Identity Crisis: Underlying problem of S.A.?

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi,

I am wondering about certain facts about my self that stand-out...

I have had a strong interest in spirituality for a long time; and this desire to 'be One with God' can be likened to desiring to 'be one with others', if you consider that God is the same as all people.
...and 'social anxiety' is the strong need to be accepted by others and especially 'the tribe'.

Spirituality also has a lot to do with practising unconditional love which requires both the lack of judging others,and, along with this, the lack of fear of being judged by others.
...and then I notice that social anxiety is the fear of being judged by others.

I have also read that socially anxious people are "people people".

Consider that social anxiety is the dependency upon others in order to know one's own identity as opposed to the spiritual way, which is all about self-actualisation and the creation of a sense of self independent of others (all the whilst that it is in touch with all others).

....and ideas like the above are making me wonder about just what is this thing called 'social anxiety'. And even I am wondering at the irony of facing all my fears of being 'faulty', 'flawed' and rejected by others that are the effects of fearing these very same things themselves. ...that the spiritual belief - 'you attract what you fear' - is true, but also just that perhaps this is in a way the medicine I am taking; that instead of being dependent upon the world to tell me who I am and worried of what its answer will be with this -that telling the world who I am is the answer.
And that, ironically, I am "facing my worst fears" by actually living them out.

I tried the spiritual method of changing my thoughts and judgements, but wasn't strong enough to achieve this. Yet, this way of experience may still get me there; and may even be the fastest way to losing my fears.

.....When all is said and done, when I can tell the world Who I am without hesitation or fear regarding other people's labels and judgements; and when I can see whatever flaws I actually do possess in perspective with what is equally good and strong with these: - I will be cured.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hey Phantom,
How are you? ..You're one of the few that bothers taking interest in my posts!

Yeah, identity is a really interesting theme.
If you have read anythin about Carl Gustav Jung -he talked a fair bit about the idea of 'individuation' , which is when a person 'comes into their own' and basically achieves self-realisation, defining who they are within the world. ...This is essentially the same concept as Jesus' 'finding the Kingdom of Heaven' -this similarity between spirituality and analytical psyhcology, also being something that Jung believed to be correct.

And as far as your talking about 'two personalities' or two sides -this is in keeping with Jung's ideas about the internal conflict that exists within the individual (neurosis is usually the name given to this). And 'individuation' is about bringing these 2 aspects of the divided self together.
Or, in the words of Jung:- "When a person becomes aware of both polarities within any given conflict, a great psychological shift occurs.... the third, transcendent (God like) opinion is achieved by maintaining the friction between polar opposites for as long as possible..."
or, in Jesus' words...
"When you make the two into one, .... then you will enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

...So what you're talking about, with a person having an inner conflict, has some similarities with what is talked about in psychology. ...although the exact details about this is of course more complicated and is something that I wish I could understand better than very basically....

It is also interesting that Jung came-up with all his theories on how the mind work during the time in which he was considered 'mentally ill'. He supposedly went through a period of psychosis, where he locked himself up in a castle or something. ....And when asked about this period in his life, he replied with something like: 'How can you understand darkness unless you're brave enough to go through it' ....or something along those lines.
It's really quite amazing -the whole spiritual/psychological field and how the questions about just what is reality/God vs no God/sanity vs insanity.
....Because what the experts have to say, regarding such things, would blow the minds of a lot of people. And what you said about such things having a paradoxical nature is also something that I have found.
...But, again, I wish I understood such things better than what I do understand -which is at best the tip of the iceberg.

 

[random]

Little Miss Muffet,
I sat down to write a reply and, when finished, discovered I had written about 3 pages. THIS is why I some of us don't post more often - can't trim our text down to bearable length. I don't know where to put it as it touches on your initial post and drifts into my spiritual hurdles with SA. I could put it in 'personal stories' but it's just an element of a personal story. I could put 3 pages here but it might anesthetize others who may wish to post. Let me know if you are up for 3 pages of me rattling on about spirituality and SA. The short and probably bearable reply I give here is that I think that we have a God given need for self worth. We often try to 'get' it from others but it doesn't work well because others have their own issues and then we all make mistakes and get hurt etc. Besides - our self worth is not theirs to give.
I have tried through faith alone to overcome my past and wounds etc. and always ended up feeling spiritually inferior.
But - by trying a little less and being more honest with God (e.g. telling Him I am angry with Him) has given me...hmmm...maybe not strength (as in "I AM OVERCOMING THIS!) but is given me more helpless reliance on God and it seems like He is overcoming some immovable barriers in my life. I don't know where my recovery leads (will I always have SA?) but I am now benefitting from healed wounds and more internal peace. I am not done yet........I really wonder what 'done' would be like.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Go ahead random! -I personally wouldn't at all mind if you rambled on about your spiritual struggle with social anxiety.
...In fact, I would welcome it as a change from the negativity that I feel when I read terms used in psychotherapy (I find psychotherapy to have more of a tendency to make me feel negative and boxed-in, as opposed to allowing me the opportunity to change)

As far as what I believe you are saying: I think that I can relate.
In fact, before I even went to see any professional about what I already suspected was 'social anxiety', I used what little I had already understood about spirituality to attempt to "fix it my self".

...since then I have gone through a fair degree of frustration at how, whilst some situations it actually seemed to work quite well, but in others my spiritual methods actually seemed to make my anxiety worse-!!!
...however, it must be said that these are MY spiritual methods, and that there exists a good degree of wisdom that I don't have an appreciation of.

I actually believe that there does exist a spiritual lesson here for me. Even just last night I was wondering at it. ...I've read how the Kingdom of Heaven cannot be forced into. ...I also have had previous experience with just how challenging it is to achieve that most delicate of balances that means that a person no-longer gives-in to their old methods of thinking and behaving. ...or, in other words -that the vicious circle should never be underestimated -and that it is truly truly a humbling experience discovering just how much the individual is privy to it and the unconcious unthinking thinking that goes with it... and that, if it isn't a truly humbling experience, becoming aware at just how much a slave a person is to this reactive, unthinking way of being, than the person has not made it.

...Just as I observe that God doesn't measure 'goodness' -that it is unlimited. That when a person makes it 'into the Kingdom of Heaven' and they achieve what Jung calls 'individuation' whereby they have a higher conciousness and can now "see", that they find it much easier to completely avoid judging others. ...Yet, not even my 'professional' therapists can demonstrate this clarity of perception -that, ironically, they are supposed to be inspiring in us. ...But, they are only human too.
-which is why I love the fact that Jesus pointed-out how the tax collectors and prostitutes -those who erred and sinned and had fallen- would get into the Kingdom of Heaven before the priests (or was it before many-?) ...but the point is that achieving 'individuation', making it into 'the Kingdom of Heaven' and creating this new perception that our psychotherapists go on and on about -is something that is truly challenging. And that, this is the bitter-sweet nature of life: that the position that we find ourselves in has a lot of irony to it.

...Anyhow: I'll stop there and hope that I haven't put you off!!
....I hope that you get the jist and follow my thinking to some degree.
Thanks

 

[random]

Little Miss Muffet,
No you have not put me off because she who writes alot..hopes others will write alot so she can read alot. I'll just paste my original reply which ballooned into pages in right here without editing it to transition smoothly.

Little Miss Muffet,
Brace yourself – I still haven’t learned to be concise. I used to be employed as a writer/editor type (and who can believe this with my slovenly grammar and composition?) and when I am brooding I really can write pages and pages. Let me perhaps spare you the read – I describe my spiritual struggles that seem to underpin some of my SA here – but I drag on about it. Most directly in response to your post – I think we have a God given desire to be one with God – loved by God. And because we are sensitive non-gods, we kind of veer away from His plan and begin trying to get the same thing through the wrong channels – approval from people. I think He designed us for love, and to love on another, but that we kind of get lost along the way.

Reading your post, I have been dwelling on similar themes this holiday season –but from a different angle. I am looking at the journey I have been on the last few years.
There have long been places in my life (particularly SA) that I tried to turn to God for help with, but was some how unable to bring my spiritual faith to bear upon my problems. I have looked over these situations until I got sick of looking at it all.
In odd steps in the past few years – it’s as though a very knotted ball of yarn (spiritual) is slowly unwinding in my life. I can say that emotional wounds are healing but I don’t know how far I will heal and what I will be left with.
I started seeing a psychologist about the same time the church I had just started attending was working through a series called “The Purpose Driven Life”. One day I was reading a chapter from the series and I came across the suggestion that some people have a ‘silent rift’ with God. I thought – how sad - those people would fix it if they could see it; it doesn’t seem fair. 4 months later I would fall over my own silent spiritual rift with God – it was there all along but I never saw it.
Long ago, from the age of 16 to the age of 18, I was taking care of my mother who was ill with cancer. I was Christian and I prayed as a means of bearing the emotional pain and supporting my mother as well as I could. One morning I walked in her room and our eyes met and I could see her physical condition had drastically fallen overnight – I was completely and utterly shocked but I concealed it from her; gave her a pleasant smile, greeted her and asked what she wanted for breakfast. She looked like death. But – in that flash of seconds when I realized ‘MY MOTHER IS GOING TO DIE!” I also adopted my silent rift with God. In those few seconds my mother and I made eye contact I silently and suddenly believed a lot of things. Here are some of the instant but hidden lies I adopted into my subconcious:
*that God did not care about some 41 year old woman and her 18 year old daughter who loved her because He has the entire world and greater issues to take care of. Floods, famines, etc.
*to all my prayers for help – God answered a brisk and indifferent ‘No!’
*my mother would die because I was not faithful enough or obedient enough, too flawed to please God etc. If only I had done better, had more faith…my mother would live…
*God was telling me “I don’t love you like THAT…” meaning He was a God of the whole world/universe and my little breaking heart was not a concern and that I should not have expected him to care how I felt – He was disappointed in me personally for my ignorance and wanting Him to care about me and my feelings, my life.
Gee I packed a lot of livin’ into that 2 seconds of realization didn’t I? But I wasn’t aware of most of this. For decades I would involuntarily replay in my mind a little mental film clip of walking into her room and seeing her for those two seconds; I knew it was an unpleasant memory, and I knew it was the moment I lost real hope for her recovery but I didn’t know why my mind would play this nasty little film clip for me.
Because of counseling (seeing a psychologist) and the Christian book/series titled “A Purpose Driven Life”, I decided to investigate that little film clip. My prayer was simple – something like “God – show me because I really don’t get it. I don’t understand why I still have that image in my head. Am I hiding something? From myself? From you? No matter how horrible it might be – show me.” And He did. Can I say here just how surprised I was?
I started by writing and focusing on any little phrase that hurt more than the others – describing the events surrounding that period of my life (mother’s death) and asking myself what it meant to me, how I felt. The horrible mess just sort of falling out with my angry tears. All the lies I listed above – all came out in a horrible heart shattering mess of tears (and this happened 25 years ago! I was sure I was really done with all that). I worked through the lies and my deep feelings of guilt with God until I was only left with the worst. In furious pain I said “Ok Ok so you have shown me all of that and why I was wrong but You have to understand what I was going through! YOU don’t know what (insert my shrieking and crying here) it’s like to see your family member tortured to death!” Uh…yeah….I said THAT to God…and I meant it. Now….as soon as I said that the absurdity hit me…and I mumbled something like “except for the crucifixion of your Son and all……….” And I was mortified. (I would also come to realize that on those occasions that I prayed that God would take my life in exchange for my mother’s – I was insulting Him by implying that He had taken a hostage and I was attempting to negotiate with Him for her release (like in the movies when someone says “Let the girl go! Take me instead!”))
The finish of that night, the repair to my heart, the only thing I could accept – was when I said to God “Ok so I know You loved your Son, and You let Him die and He died that horrible horrible way, so the fact that you let my mother die doesn’t mean You didn’t love her. You loved them both, you allowed them both die even though it broke your heart – and it wasn’t for lack of love.”
This was a small foundation piece to some of my low self esteem. First there’s the false and hidden believe that my spiritual weakness (insufficient faith) resulted in my mother’s death. This doesn’t make one feel good about oneself. Then there’s the false belief that God doesn’t love me BECAUSE He knows me better than anyone else – He knows the ‘real’ me and He who loves unconditionally – doesn’t love me? Soooooo I guess that makes me a real winner, eh? Lemme say that after several months of working on eradicating many varieties of guilt and anger etc. – I emerged with a little less to hide about myself and I began to experience ‘actual’ sleep like ‘normal’ people. AND I HAVE NEVER HAD THAT NASTY LITTLE 2 SECOND FILM CLIP ABOUT MY MOTHER PLAY IN MY HEAD AGAIN!!!! I have cautiously tried to recall it but I really can’t.
(Note: Since that healing occurred about 2 years ago – I have had other issues surface that now trouble my sleep again but having obtained sleep before by resolving prior issues – I hope to work through and obtain true sleep again. Also – I found other ways I felt guilty/responsible for my mother’s death from cancer – some of which I only discovered by tricking myself. As long as I harbor false beliefs – well I can understand how I would not want people to know the ‘real’ me if I harbor guilt.)
Repairing this ‘silent rift’ with God has opened other doors that seem to allow me to attack the low esteem/SA from different spiritual angles and I feel like I am finally ‘getting somewhere’. A book I found very helpful is “Search for Significance” (Life Support Edition) by Robert S. McGee. It basically lays groundwork for me to stop trying to base my self worth on other people’s opinion or how well I perform. This is a slow process and I backslide but reading through parts I underlined is quick – so before turning out the light at night I can just read a few underlined phrases. Here are some that have steadied me on rough nights.
“We can understand that this hunger for self-worth is God-given and that only He can satisfy it. Our value does not depend on our ability to earn people’s acceptance, which is subject to change. Instead, its true source is God’s love and acceptance, which are unchangeable.”
“God freely has given us our worth. Failure and/or others’ disapproval can’t take it away!”
“The world’s system: Self-worth = Performance (what you do) + Others’ Opinions (what others think or say about you).
God’s system: Self-worth = God’s Truth About You”
“Any standard of performance-even a Christian standard-used to obtain a more positive sense of self-worth is contrary to God’s truth and is, therefore, an ungodly means to fulfill your need for significance.”
I also have a companion book to this one titled “The Search for Significance” (Devotional Journal: A 60 day Journey to Discovering your True Worth). I am surprised that I like this journal because I was afraid it would be too redundant to the main book. It’s in nice little snippets that you can read before going to bed. Here are two fav quotes: “Isn’t it amazing that we turn to others who have a perspective as limited and darkened as our own to discover our worth?” and “The truth is that Your approval is far more important than the opinions of those who stand on the sidelines of my life, for or against me.”
I have not finished either book. I may never finish either – I am just ‘in it’ for what helps me get through the day, week etc. and they have helped thus far. Reading your post started me thinking about the unknowns of SA (the knowing question of WHY?!) and of spirituality (the knowing question of WHY HASN’T MY PRAYER BEEN ANSWERED YET!!!) and about how my traditional plan of attack (fighting SA) really has been thrown away. Spiritually, God seems to be sending me off in odd directions and am now tackling things without knowing why they are important but learning that they heal wounds in me AND, as an important bonus, seem to be eroding the barriers to self esteem – the indirect and winding path to recovery. Or so it seems.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Random,
It is very late here and I haven't had access to the computer until now, so I'll make only a very short reply to your post and will read it later when I can give it proper attention.

Just for now, I wanted to pluck-out the line you quoted that went...
"Isn't it amazing that we turn to others who have a perspective as limited and darkened as our own to discover our worth?'

...this strikes me as being one of those amazing truths; and I've even seen it before my self. Yet it is like 'faith' in that you can know this to be true but still doubt your knowing it ...just like I have said to my self that those who judge me are harsh or even hypocritical, yet I still am offended and hurt by them and unable to really believe in my self.

Also, I have thought for a couple of years now that the world's standards for what is right/true/acceptable are continuously in the process of being broken-down and reconstructed ...that all of these rights-and-wrongs that we take for granted are all socially constructed. Or the truth is all relative.
And that following the pack, generally has no glory or real worth to it, as opposed to defining who you are on your own terms -with self-produced data and with morals that include who I am and are not based on what the world tells me is right (which, as I've said, changes all the time anyway).

.....but like I said: I like all these theories of mine, yet achieving 'self-actualization'/'individuation'/ getting into 'the Kingdom of Heaven', is certainly much greater a challenge than I was properly prepared for.

I'll get back to you later, when I've read your post and I am not as tired.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Random,

There is a fair bit to say here, and I've already tried to write twice but have been interrupted (either of m parents -who are currently separated- have interrupted me)

The first thing to say is that the nature of God and our relationship with this force of the universe -is always the central question to answer for any and every concern. God and psychology are the same thing.

And why I believe Jesus said: "...God... you show to the ignorant what you have hidden from the wise and the learned" and "Unless you humble yourself and become like this child, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven" and "Many try to force their way into the Kingdom..."
-is because God, which some refer to as 'the circle', unlike 'the vicious circle' cannot be forced into.

...Just like with social anxiety, we are afraid of not being one with God, where God who is 'all things' is the same as 'all people' ...and we have a fear of judgement from others, which is the same as a fear of judgement from God. This is like us believing that God's love is conditional, when as Christians we supposedly believe in an unconditionally loving God.

They say that you cannot know God until you humble yourself and admit that you do not know God. ...and without wanting to write too much- our view of God is our perspective of everything, even whilst our view of God may in fact not be the real God. Or, if we are truthful, we can admit that because we have anxiety we lack an accurate perspective of the world and with this our sense of who we are within it. ...Yet, this is nothing to be ashamed of -remember: "everyone who makes himself great will be humbled and everyone who humbles himself will be made great".

...Most people sleep-walk through life. We are no different from the vast majority, only in that our disconnection from others manifests as if our thoughts are more incorrect. Yet, the truth is that the vast majority of people think like 'socially phobic people' -since they are just as dependent upon the opinions and judgments of others for determining Who they think they are. And furthermore, a very select few of them have created a self for themself, but instead are just as dependent upon the approval and beliefs of others for their sense of who they are.

....Just as Jesus came specifically to save the lost and to bring them to conciousness and to what is the new and emerging truth. I believe that iti is evident that He knew that the lost were those with greatest potential to evolve to the next level in their thinking. ....All truths are socially constructed. Evolution means that all truth changes, and the only thing to go by is that 'truth' is relative -the Alpha and the Omega -and the relative truth (God) always changes. ...Just like this, only when we accept and humble ourselves to the fact that we are no-longer one with God, and that we do not know God, can we possibly begin to understand.

It is a real paradox -but this is just how truly delicate the vicious circle is ...push your way in the Kingdom -the centre of the circle where there is balance and harmony - and you become part of the imbalance.
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with humbling oneself to seeing how one lacks concious awareness and is still 'pushing' too much.

This relates to the thoughts we have about ourselves, social anxiety, and also your ideas about your mother sufferring with cancer and God's answer to your prayers about this. ....Notice that psychologists believe that affirmations are very powerful-? ...This is because they are thoughts that make-up our perception of 'All that is' -and, 'All that is', or God, is intimately connected with our sense of self; which is why God's name is "I am". Psychology's ideas about affirmation and the power of perception are EXACTLY the same as those taught by Jesus. ...Read the part where Jesus stated that if you pray to God and believe and do not doubt in your heart that what you say will be done, then it will be done for you by My father in Heaven.

....This is all to do with God and our ability to understand our relationship with God -indeed, our understanding of the vicious circle and the clarity and conciousness of mind we have to be able to know how to BE THE CIRCLE instead of being thrown about in the vicious circle. I have read that if you say:- "I want..." or "I need...", that when you pray or likwise have thoughts or make statements/affirmations that these are already granted by God. That the very statement of "I want...." produces exactly that. -That God already grants everything that we think.
...The act of wanting a thing produces just that: wanting a thing. And we effectively 'push' that thing away from ourselves.

...Remember what Jesus said, that what you believe will be granted by god. Or, as with our psychologists -that perception makes our reality.


So, basically what I am saying to you here is that mastering 'the vicious circle' so that we truly change our perception to then change our reality is the most challenging thing of all to do. That a very select few people ever manage this even ONCE in their lifetime. And that for this reason, we are to note very carefully just how truly difficult it is to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and not to feel discouraged -but that because we still have not reached conciousness to also become 'one with God', that this is because achieving this balance is very challenging and humbling ourself to this fact will be the quickest way of getting where we want to be -since it IS difficult.

....How challenging is is to truly change our minds (perception) and to think entirely for ourselves (individuation) instead of reacting off of what others think, and being dependent upon the approval and acceptance of others ... to become, or to realise, our self as God -the active and concious creator of our own life.

Anyhow, basically it is a challenge. ...but one thing that I have noticed recently is that I still label anxiety as 'evil' and still see it as something to 'fight' ...this means that despite my attempts to extricate my self from the vicious circle, I still think the same -my perception -my mind- is still not truly changed. ...So, do I really think for my self? Am I really independent, or am I privy to unconciously following the pack, falling into judging others that goes with this, and to likewise, judging my self as 'bad' for being anxious, sensitive etc -?

And calling something 'bad' in an attempt to push it away, just makes it come-back more; in line with the similar spiritual principle, that wanting something good causes a person to continue wanting it.
Psychology and spirituality are about changing perception so that a person is able to change what they see as being real and change what they base their values on, of good/bad and of what matters.

So maybe, our desiring so much to be one with God, which can be likened to the desire to be one with others (and knowing our place with others) is what pushes it away from us.

Anyhow, I'd like to come-up with more intelligent insights.
You probably are already aware of most of the above -but I still think that such ideas cannot be said enough just because of how delicate spirituality is.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Phantom,

Some of what you say reminds me of a documentary I saw about the brain getting "wired" a certain way, and that it is difficult then to re-wire it differently.

On this subject about identity and anxiety, I put up an article that talks about this in 'social anxiety' part of the forum.

....Like you, I prefer to think of anxiety as being about the question of who I am and how I fit into the world (specifically regarding how my sensitivity fits in). I think that it is most helpful and unprejudiced to look at ourselves as simply figuring things out, and as growing and evolving 'souls' , rather than as flawed or damaged people. -I actually think that the latter outlook on people with mental/emotional afflictions is small minded and mundane.

and this is another reason why I like the article I mentioned; because it looks at anxiety as being a step in the process of conciousness.
I like that. ...And dare I say it??!! ....I actually think it is closer to the truth!!

Muffet

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Phantom,

I know exactly the documentary that you saw -was it: "What the Bleep Do We Know?" -? ....I remember that there was a section in it that was about tiny tiny photographs taken of water (droplets); such photos were taken of water that was -blessed by Buddhist monks vs water that people had "thought bad thoughts towards" ...the patterns of the water molecules were the same for certain emotions (if I remember well). for example, 'happiness' had a certain pattern.

...It was an interesting movie documentary.

And I also recall the part about how the brain organises in a certain way according to certain thoughts; and that changing behaviour and thoughts coincides with 'new pathways' being created in the brain.

Speaking of Mozart, they say that such geniuses have 'full brain functioning' where pathways between the left and right hemispheres of the brain are established and well established.

It's all quite interesting.

As for your wondering about a person changing their identity that there is the danger that they can 'lose' themselves ....I think that if it is done in a certain way that there can be no such thing as 'losing identity'.
I mean, Carl Jung (The father of analytical psychology) spoke about an individual changing to achieve self-realisation and a new sense of self (identity) upon becoming aware of "both polarities" within any given conflict. And that conflicts can only actually be solved by "maintaining the friction between polar opppostes for as long as possible" ...this 'ploar opposites' I believe is simply what the person has realisd as being two sides of the self -or 2 sides of their conflict (conflicting emotions).
And in that way, this change in identity isn't really a change at all, but rather a better integration of who the person already is.
The only difference is that the person has gained a greater awareness of who they already are.

...not unlike how people say that we would already be in Heaven -only we do not see it; and, we are already Gods, only we do not realise it.