Looking for experts on iontophoresis

[Deadfish]

Hello All,

I've been using the Drionic device effectively for over 6 years. I modified it for AC right from the start, and I’ve been making my own plates and pads too. However, I recently “upgraded” to the MD-1a because my Drionic started to wear out … I believe the rubber electrodes just started to wear out.

If I remember correctly the Drionic folks recommend ½ hour treatments done over a 2 week period. However, the Fischer folks recommend 20 minute sessions (per hand/foot) every 2-3 days for 5 to 10 sessions … either way you’re looking at 2 weeks of treatment to reach euhidrosis.

Who has that kind of time in either case? I travel a bit for work and I can’t bank on being home for 2 full weeks. So, over the years I developed my own treatment schedule that fits my work & life style schedule. It consists of 5-7 consecutive days of 1 hour treatments (both hands at same time) done 1-4 times per day.

It’s hard to get 4 full sessions in a single day, but 3 one-hour sessions is fairly “easy”. I just plan two of them around conference calls during the day and then do the third session in the evening.

Basically I know that between 7 and 13 hours of total treatment time done over at least 5 days works to get me into euhidrosis. Compressing the same amount of treatment time into fewer days didn’t seem to work too well (and it’s also difficult to get anything done).

The total treatment time would be less, say 7-9 hours, if I used newer plates. With corroded plates the total treatment time would lengthen to almost 13-14 hours. That’s where I was when I purchased the new MD-1a.

Why all of this blather? Well, I’m looking for information regarding the relationship of current intensity, treatment session length, and total treatment time.

It stands to reason that when plates get corroded there is less current, and it takes longer total time to reach euhidrosis.

Does that mean the inverse is true – that with more current treatment times will go down? In other words does a higher current used at the same session intervals require less overall time to reach euhidrosis? Specifically - If I use the MD-1a at a ~24mA level for the same intervals previously used with the Drionic will I reach euhidrosis sooner?

Also, what about the overall length of time … why do both fall in around 2 weeks? Is there some additional benefit in stretching out the period of time between the treatment sessions? Is there some type of “recovery” process that is required between treatments (like weightlifting).

And while I’m at it … has anyone had success with just maintenance treatments every so often? (i.e. once every 2-4 weeks). I’ve never been able to find the right interval there so I just plan on 5-7 days of treatment every 4 weeks.

I just used the new unit for the first time today. I’m starting out with right hand/foot for ½ hour at max output, and then switch to the left hand/foot combination. The sensation is more uncomfortable while making any change (up or down) than it is with the current at a steady level (I learned this the hard way … turned it down quickly and almost shot out of my chair). I hope it works for my feet, but based on what I’ve read here so far it’s iffy at best. I know the hand portion will work though based on years of experience … I just need to fine tune my schedule.

Sorry for the book, but there aren’t a lot of people that know much about this … and inquiry minds want to know.

 

[seekinghelp]

I'm no expert on iontophoresis but I'll chime in my opinion and experience with it. Hopefully, it'll provide some insight.

I too believe euhidrosis is a function of the variables you mentioned -- amperage, session length, and total treatment time -- and it behaves almost linearly but not quite. So, if your current is low, then you would have to increase your session length or keep that constant and increase the total treatment time. But I guess it would make sense that if your amperage is too low, then you'll have unrealistic session and total treatment times. There is an upper and lower limit.

So, what's the optimal current, session, and treatment time combination? I think both of your machines have it correct. An onslaught of consecutive day treatments works. I know on my machine, the Idromed 4, the initial treatment protocol was 10 consecutive days @ 10-15 minutes for the hands and then 10-15 minutes for the feet. This completely dried my hands and feet.

Again, back to the euhidrosis function, since the Idromed 4 tells me the session length and total treatment times, all I had to do was find the right current. This is important because if you fall short of the right amperage, then the session length and total treatment time won't compensate. Thus, there is plenty of room for "trial and error" in finding the right amperage, which was found by a "tingling sensation" that yielded some itching, a little bit of burning but nothing painful.

Due to your busy schedule, you only have 5-7 days for total treatment time, and you increased the session times to compensate for not being able to follow the 2 week protocols. However, again I'm no expert or Doctor, but there's a limit to how much you can increase amperage and the frequency of sessions, and I think you might be at that limit. My Idromed 4 recommends not to exceed 15mA for the hands or 25mA for the feet. In my opinion, you either have strong tolerance for pain or the willpower of Rocky Balboa. Your 1 hour sessions at 4 times a day is a lot, but then again it does follow the relationship we had mentioned.

It seems to me you're doing this onslaught of treatment, then going a few weeks without any sessions. In the meantime your HH comes back in full force, and then you do the onslaught of sessions again. Instead, in my opinion, I think you should follow the Fischer recommendations or follow my Idromed 4 recommendations. Basically spread out your treatments, because these recommended protocols are made to help you achieve a steady state of dryness. Once you achieve that, go some time with that dryness and perform a maintenance to keep you at a steady state of dryness. Also, maybe you should try doing your hands and then your feet, switching polarities.

In my experience, my 10 day initial treatment got my dry hands and feet. It was 10mA @ 10 mins for the hands and 18 mA @ 10 mins for the feet. Although I'm still in the process of figuring out maintenance treatments, I got no more than sweating from the fingertips and the sides of my feet. Once that happened, I did a single session, and I went back to being dry again. In your situation, I believe you can benefit from achieving a steady state of dryness, rather than a cyclical one, going back and forth with excessive treatments. But, if your time is constraining you, then perhaps what you're doing now is the only thing you can do.

Also, I would think that corroded plates will have a more difficult time reaching a certain current, but if you're able to achieve the same current with corroded plates as with new plates then I would think there would be no problem. In other words, I don't think there is such a thing as quality of amperage. 10 mA with corroded plates will be the same as 10 mA on new plates. I could be wrong about this, but an amp be an amp. Now, if the corroded plates can't reach 10mA and your new plates can, then that would be different.

Hope this helped a little bit.

Here is some other information on other iontophoresis machines:
http://www.esfbchannel.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2595

 

[Deadfish]

Seekinghelp – excellent feedback! Thank you!

…I know on my machine, the Idromed 4, the initial treatment protocol was 10 consecutive days @ 10-15 minutes for the hands and then 10-15 minutes for the feet. This completely dried my hands and feet.

Very interesting. The total time you mention here is orders of magnitude less than my 7-13 hour onslaughts. You reach euhidrosis with only 2.5 hours stretched over 10 days. We can almost deduce … unscientifically speaking of course, a relationship between total treatment period and total session time. In other words quadrupling the session time reduces the total treatment time by ½.

Maybe …

… all I had to do was find the right current. This is important because if you fall short of the right amperage, then the session length and total treatment time won't compensate. Thus, there is plenty of room for "trial and error" in finding the right amperage, which was found by a "tingling sensation" that yielded some itching, a little bit of burning but nothing painful.

… My Idromed 4 recommends not to exceed 15mA for the hands or 25mA for the feet. In my opinion, you either have strong tolerance for pain or the willpower of Rocky Balboa. Your 1 hour sessions at 4 times a day is a lot, but then again it does follow the relationship we had mentioned.

Heh-heh, probably a little of both. I think my hatred of HH overrides any pain. I’m sure that in the back of my mind somewhere I fantasize about the high levels of current doing “permanent damage” and eliminating HH altogether. I can dream can’t I …

I’m wondering if there is a cliff effect with respect to amperage. Is finding the right amperage critical in that if you go over that “perfect” level then the benefits are reduced? Or, is it simply a pain threshold/tolerance thing where more isn’t necessarily better to reach euhidrosis, but it’s better than too little.

It seems to me you're doing this onslaught of treatment, then going a few weeks without any sessions. In the meantime your HH comes back in full force, and then you do the onslaught of sessions again. Instead, in my opinion, I think you should follow the Fischer recommendations or follow my Idromed 4 recommendations. Basically spread out your treatments, because these recommended protocols are made to help you achieve a steady state of dryness. Once you achieve that, go some time with that dryness and perform a maintenance to keep you at a steady state of dryness. Also, maybe you should try doing your hands and then your feet, switching polarities.

I agree that maintenance is the way to go – especially considering the short maintenance treatment sessions of 20 minutes that are recommended. That wouldn’t hard at all to support.

I’ll have to play around with it though. I have tried it in the past, but it seems that I either waited too long between maint intervals, or didn’t perform enough sessions because the HH cam back and I was back at the beginning.

Right now I get a solid 4 weeks of euhidrosis (which is absolutely wonderful). Perhaps I’ll try maintaining with 2-3 short/lower amp treatments every 2 weeks.

The Fischer unit recommends the hand/foot combination so that you have one hand free to control the unit. How do you do both hands at the same time? I could do so with the Drionic because I would just stick my hand in (and take it out) with the unit cranked all the way up. It burned as the contact point got smaller, but only for a second and I got used to it. I don’t dar do the same with the Fischer cranked up to 24!!!

…I would think that corroded plates will have a more difficult time reaching a certain current, but if you're able to achieve the same current with corroded plates as with new plates then I would think there would be no problem. In other words, I don't think there is such a thing as quality of amperage. 10 mA with corroded plates will be the same as 10 mA on new plates. I could be wrong about this, but an amp be an amp. Now, if the corroded plates can't reach 10mA and your new plates can, then that would be different.

Yeah, I didn’t mean to insinuate there is a quality of amperage thing so much as a quality of treatment. What happens with corroded plates on the Drionic is that you get point contact as the plates get corroded (the contact patch gets smaller). Remember the Drionic is different in that each hand tray completes its own circuit. The base of the palm and the finger tips each stretch across the circuit, or the two plates. The amperage doesn’t necessarily go down, but it gets focused into a smaller area on the palm.

Thank you again! Your feedback and discussion is greatly appreciated.

DF

 

[seekinghelp]

Seekinghelp – excellent feedback! Thank you!

+ Sure thing!

I’m wondering if there is a cliff effect with respect to amperage. Is finding the right amperage critical in that if you go over that “perfect” level then the benefits are reduced? Or, is it simply a pain threshold/tolerance thing where more isn’t necessarily better to reach euhidrosis, but it’s better than too little.

+ Yea, the finding of the "perfect" current is a sensitive issue, literally. I think that a low current will do absolutely nothing, no matter how many sessions or hours you endure. If you exceed that "perfect" current, then I do believe that benefits are reduced. You'll probably itch beyond belief and endure some bad burns.

I agree that maintenance is the way to go – especially considering the short maintenance treatment sessions of 20 minutes that are recommended. That wouldn’t hard at all to support.

I’ll have to play around with it though. I have tried it in the past, but it seems that I either waited too long between maint intervals, or didn’t perform enough sessions because the HH cam back and I was back at the beginning.

Right now I get a solid 4 weeks of euhidrosis (which is absolutely wonderful). Perhaps I’ll try maintaining with 2-3 short/lower amp treatments every 2 weeks.

+ Yes! If you were able to go 4 weeks, then definitely try doing 1 to 2 sessions every 2 weeks. Perhaps do 1 session a week. I truly believe a steady state approach is the way to go.

Anyways, best of luck to you! Keep us updated when you figure out what works for you.

 

[Deadfish]

Thanks oce again.

Does anyone have a good link to iontophoresis case studies? You'd think this information would be more readily avaiable ...

 

[Jezza]

Heh-heh, probably a little of both. I think my hatred of HH overrides any pain. I’m sure that in the back of my mind somewhere I fantasize about the high levels of current doing “permanent damage” and eliminating HH altogether. I can dream can’t I …

I recognise that sentiment :lol:

Does anyone have a good link to iontophoresis case studies? You'd think this information would be more readily avaiable ...

You definitely would. I think for now however the best case studies you can find are on this and maybe some other fora.

Personally I can't yet help you with it, but I'm just now starting with my own ionto device as well so I'll certainly share some findings.

 

[Deadfish]

Hi all,

So after just beginning treatments on Tuesday it appears my hands have reached euhidrosis. Not a total dryness yet, but also not the usual clammy & dripping at times either.

For the record it’s been 3 days with 6 total treatments per hand/foot combination. Treatment sessions have been anywhere from 40 minutes to 20 minutes per foot/hand. I started out cranking it up to 24 mA, but as usually happens my sensitivity goes up and now I can barely manage 18-20 mA (I also have a lot of minor cuts on my hands that hurt like hell …). I’ve also only switched polarity twice.

Another few sessions and I believe I should be at complete euhidrosis for my hands. As with most here the feet are a different story, but luckily we don’t “shake feet” in our society. I’ll probably continue sessions with both feet at the same time only to see where that leads.

All that said it took me less than 1/2 to 1/3 the time in total length of time as compared to my old Drionic device. Total treatment time has been ~3 hours compared to 7+. I’m not suggesting people go and hurt themselves, but for me cranking up the power does seem to reduce the total treatment time required.

I wonder if the dry state will last as long? (Previously 4 weeks). I won’t test for it because I’m going to test for a minimal maintenance program from now on.

Ciao.

 

[KngofMn]

Deadfish,
I also just bought a Fischer MD1a about 2 weeks ago and have been doing treatments. I started out doing a treatment once every other day or so because my hands would hurt like hell at first. The last 3 or 4 days I have been doing it everyday and yesterday I did it twice. I would say I am on treatment 8-10(lost count) and not sure if I am seeing much of a difference yet. I usually have the machine up to around 18-20 MA but started out in the 12-15 range. However I don't think I was doing it right the first 4-6 times because I would have my hands just sitting on the top of the water and the last 4 times I have submerged my fingers all the way and I believe most of my hand is in the water. My question to you is how far do you fill up the tray with water? The tray is pretty large and the manual says to fill it up till it reaches the top of the black electrode emmitor. I am doing that but am wondering if I fill it up half way if it will be just as effective and it would make it eaiser to put my hands into the trays. Also how much of your hand do you put into the water? Like I said before I have now submerged my fingers till the water reaches around my knuckles and try and get the sides of my hand in as much as I possibly can without the water going on the tops of my hands or on my wrists. I am also using baking soda because my water isn't "hard" or "soft" enough I forget which one it is, but do you think this has any bearing on whether or not it is causing it not to work yet? This post can be answered by anyone and Pinker I would like to hear your thoughts too. Thanks

 

[Deadfish]

... I started out doing a treatment once every other day or so because my hands would hurt like hell at first. The last 3 or 4 days I have been doing it everyday and yesterday I did it twice. I would say I am on treatment 8-10(lost count) and not sure if I am seeing much of a difference yet.

My hands only seem to hurt bad after several days of multiple treatments. However, if I have any cuts or lots of scrapes then, yeah, they hurt a lot even with covering the cuts with vaseline. Sometimes I have to do some creative breathing techniques to put up with the pain, but other times it seems I can tolerate higher current levels without much pain at all.

... I usually have the machine up to around 18-20 MA but started out in the 12-15 range. However I don't think I was doing it right the first 4-6 times because I would have my hands just sitting on the top of the water and the last 4 times I have submerged my fingers all the way and I believe most of my hand is in the water. My question to you is how far do you fill up the tray with water? The tray is pretty large and the manual says to fill it up till it reaches the top of the black electrode emmitor. I am doing that but am wondering if I fill it up half way if it will be just as effective and it would make it eaiser to put my hands into the trays.

I fill them up so the water is above the electrode. However, I place the hand tray on a chair next to my office chair, and it has a slight downward tilt so that the water level is deeper at the electrode end of the tray (finger tips), and shallower at the back (palm/wrist). The foot tray I fill so that it almost overflows once I put my foot in.

I'm not certain, but if the water level is high enough to make contact with the electrode and there is current flkow then it should not make a difference to have water above that level ... other than to treat more of the hand/foot.

... Also how much of your hand do you put into the water? Like I said before I have now submerged my fingers till the water reaches around my knuckles and try and get the sides of my hand in as much as I possibly can without the water going on the tops of my hands or on my wrists.

I submerge all the way - as far as I can. If I could take a bath in it I would :lol:

The slight tilt of the chair helps keep the water level from being too high up the wrist, which seems to be a little more sensitive of an area.

... I am also using baking soda because my water isn't "hard" or "soft" enough I forget which one it is, but do you think this has any bearing on whether or not it is causing it not to work yet? This post can be answered by anyone and Pinker I would like to hear your thoughts too. Thanks

Hmm, I'm no expert on this so I can't say. However, I remember my first time it took a lot longer than I thought it would, but I was determined to keep treating until I saw results.

How long are your treatment sessions? (you said 8-10 sessions, but you don't mention how long the treatments are or how many total hours). Have you seen any change at all? Sometimes before I reach a dry state I feel as though my sweat gets "finer" ... I'm sure this makes no sense to some, but it feels as though the sweat is coming out of smaller & finer pores ... it's hard to describe, but it's definitely different than the normal sweaty state. When I reach that I know I'm close to a dry state.

Definitely keep at it - you're probably not too far from seeing results. If what you're currently doing doesn't end up producing results then change it up. Make the sessions longer, and closer in time to each other rather than spreading them out over 2 days. I'm sure there are many others on this board who have developed their own methodologies.

 

[KngofMn]

Deadfish,

I had a quick question for you. You mentioned in your earlier post that you only switched the polarity twice. Did you have your hand in the positive pole or the negative? I notice that the negative pole hurts a lot more than the positive and am wondering if that means that the negative works better, but I have also heard that the positive pole is the one that actually works better. Also when did you decide to switch the poles? Would you do a whole 40 minute session on one pole and then switch it the next day? A lot of questions but I would like to know more about your treatment method.

Also if your tired of doing hand and foot and then having to do the other hand and foot which obviously is annoying and time consuming. I do both hands at once and put the machine on the floor and control the knobs with my toes. Sounds silly and hard but it's really very easy and it saves 1/2 the time if you don't really care about your feet sweating like I don't.

 

[Deadfish]

Truthfully - I have no idea. I never really paid attention to which tubs I connected the + and - jumpers to. In other words sometimes I may have it hooked up so that the + is on my foot, and other times my hands.

When I did switch polarity I would do 10-20 minutes on one polarity and then switch to the other polarity for 10-20 minutes. But again, I only did that once or twice. Even when I used the Drionic I never really switched polarity much (done by placing palms in tub rather than fingers).

I don't mind doing the foot/hand combination as I seem to be getting results with my feet too. I can't say they are "dry", but they're certainly not dripping either!

So have you seen any results yet? How many hours of treatment do you have in now ? I hope it's going well for you.

 

[KngofMn]

I had actually gotten my hands dry with the combo of the Ionto and Dehydral at night. I stopped using the dehydral and they started to sweat so who knows. I think the Ionto does help but maybe not as much as it does for other people. My hands started to sweat badly again and the last 4-5 days I have done the Ionto with Table salt instead of baking soda and using the dehydral at night and they are drying up once again so it must be the combination of the two that is keeping me dry. It's all a big experiment so I will keep with it and see what happens.