin with no strength. In fact, a person has no strength to start off with -being that strength which is real, and which lasts, is developed etc...

And then listen to what Jesus tells you: "Happy those who know they are poor in spirit. THe Kingdom of HEaven is theirs"
...not so bad then to know that you are weak and lack compassion. It seems to be exactly what a person needs to accept about themselves in order to get to have something.

Have you read those sayings of Jesus about how those who know they are weak have the Kingdom of HEaven, and those who suffer and cry and are now persecuted have a great reward for them -and that those who laugh now will cry later.
...What does this say? -It says that you are no weaker than others and that at this time you are in the act of developing strength that is real strength and that will mean that you will leave everybody else behind.
Even though you struggle or rather perhaps BECAUSE you struggle.

You just wait: I happen to believe that you could very well become teh wonderful human being that I suspect deep down is you intention all along. I think that this is part of who you want to be -someone with compassion for others (that is the hunch that I get).
Don't give up -what I have read tells me that you are doing what you need to be doing to get there. And that in fact, you already are there right now just because your intentions are pure like everybody elses are -and because you are as strong and as weak as everybody else is!

You may want to read information on this subject: "The Dark Night of the Soul". It talks about stages -in particular the stage of great self doubt- that a person goes through before they create themselves as they want to be. IT will give you encouragement. IT talks also about how the ego in fact desires to be good and compassionate and enlightened, and then goes on to say that in fact the ego cannot accomplish these things. That -something like- only when the ego realises that it is impossible for it to acquire such enlightenment- that then the way is open to get it. That nature does it for a person. ..I don't understand much about it but it is something like this.

 

[LION]

So you can be compassionate about not having compassion.

.

It's more like as a sociopath you struggle to give a shit, inverse to Sa'er who struggle to not give a shit. im trying to give a shit on life, and people who suffer, but after all i've been through i find hard..some people are ok.
so it's frustation. i have sympathy for sociopaths, simpyl cause i know theyr pain is greater than someone else (Emotionally speaking) what are the drives that lead you to simply shut off emotions. however sociopaths could give a damn about my sympathy, nor so, Sa'ers, people, etc. sociopaths find annoying that you tell'em that you love'em, or you've got friends, in some ways they're ok, except it's a loveless world.

LION- That last sentence is kind of like how you say you have compassion for sociopaths, who, by definition lack things like compassion and empathy..

. i don't believe in 'nature' cases (nor sa'er, nor sociopaths, evert mental illness was carried by nature IMO (of course some people might be more predisposed to handle stress and that shit) a sociopath, lost his soul at some point, and even if they come back, they're still socially retarded (more so than Sa'ers cause you don't give a crap, so you've got to FAKE, and it's frustating as hell) IMO.

And you also mentioned about having real compassion. And this seems essentially right to me- because I figure that a pesron can only really have a certain general amount of compassion for everyone and every different situation, and then more compassion for situations that they themselves have struggled with and learnt from.

compassion to me is puting yourself ABOVE other people's, i dont like jesus, he could have saved his ass. i'm not as compassionate as jesus (however i reckon he didn't let anyone tell him who to be, except at the very end he said 'father why have you abandoned me' so even him felt dissapointed IMO. im not as naive as john lennon, i know wars are there. and i won't kill myself out of self-servong guilt, like martyrs such as dead rock-stars followed by a mass of wannabes. in some senses i got the aggresivity to survive-

people with compassion seem to be ok, i mean i don't think there's 100% compassion, excet maybe ghandi or mother theresa..or enlightened people..they somehow put themselves above us (in their minds of course, just like the sociopath), and thus feel compassion that they're in heaven and feel sad that there's people who are not, i could give a damn about people who are on wars, i reckon is cause im hearthless. (or antosocial, or schizoid, btw: you come off as schizoid (no offense, you seem quite normal, some schizoids are highly compassionate and highly bright- (they're however quite sceptic (hmm atheist) so maybe is just your writing style..i like-

I think you're saying something similar to Thelema. About being genuine and also about being wary of being false(ly compassionate).

sociopaths are perhaps the most genuine persons by far, except their mask is that of schedenfrauden, they're genuine in the sense they dont give a damn, it's a loveless world. (can you imagine it? getting 100 girls and feeling blank??)

And again, you seem also to be making the point about not being a 'try hard'. I think that this is basically correct - a person cannot fake compassion. Not if it is the real thing..

yep, it's hard to tell what's genuine..if you feel emotions and feelings, who iam to say that what you're saying it's not genuine? if i feel blank? if a schizophrenics sees shadows? if a monk feels asexual? genuine flux.

So I guess that, at least for the most part, compassion is something that just develops in a person without them trying to get it so much..

yes, compassion is a path after frustation and pain, is a way of giving up on revenge. it's a state of mind, and it's somehow a revenge IMO. you don't attack, so every person who attacks you WIll feel bad (cause deep down, even sociopaths are good peoples, it feels worse to give shit to someone who's ok, that to someone who acts like a jerk)

It just comes from life experience and hardships.

And I guess also then, we could say that all of us with social anxiety could only be developing compassion (whether we mean to or not). And that even if this takes time and the road to getting the real genuine thing (with no weakness or holes in it) -we still, nonetheless are making our way towards this goal. Even if (to a large extent at least) we can't really manipulate the world or our life to get it -it just happens naturally.

nor even Hitler could manipulate the world..you won't lennon won't, the world will remain being a mixture of requencies..you can however write books, or influence some people, manipulations it's evil, yet we do it. through compassion (guilt) through force (wars) through humiliation (power) through etc. the only way someone not manipulating, it's if you genuinely want to do so and so (i.e. you care about ur family and you make'em favour cause you know they're ok, and you know they're also being manipulated by yourself) it's still a selfish thing.

I like your talks, i don't want to drag you to a loveless world, cause a sociopath rationalizes this and IT DOES MAKES SENSE. of course you can also rationalize LOVE, and IT DOES MAKES SENSE. In so many ways i've got an ambivalent mind.

i don't see compassion as a out of SA. i'm still shy, i was a sociopath (or still i am, who the f. knows) and i was shy. a part of me couldn't let go the whole psychopath way, i think i was afraid or maybe i didn't underwent the whole thing, i think i do, idk. and that it would be so much pain. (like dhammer realizing he killed people -i mean they do, sociopaths know they do wrong- and genuinely feeling remorse for THEM most sociopaths get sad cause we can't control the shit we give to each others-pft.) would be too much..so i stoped myself i did not commit acts of violence or abuse, even though when you let go, it seems so easy..it feels loveless.

Also i'm an artist and i want to FEEL. most sociopaths are non-creative or bussiness made, and i wasn't raised that way. it's hard to find creativity when you're conscioussless.

On Egotism i got my doubts, and i hold an ambivalent thought.
To me a shy person is selfish of course..we'd like to be loved so we're ok.
to be loved to love would be different, would be enlightened..you wouldn't mind if your ex-gf leaved you cause you still love her, or if you're lonely cause you LOVE HUMANS. i can't do it. i want to LOVE SOMEONE otherwise it's pointless..sure i can work, and make money, and have fun..but still would be a void, even if it's companionship..i'm human.

and being shy, schizophrenic, dissociated, depressed, schizoid, sociopath, schizotypal, histrionic, makes you isolated..simply cause it was a coping mechanism to deal with traumas of life.

even norms get lonely. so yes we're selfish except when we care for the welfare of other, and i only care for family. luckily, they're ok, i'm however alone, and my dogs are making a mess here.

In so many ways, i miss the naive nature, the silly nature of shy. i'm more like schizoid these days, i'm bored. im growing alone and i fear i won't be able to feel love again. since i'm human i hold onto it.

to me compassion, or forgiveness...it's as way of revenge..and is such a f. revenge IMO. i reckon HOWEVER, it's not as self.destructive as making yourself a mirror-mirror equation towards people. in words of serial killers..' i was killing myself, but it was always the by-stander who died'

anyways, im isolated too, im an expert on psychology and i can't get myself to go an talk with the girl, i need to not give a shit to be confident, and i need to FEEL to be happy. confidence vs feel? i'd rather both. since im an artists I need to FEEL.

regarding frequencies, when you're Sa'er somehow people do look at you you attract them. when i was a sociopath (still i am) people went unoticed, i could let my dog shit on their doors and pft..and when i went back to 'normal' god IF I AM NORMAL. suddenly i got this old lady cursing me., so it's strange, how frequencies attract objects, people, sights, idk. just IMO

I'd like to discuss the 'dark side of the soul' it seems to me the ego is our personality, the spirit our emotions, and the mind our conditioned selves (through experiences etc) the MIND is MEMORY. and your SPIRIT is the one who feels compassion, forgiveness..you're going the light way and i'm sure you're still a bit aggresive. (i mean is good!) I still don't know how someone like you feel anxious..and i don't know why i feel shy. pft.