SA is overcome by gaining higher opinion of ourselves!

[charlieHungerford]

OK, I can only speak for myself, because I don't want to sound like I know how everyone suffers with SA, because I don't. But I have come to the conclusion SA is simply down to the opinion we have of ourselves. It is not about the fear of being judged negatively, that is in my opinion not a significant factor. I also believe SA comes down to inferiority.

This is what I have come to the conclusion of:

We (I really mean myself as I don't mean to make assumption of others) suffer from anxiety around people we feel inferior to. Basically we have a subconsciously value on ourselves - i.e. maybe based on how confident we are, how desirable we are, how likeable a person we are (personality), how intelligent we are and maybe status - i.e. our job or what we are achieving in life.

To prove this here are the examples:

If you are anxious around the opposite sex:

Do you find that when you are in a supermarket you would avoid the checkout of someone of the opposite sex who you think is desirable and attractive, and instead go to the checkout of an old person or someone of the same sex? If so the reason you are less anxious around the old person or person of the same sex is because you have placed a higher value on the attractive checkout person and rated them subconsciously above yourself and you feel inadequate, self conscious, inferior to that person, whereas the old person or person of the same sex you haven't placed as much value on that person because you have taken out of the equation desirability of that person.

To prove this further: If at work or school/college, etc a new person of the opposite sex started tomorrow but sat at the other end of the office so you don't get to chat to them, but take these two different situations:
If the person (of the opposite sex) who came in was someone you think is really attractive, smart, confident, seemed a nice person, intelligent, fun and instantly was popular with people, if you had to for some reason train this person something as part of your job you are very likely to be very anxious because you have placed such a high opinion of them whereas you have your value of yourself and feel very inadequate, inferior, self conscious, etc. Your anxiety would be high.
Whereas - if the new person of the opposite sex was someone you found repulsive - i.e. think of someone you thought was really ugly, if they smelt, if they farted, if they had a miserable and rude personality, if they didn't seem very clever, etc - I believe you would not feel much anxiety around her, because subconsciously you believe you are superior to that person, you are not feeling inadequate, inferior, self conscious, etc.
HOWEVER, you may still suffer anxiety simply because of your opinion of being able to do the task of training is very low and you don't believe you can meet the required standard you wish for - and therefore you may feel anxious.

That proves that anxiety is based on the opinion of yourself with regards people and with regard your ability to succeed when it comes to tasks/situations.

Take another fear: Authority

I fear authority like my boss who is quite unapproachable and is at times quite strict. Why? Because I have my value of myself in terms of status, power and confidence and believe I am pretty much irrelevant, whereas I have judged him highly because of his power, status and confidence. I therefore feel a big gulf in value and feel so little and irrelevant, etc. He can say to me dance or jump and I have to say what style or how high.

WHEREAS - he is a bloke who is not good looking or a cool person, etc - if he was the same scale as me in status or below, then I would not feel inferior to him at all. I would not feel I am little or irrelevant in comparison.

For anyone who has fear around the same sex people because of believing you lack personality to be likeable:

You have already labelled yourself as having low personality value and if someone seems good fun, confident, popular, etc, etc - you are going to be anxious around that person because of the gulf in value you have placed on yourself and the other person.
Whereas someone you don't judge as having a good personality and are not much fun or interesting - you probably don't feel anywhere near as anxious because the gulf in value placed on yourself in comparison to the other person is small.

Take a situation fear:

Fear of speaking:

Well if you are speaking to anyone you are anxious around - i.e. if you can relate to the above, then you are anxious to begin with and if you fear speaking when anxious - then the speaking is a very difficult task for you.

But say you just had to speak out loud in front of some people:
The reason you fear speaking is because you have placed a value on your ability to succeed and cope when speaking, and if you have very very little confidence in your ability to do the task in comparison to the value you need your ability to be in order to succeed and cope, then you are going to fear the situation and feel anxiety - and this anxiety triggers the problems of speaking when anxious.

Take another situation: Meeting a new person

There are two factors to meeting a new person - as mentioned we have a value on ourselves in terms of how good we are and we will be far more anxious around a person we value higher. If you meet an old grandad then you are likely to not feel too much inferiority and inadequacy as you won't feel inferior for looks or status for instance. But, if it was again someone our age who looks very respectable and confident and high status for example, then the anxiety will increase because of the gulf in value you place on yourself and that person.
HOWEVER - the second factor in this is that if you place very little value on your ability to meet the person and be confident enough to make chit chat and make the person feel comfortable and welcome, then you are going to be anxious because of the gulf in value placed on your ability to cope & succeed compared to the value needed to cope and succeed.

There are basically two factors to feel anxious: People (placing value on yourself in comparison to the other person) and Tasks (placing value on your beliefs in can you cope and succeed compared to the value you need to have in your ability to succeed).

One last example in a non social situation to prove confidence comes on value of your ability:
If you are good at something, lets say driving, if you believe you are an excellent driver, you have placed high value on your ability to cope and succeed in driving from A to B. Therefore you do not feel inadequate, not good enough, etc - and therefore you will not feel anxiety.

Therefore: My conclusion is that what others think and judge us as is irrelevant. No one likes to be judged negatively, but it is not what we fear. Our anxiety is simply brought about by the value of the opinion we have on ourself compared to the person/people we will interact with or be around, and of facing a task where our opinion of our ability to succeed is below the required level needed.

The solution therefore to overcome SA is simply to work at improving the value we have of ourselves for the things we currently place low values and to increase the values of our abilities to succeed in given tasks and situations.

One very last point to prove - we have all seen people with too high opinions of themselves, they are filled with self importance and their confidence is sky high, they can come across as arrogant and full of it, they don't feel anxious around anyone. Why? Because the value they place on themselves is so high that they believe they are better than anyone else and have no feelings of inferiority, inadequacy, self consciousness, etc, and they do not doubt their abilities to succeed in a given task, they believe they will succeed no matter what.

What do you think?

 

[blackcap]

Low self esteem, which is essentially what you're talking about, probably is a significant factor. But I think specifically, for me anyway, it's my ability to interact and connect with others that is lacking, rather than simply feeling inferior overall to others. I imagine that if I had to attend a party full of rednecks who were clearly not very bright, I'd consider myself superior to them in most ways but I would still be anxious as hell since I know I wouldn't fit in with them, or be able to interact with them.

 

[charlieHungerford]

Blackcap - but I mentioned it was value in yourself in relation to people and value in your ability to succeed and cope in a task/situation.

And what you have said just proves this is right because you said you would be anxious because you don't feel you would fit in, which is placing a low value on your ability to fit in with these people. If you believed in yourself that you can fit in then you would not be anxious. You are doubting your ability to fit in amongst them, something you wouldn't do if you placed a high value on your ability to do this.

 

[blackcap]

And what you have said just proves this is right because you said you would be anxious because you don't feel you would fit in, which is placing a low value on your ability to fit in with these people. If you believed in yourself that you can fit in then you would not be anxious. You are doubting your ability to fit in amongst them, something you wouldn't do if you placed a high value on your ability to do this.

Fair enough, then it sounds like you are talking about something that we already know.

I guess it would be the same as someone who is a poor tennis player, who just doesn't have the skills to improve, and is anxious about playing in tournaments because he/she does not peform well. If the fear is irrtational (i.e the person is a good tennis player but the anxiety prevents them from performing), then the solution is to make the person realise how irrational the fear, thereby removing it. But what's if the person really isn't a good tennis player and just does not have the aptitude to become one, regardless of how much tennis they play?

 

[charlieHungerford]

Well this is taking a funny turn blackcap. If a tennis player has anxiety about performing well because he is a poor player, maybe he/she is anxious about making a fool of themselves?

But anyway, I did say this was the breakthrough for myself and how I suffer. If it doesn't apply to you and you know this already sorry for wasting your time.

 

[charlieHungerford]

This may be not anything new, but the reason I am so excited is because I know this is the reasons I am anxious around people and in situations, and I cannow stop wasting my time trying to tackle the fear of anxiety, trying to desensitise the people and situations I am anxious around/in, to try and no longer be afraid of negative feedback. I have tried hard with all those approaches and made little progress. Now I can concentrate on the real reason.

And just to prove for myself even more so - when you have a good or bad hair day - my SA for instance differs remarkably. i.e. when I feel good about myself I feel much more confident, I have a lot more confidence being seen and my anxiety reduces. Whereas on a bad hair day I just want to hide, I die if I see a girl I like. I am much more anxious because of the lower value I place on myself and the extended gulf in value between myself and the other person.

Anyway, please feel free to disagree if it doesn't apply to you.

 

[Screwdriver1020]

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[charlieHungerford]

Thanks screwdriver. I cannot stress how helpful this forum has been in reading people's responses and also just writing what I am thinking in relation to SA, it really has helped me so much.

If I do write a book I will mention the likes of you and this forum.

Its funny that we all say this is something we already know, but maybe the answer to overcoming SA was so easy and obvious, but because it seems so complex I went looking for answers far deeper than necessary. When I first started searching for the answers to overcome feeling the way I did I just thought I had a complete lack of confidence, even my boss said 'You have no confidence in yourself at all'. When I stumbled across SA and could relate to all the symptoms, I kind of got lost trying to work out why I feared being judged negatively by people and trying to work on the fears, rather than actually building confidence in the things I lack confidence for.

I believe there is room for books on SA on the market definitely. I have bought 2 books and to be honest they are total rubbish for me. Maybe I suffer differently from others?

I am delighted I have now pinpointed at last why I feel the way I do, I feel a bit silly that it was something so simple, but am glad it is something simple. But now I have to work out methods to start boosting my opinions on myself, start really placing value on my self worth, to really believe I am good enough in those parts of me I have for so long believed are not, to start believing in my abilities to succeed and cope in situations, etc, etc.

Does this simple theory not relate to your SA problems?

 

[plainsofserenity]

But what's if the person really isn't a good tennis player and just does not have the aptitude to become one, regardless of how much tennis they play?

How would the non-SA poor tennis player respond?
He would play to the best of his ability. Is he anxious about loosing? No, he knows he'll loose.
Why is he playing then? Simply because he enjoys it.
His self esteem and self confidence and opinion of himself is such that it's not going to bother him if people are in the crowd thinking he's making a fool of himself. He'd never considere not doing something because of what people might think.

"That would be ludicrous to govern my life worrying what other people thought. I would miss out on all kinds of thing if I had to worry about that." he says.
"That's their problem," he thinks shrugging it off because he really and truly doesn't care. "I'm just here enjoying myself. Oh, but did you see that one aced serve I made!"

 

[alienin2004]

Hi..Just like to say that I can relate to the first post a lot and it was very informative and helpful
I do find If I'm going to a place where there are better 'guys'
(since Im one and am indirectly competiting against them in one way or the other) than me..I feel anxious right away.However if Im at a place where im better than most..I feel more confident and SA doesnt really come in much..
I also like to do only the things Im good at..and try n only do them..

 

[frizboy]

I think there's probably a good amount of truth in what the OP said. I also think you picked some pretty good examples to illustrate your point.

But what do we make of those of us that have high self-esteem? I would consider myself such a person. For example, I have a very high (but realistic!) opinion of myself--that's because in the world of academics, research, technical writing, etc., I am highly proficient. That world also happens to be about the only one I have; I am very much withdrawn from the world of people and parties and all that.

I experience anxiety when I try to cross over into the social world. But if I purposely limit myself to nonsocial activities, I continue to cultivate achievements that build up a feeling of self-efficacy. Obviously, though, my habits can be construed as unhealthy, and I believe I am indeed missing out on quite a bit in life. But still, I don't think inferiority or low self esteem is the full story. Indeed, in my case, I can easily do the downward social comparison dance and see that I'm at the top of my game. I believe inferiority and low self esteem may be experienced by those of us with SA, but the situations that provoke them will vary from person to person. I don't believe they are traitlike properties of SA per se.

 

[plainsofserenity]

I would say you have confidence in your ability to do you job but have no personal self esteem as a person (is that redundant?)

 

[frizboy]

I understand what you're saying. But I think this self-esteem theory may suffer from what Karl Popper calls unfalsifiability, a hallmark of pseudosciences. The problem here is that we can "read" inferiority into just about anything. In some cases, surely inferiority may be present. In other cases, maybe we're just convincing ourselves of it after the fact.

What do we make of situations where we are clearly superior? I strain to find reasons why I might be considered inferior, even socially, among some of my relatives, for instance. Many of them are just as socially inept as I am. But still, I feel anxious around them.

 

[plainsofserenity]

Have no idea why you feel inferior. That would be for you and therapist from the nethereaches of your past. I would imagine it would be something personal to you.
I truly doubt you'll find the answer in a public forum.

 

[frizboy]

Heh, are you hinting at a psychoanalytic answer to my SA? Eww... Popper had a fit with that one for the same reason. I direct you to his essay, "Science: Conjectures and Refutations" for a brief introduction.

Now, perhaps I am being a bit harsh. But I am also a born skeptic. I also try to find scientific, logical reasons for things in this life. Not to rule out other causes, but I would just be wary of those reasons provided to us through flimsy methodologies.

 

[plainsofserenity]

Well good luck with that. Hope it all works out.

 

[frizboy]

Lol....

I guess we just come from different schools of thought? I didn't really think people cared much for psychoanalytic theory these days though. Each to their own.

-Tim

 

[blackcap]

What do we make of situations where we are clearly superior? I strain to find reasons why I might be considered inferior, even socially, among some of my relatives, for instance. Many of them are just as socially inept as I am. But still, I feel anxious around them.

Yeah I think inferiority or low self-esteem is certainly part of SA, but not necessarily the key. For me at least, I have always had an innate fear of strangers (even as a baby, according to my parents), so it's not something I've learned along the way. Certainly feeling inferior to someone else exacebates the anxiety, but I feel for me it's that automatic fear that needs addressing.

 

[charlieHungerford]

Blackcap and frizboy, when I read your posts I believe what I said is true for you. Remember I am not just talking about inferiority in terms of self esteem on yourself as a person, but inferiority in terms of believing you are capable of handling a situation. I mean blackcap you mention a fear of strangers, this fear in my opinion is simply because you have a subconscious value of your ability to handle and perform in situations with strangers, and this value happens to be very very low. And you know that the required value you need in your abilities to do this is significantly higher. Hence fearing the situation. That in my opinion is why you feel the way you do.

And for Frizboy - there is no doubting your academic ability, I have never even seen some of those words before and I am pretty clever. I have huge confidence in parts of me - i.e. I have huge confidence in my personality in terms of knowing I am likeable. But that is not a factor when it comes to some social situations. i.e. if I fancy a woman, I just have overpowering feelings that I am not good looking enough for her to be interested in me, I doubt my ability to chat to her because of confidence issues. I basically place a value of my ability to perform and make a good impression so lowly, so much lower than what I believe is the required level I need, and therefore I feel an overwhelming sense of anxiety.

The only way for me to ever be confident enough in this situations is simply to work at gaining value in myself and my ability to perform and succeed in this situation, so that in time I will go into the situation with a high opinion of myself and my abilities to succeed, feeling I am good enough for this girl, I am such a cool person, I have so much to offer, I can be liked for sure, I can succeed and perform and make a good impression. Believing in myself and having no doubts on myself will mean I go into this situation believing I am going to succeed. That confidence means anxiety fades because you are not doubting yourself, you are not feeling inadequate, you are not feeling you are not good enough to cope and perform and succeed, you are not focusing on negatives, you are not self conscious, you are not focusing on the fact you cannot do it which right now is what I believe - I cannot do it.


So Frizboy - it is so clear you have placed a subconscious value on your ability to handle and perform in social situations. You are basically doubting your ability and your confidence to perform like you wish. The value you place in your ability to perform and succeed is significantly lower than what you believe the value should be. Therefore you are anxious and fear such situations. The way to remove the anxiety and not fear this is to get that value you place on your ability to perform and succeed has to get as close as possible to the value you believe you need and even above the value. I mean look at the value you place on you intelligence. It is high, you have super confidence in your abilities, and no doubt feel no inadequacies about it, you feel probably superior in terms of intelligence. But can you say the same of your ability in social situations?

 

[blackcap]

I mean blackcap you mention a fear of strangers, this fear in my opinion is simply because you have a subconscious value of your ability to handle and perform in situations with strangers, and this value happens to be very very low.

But do you think I had this low value of my ability as a baby, that caused me to cry whenever anyone but my parents held me? I don't think so (unless I was a very very smart baby!). I believe my fear of strangers is automatic - it just happens - and short of some sort of medication, I don't believe I can get rid of it.

Granted, if I could somehow improve my ability to deal with strangers (or simply accept my inability and not care what others think), then maybe the logical and rational side of my brain could take over and deal with the automatic fear, but as yet I haven't found a way to do this (hence my analogy of the tennis player who is just not very good at tennis no matter how hard he tries).

Maybe it's different for you. Perhaps your fears have been learnt along the way rather than being an innate part of your personality. If that's the case then CBT could address that, by helping you 'unlearn' those fears.