How quick do you believe SA can be overcome?

[charlieHungerford]

I think the longest part of overcoming SA is working out exactly how you suffer in order to have a plan aimed at overcoming SA. I know for myself it has taken a long time to really understand the way I feel/suffer, for a long time I felt anxiety and didn't ever know why. I don't believe its possible to overcome SA until you really know what needs correcting, otherwise you are wallpapering over the cracks.

But my question is, once you are actually working on a plan aimed at beating SA, rather than trying to understand how you suffer and developing a plan, etc - how quickly do you think SA can be overcome? I mean why should it take months and months if you can quickly correct the negative and irrational beliefs that causes the problems behind your SA?

The reason I am thinking about that is because I have promised to meet someone I like very much this summer, but I need to be my real self, which means being confident enough to be me, I just cannot be a nervous ninny and be some scared quiet nervous wreck and lose my personality and ability to make this person feel good and have nice conversations. It means I have to overcome SA in 6 months which seems a fair target.

How long do you think it will take?

 

[BennyFingers]

Hi,

I think you're more or less on the right track here. Everyone with SA has a unique reason for being that way so it takes a lot of analysis to identify your behaviours and your thoughts that perpetuate them - if you're doing this without the help of a therapist it can take years just to start being honest with yourself.

I do believe though, that the work is only just beginning. We are talking about changing behaviours that are deeply rooted in our subconscious thought. We've been doing this for years - it's our way our coping with what the world throws at us, we have years of proof that our behaviour keeps us safe. That's why we keep doing it, to do anything else contradicts our learning and puts us in danger.

Honesty, sustained courage and repetition seems to be the only way to get over this and it takes time. I'd wager, if you keep at it and actively throw yourself into situations that require you to face your SA demons, in six months time you'll be much more confident and well on the way to overcoming your difficulties.

The danger we face is that our SA behaviours are comfortable, like old slippers, and returning to them has its own appeal - particularly when compared to the terror of abandoning them. Stay strong.

The paradox is that to feel comfortable in the situation you've planned for six months in the future, you could do with a good few similar situations in between them and now to try out some new thoughts/behaviours.

Sorry if that all sounds in any way disparaging, I'm willing you to succeed but I'd recommend not placing any unrealistic expectations on yourself like 'cured in six months' - try to make a bit of progress each day and in six months I'm sure you'll be a lot more confident in yourself.

 

[charlieHungerford]

I think that is a really good response, very educated and true.

We certainly have developed such strong ways of thinking and that what we think is right that its just automatic and like you say experiences seem to confirm these are always right. However, when you question them you can see that maybe they are not right. i.e. I believe I am just not good enough for any woman to be interested in me because I don't believe I am desirable enough and don't look good enough and women never never showing interest in me kind of makes me conform that I am not good enough. But the fact is I never meet new women, I don't ask women out, I don't put myself in places for women to get to know me, etc. Would many men who are like that get lots of interest from women? Maybe only if you looked absolutely amazing.

One thing I am thinking about is how far can one go in overcoming SA by just changing beliefs? I totally agree that in order to have real confidence in a situation you need to know you can do it, habbit is such a big factor in either gaining or losing confidence - i.e. if you avoid something for long long time because you haven't much belief that you can do it, then this habbit of avoidance causes huge problems. Whereas from the other end of the spectrum - the more you do it the more comfortable you are in the situation, the more positive experience and reassurance that you can do it. But I do at the same time think that practice is something that should only be done when you are ready, and to be ready requires changing beliefs, to build up confidence, to have some belief in yourself, to believe you can succeed in the situation or around the person.

The interesting thing is to me is that all my problems come from negative and exaggerated beliefs and I feel if I can remove all those negative thoughts causing problems and developed a high opinion of myself, a high opinion of those things about myself I have always felt so negative and bad about and had a high opinion of my abilities to succeed then I believe I would overcome SA. But admittedly this is something so easily said but so hard to do, because you are so right, these beliefs are subconscious and automatic, to no longer think these things will require re-programing our mind and the way we think to such a different way to how we currently think. But thoughts on myself such as the self esteem and how good I think of myself must surely change from changing opinions and beliefs of myself rather than practice in situations.

But that does raise an interesting question - how far can you go by working on changing beliefs and the way you think, the mindset you currently have, etc?

I am off next week and I intend to work on my beliefs in huge depth, it will be interesting to see how much difference it makes, if its none then oh dear, that will be a little worrying.

 

[BennyFingers]

Okay, I see what you mean. But I'm concerned you're coming at it from the wrong end. I should say, I have no reference point here other than my own understanding of the condition and what I've read about how we construct our identities (which includes our core beliefs about ourselves).

It is my understanding that beliefs (at the subconscious level) are the result of experience. I learned to use these behaviours because they work for me. I learned to be superficial in conversation and preferably to avoid it altogether, because I didn't like letting people get to know me. I may feel sad that I have no close friendships, but that's nothing compared to the anxiety of revealing myself to another human being. So it's a core belief - the result of learning and experience.

I understand why I suffer with SA: I can see the causes, when it started, how it continued, what I do to ensure it continues, how I interpret events to confirm my SA beliefs, the thoughts my subconscious throws up automatically to undermine efforts to change.

Consciously, I can reason my way to happier thoughts. I can show myself that there's no basis in reality for my beliefs. This doesn't stop me believing them. The subconscious works many times faster than the conscious brain. Plus, it engages automatically in times of stress, so I'll act on my core beliefs rather than my intellectual reasoning.

Our negative, SA confirming habits kick in as fast as the reflex that tells you to duck when you see something approaching your head at high speed out of the corner of your eye. The seeing, processing and reacting happens before you even know what's happening. It's survival instinct.

You can spend a week intellectualising your behaviour and you can understand what you can do to break the cycle. But telling yourself not to do it any more is like telling yourself not to duck when you sense your head is about to be smashed in. It's over and done with before your intellect can take control.

I don't believe you can think yourself to better core beliefs. I think you have to hypothesise, then prove (and prove again, and again, and again) to yourself that your new understanding is true. Then it becomes automatic (like your old core belief) and you're cured (theoretically).

Unfortunately I think life beyond SA requires us to do exactly what we don't want to, over and over, until we can't remember why didn't want to do it in the first place.

 

[charlieHungerford]

Benny, you write really well and I cannot find fault in what you say.

However, we all suffer differently and my SA is created from my negative self image, not a fear of situations as such. i.e. when I get my haircut and wear my favourite clothes for example, my self confidence increases tenfold, I used to be extremely confident up until the age of about 13 when at high school I was ridiculed, insulted, called names, put down, teased on a daily basis for many years. I lost all self esteem and believed I was so ugly and so not good enough. I have made huge progress from my lowest point where I could not leave the house some days, I could not go in shops, I could not make eye to eye contact with people, I could not speak to people one on one without having panic attacks, I could not use the phone, I could not speak out loud in front of people. I have managed to overcome all of that and am just a million times more confident and my SA has faded considerably. However, I still have insecurities to sort out, I still have a negative self image, I think so extremely negative about my perceived flaws to the point where they are totally out of tune with reality - i.e. I accept everyone else as fine and good enough no matter what flaws they have - i.e. I see just a flaw big deal - no one is perfect, but because I suffered constant ridicule and put downs about my flaws to extreme levels, I have just lost the plot in terms of how big my flaws are. I even wrote on another post how I accept people who have flaws and how they look as being fine and good enough, but believe that if I looked like them I would not accept myself because of the importance I have been lead to believe flaws on me are. All of my negative beliefs I am looking to change in order to overcome SA is aimed at my beliefs on my perceived flaws and trying to believe I am good enough. I got SA because of losing my self esteem and believing that I was like a walking freak show, that I am so inadequate, inferior, not good enough, self conscious, self aware, etc. So I want to regain my self esteem. I mean to show how bad I feel about myself I won't walk past the office where this girl I like works as I am so ashamed of myself, feeling I am so inadequate, so ugly, so crap, etc. I won't have my picture taken or look in certain mirrors because I feel so terrible about myself. I avoid women, I avoid being centre of attention not because of the situation or fear negative feedback or my personality, but because of how terrible I think of myself. These are the negative beliefs I am aiming to overcome and start liking myself and accepting myself. Because I am not that bad looking but these terrible beliefs I have of myself leave me with no confidence. I know I can overturn these. I know some people will read this and be sceptical of this overcoming SA, but you have to remember this is how I suffer and indeed it doesn't do overcome SA all by itself but I will not have that negative self image, I will not be thinking I am inadequate, inferior, not good enough, I will not be self conscious, I will not be focusing on my negatives such as my flaws in my appearance, I will understand that my flaws are not a big deal at all, I will believe I am good enough, and a huge amount of the reasons I am so anxious will fade away.

I wrote on another post that I believe SA for myself is because I have a value I place on myself and my abilities to succeed in situations and I compare that with other people and with levels I believe I need in my ability in order to succeed. And because I value everyone as being fine and normal and I place such a low value on myself, I feel I am not good enough, feel inadequate, self conscious, self aware of my flaws, feel inferior, etc, etc and feel anxious. i.e. women I think are nice I feel huge anxiety, authority who I place a high value on, etc - are people I feel particular high anxiety around. Whereas people I don't rate highly I don't feel this inferiority I do around them and therefore not really anxious. However, situations I know I have a subconscious low level on my ability to cope, perform and succeed - I am anxious in as I feel not good enough, inadequate, etc, etc.

So in one week my aim is to sort out my extremely negative, exaggerated beliefs on myself on how I look. I mean at university I had some girls who were really nice, I don't look that bad - I am tall, in good shape, cool hair, smart, told I have nice eyes, I had a girl email me at work saying she was my secret admirer and I had never even spoken to me before, so I can't be that bad, but because of the past negative criticism I just feel so terrible about myself. Its got to be put right. i.e. meeting this person in the summer, if I believe I am good enough and not thinking hugely negative terrible things for myself, I should be able to be myself and have confidence in me. I will work on all the other things that contribute to my SA, but once I believe I am good enough I will feel I can put myself into situations. So it has to be done for me. It won't be the same for most other SA sufferers, but we all suffer uniquely.

 

[smof]

Hey Charlie. I really like your posts, you come up with some thought-provoking stuff

I have found myself wondering something similar recently. I've been suffering from SA (or something like SA) for half my life, and depression related to it on and off for years, but I never knew what it was I was feeling until about 2 weeks ago. As soon as I did find out, and did a bit of research, and found sites like this where I could read other people's experience and see how they matched my own, I felt this massive understanding. Suddenly I could see where all the bad feelings were coming from and understand how they all fit together.

Since then I have hardly felt depressed at all (having been in a two month slump before that) which is a bit incredible to me. Obviously just working out such a major problem has lifted a lot of pressure. But I'm still feeling the anxiety just the same as before, it's just now I know what it is. And I was wondering to myself, now that I know why I feel like this, and what's causing it, surely I should be pretty much cured? I know I think negatively and irrationally so now I know that I should be able to stop. But sadly it doesn't seem to work that way.

I'm going to see my counsellor tomorrow for the first time in 3 weeks and I'm looking forward to telling her all the stuff I've thought about and figured out as I feel like now I can actually start forming some kind of plan to lessen the anxiety, or (more importantly) deal with it better when it happens. So hopefully I will soon start to find out how long it takes.

 

[thugaveli]

I think the only way i can overcome SA is by eliminating negative thoughts and changing the way i percieve things

I am a very negative person and i know i wont change, its not that i havn't tried because i have
I'm constantly throwing myself into a brick wall my thoughts will never change
I cannot control my thoughts, i can tell myself to think positive and i do but negative thoughts are so deep rooted they take over
It is also much easier to think negativly for me because thats how ive always been

Sorry for a disapointing post i just find it impossible to change or overcome

When i go to therapy and they explain how to manage my problems, i said its not "managing" its what i call "putting up with" and i can only take so much pressure

 

[charlieHungerford]

That is really excellent smof, I am really glad at the progress you feel you are making. I think its a fantastic feeling when you start really understanding why you are feeling/suffering the way you are, its fascinating and motivating and really gives you hope that there is real light at the end of the tunnel.

I find that the more I work on understanding why I am suffering this way I get ever closer to finding the solution. It does seem like a lot of trial and error, I have tried so many different methods hoping they may be the answer but they lead to nothing. But each time I soon realise they were not targeting what the real problem is. But I believe I am getting very close to finding the answers for myself now and I am so optimistic and convinced that this can be overcome, I mean just the progress I have made from fearing the telephone, couldn't look anyone in the eye, couldn't have a conversation one on one without having panic attacks to what I am now - no fear of the phone, can look anyone in the eye, can speak very well one on one to most people - still struggle around those I seem to place such a high value on and feel so inferior to - i.e. women and authority. But I will overcome it, I will never give up until I do.

I will be honest and say that before I started working on my SA which was 2 years ago, I thought I was just mentally not right. I thought I was sick in the head and I would never improve. But I don't think like that at all now. Anyone who was ridiculed by people over a 10 year period about all their flaws and made to feel like shiit and always put down is going to have some real lack of confidence in themselves, zero self esteem, no self worth, etc - I used to be so confident as a kid before all the years of put downs. I went into high school like the most confident kid from our junior school, and when I left high school I was too nervous to say my name out loud. I was just properly ripped the shiit out of. Where is the justice in me receiving treatment like that over many many years and because of it I am seen to be sick in the mind? Its not because I am ill in the mind, I just had no confidence, self worth, self esteem, I just thought so negative about myself because of my perceived flaws, I place zero value on myself and therefore can only feel inferior and inadequate to people.
At the same time I like loads about myself - my personality and my intelligence, but its hard to express yourself around a lot of people when you see yourself as a zero.

At the end of the day I went from being super confident to being a panic stricken nervous/anxious wreck because I was brought down to zero. If that can happen then the reverse can happen too if the right things are done to achieve it. At the end of the day its just thoughts and beliefs that are deep rooted. They can change, but you need to know what are the rotten thoughts/beliefs that are causing all of these problems. Doing nothing will achieve nothing. Trying to overcome SA by not getting to the core of the problem and changing those core beliefs is like wall papering over a bomb damaged wall.

Definitely definitely definitely we all suffer uniquely and to overcome how we suffer will be very different from the next person as we all have arrived where we are for many varied different reasons. Never give in!

Good luck with your progress Smof, I hope you can really start making great inroads into beating your SA now, hope to hear from you again soon!

Thugaveli - I don't know you or how you have arrived at where you are today, so its not right that I say you can overcome it as I don't know, where as you do. But you have shown so much confidence in yourself in that post - so much absolutely certain belief in yourself to FAIL. So its no wonder you do.

I can totally understand all that you say, I have been in each of those places many times in the past. But you can start thinking better of yourself if you do the right things. You are totally right also that you can tell yourself to think positive but if your inner self/subconscious doesn't think that way its just a load of crap, affirmations in my opinion are a load of crap, you need to change those deep rooted beliefs and telling yourself you are good and can do this when inside you believe you simply can't then its just rubbish.

But you must know that the way you think is so biased, so negative, so exaggerated, so unfair, I mean you probably never consider positives about yourself. You are not this really negative person you believe you are in reality, no one is perfect, we all have flaws. We are humans, we are unique, we are not robots with reject stamped on the side.

My advice which I hope you won't be offended me giving you is to understand 100% why you suffer/feel the way you do with SA, so whenever you are anxious in any situation you know why you feel like that and then aim to make changes to your beliefs at that point because then you will be working on the real root problems. I am sorry if I am talking rubbish for you, I understand I could well be as I don't know anything about how you suffer, I can only speak for how I am trying to overcome my own SA, but you seem a good person who has been trying to breakout of SA but not managed it and I just want to say don't give up.

 

[smof]

At the same time I like loads about myself - my personality and my intelligence, but its hard to express yourself around a lot of people when you see yourself as a zero.

This is really familiar to me! I mean, I believe I am fairly intelligent - no genius but I have always done well at school/college, and I am quite quick witted (so people have told me) - and I know I am a nice person, I am really patient and I try to be as compassionate and understanding as possible to other people. I like that I do not go along with crowds and I personally think I am fairly interesting.

But all this goes out the window as soon as I talk to other people! I become very restricted in talking because I think they will find me stupid and boring (even though I just said I feel like I'm intelligent and funny??), and because I am so stressed in social situations I often become hostile and impatient because I want to get away.

So I end up coming across as a totally different person to who I think I really am. But because I do it ALL the time, I get confused about if I really am who I think, or if this other stupid, boring, unfriendly person is really me.

I can empathise with you feeling like you were ill in the mind too. Because I get so confused about which me is the real me, and how the way I FEEL doesn't match the way I THINK, I started to really think I was losing my mind over the last year. I am fairly sure now that I'm sane - since finding out everything I have I can understand how I can experience these contradictions. But it's still easy to think "am I crazy?" on a bad day.

I'm glad you've made so much progress, it sounds like you're really going at this full tilt trying to work it out. Thanks for the support and good luck yourself!

 

[charlieHungerford]

Thanks smof that is really cool!

Its interesting because what you describe about you knowing you are a good person and good sense of humour, intelligent, etc, but at the same time it all goes out of the window when it comes to a situation of being around people. Its clearly some inner belief of yourself where you believe you are simply not good enough?

Can I ask you a question? If so, think of someone who has like an average personality who you know - i.e. maybe they are friendly but they don't have an X factor personality by any means. If you had their personality traits but you were still you in the way you think about who you are and situations and people, etc, would you still be very self conscious (if that is the right word)? I am not sure if that makes sense. I am trying to ask is it about your personality that you don't accept or would you not accept most personalities because the problem is deeper than that - i.e. if you believe you are not good enough for starters as a person and also if you believe that if you have flaws in your personality then you are not good enough and are inferior to others and its beliefs like that which make you feel so negative and self conscious about your personality? Aarrgh, I don't know if that makes sense. I know what I am trying to say, but I have not thought about it enough to make it sound like it makes sense. If you can understand please let me know what you think, if not well nevermind.

Thanks for the encouragement and nice words, I wish you all the best too. I am sure we will chat again!

 

[signs05]

When overcoming SP/SA, there are two parts. Just like when youre getting youre drivers license, there is a theoretical and a practical part to it.

You first have to analyze your thoughts, and change these negative and destructive thoughts. And then you have to apply these new thoughts in situations that you used to find 'scary', be it talking to a girl you like, or talking in front of a large group etc. Of course this should all happen step-by-step in the manner you find suitable. You should not overwhelm yourself and likewise you should not choose to try things that arent really anxiety provoking.

Some people try just changing their thoughts without changing their behaviour, they unfortunately usually end up surprised to find that in social situations their old and negative thoughts come back. And some people try just venturing into anxiety-provoking situations without analyzing their thoughts, which usually ends up making them more scared.

So you have to do two parts. A thing that most people do is that they think "After Ive eliminated all my anxiety, I will do this", not realizing that if they really want to eliminate their anxiety, they have to no longer postpone these things. The only way to overcome a fear of doing something, is to actually go out and do it.

 

[charlieHungerford]

Signs I completely agreed with everything you said up until that last line. Your post was really good and I know you and I suffer very differently, so what you say I cannot claim is wrong, but it is in my opinion not relevvant for me - i.e. Going out and doing these things. I do agree there comes a point where you to make any more progress you have to start doing these things, gaining positive experience and develop your skills and beliefs that you can do these situations you have feared.

But for myself its not about fearing situations its about the extreme negative beliefs I have on myself that causes all the problems. And its not like I avoid people and interacting with people so need to do more of it, over the time I have had SA I have been to college, university, worked for 6 years, had many friends, had a couple of small relationships with women, I have had to do role play on training courses, presentations at university, had to meet so many new people. I don't really see that doing more things is the answer for myself. My anxiety reduces as my confidence in myself improves. If I can overcome this huge negative self image I have developed I am absolutely certain I will beat SA in a flash.

I know subconsciously I place a value of zero on myself and feel I am just so inadequate and a nobody, so inferior, simply not good enough and the self consciousness created by this creates my SA.

I know a lot of people will not be able to relate to that but we all suffer differently and for different reasons.

 

[smof]

Thanks smof that is really cool!

Its interesting because what you describe about you knowing you are a good person and good sense of humour, intelligent, etc, but at the same time it all goes out of the window when it comes to a situation of being around people. Its clearly some inner belief of yourself where you believe you are simply not good enough?

Can I ask you a question? If so, think of someone who has like an average personality who you know - i.e. maybe they are friendly but they don't have an X factor personality by any means. If you had their personality traits but you were still you in the way you think about who you are and situations and people, etc, would you still be very self conscious (if that is the right word)? I am not sure if that makes sense. I am trying to ask is it about your personality that you don't accept or would you not accept most personalities because the problem is deeper than that - i.e. if you believe you are not good enough for starters as a person and also if you believe that if you have flaws in your personality then you are not good enough and are inferior to others and its beliefs like that which make you feel so negative and self conscious about your personality? Aarrgh, I don't know if that makes sense. I know what I am trying to say, but I have not thought about it enough to make it sound like it makes sense. If you can understand please let me know what you think, if not well nevermind.

Thanks for the encouragement and nice words, I wish you all the best too. I am sure we will chat again!

Hmm, I think I know what you mean. I have a poor view of my personality, so if it was different would I feel better about it?

Well I went and saw my counsellor today and we talked about quite a lot of stuff, it's definitely all starting to make sense a lot more now. It seems my SA and insecurity comes from very young, like starting right at 4 or 5 years old, and built up slowly till I was about 14 when it got bad enough to affect my life.

I think the original cause was my relationship with my mum. I have a very stable family, never suffered ANY kind of abuse, and I am positive now that my parents both love me. So in theory that's a great starting point for a kid which is why it's been so hard to figure this stuff out. But I think now that there was some kind of connection missing early on, and this reinforced insecurities that I had for some reason (maybe a normal kid thing)

But my whole life I've been telling myself I have no reason to feel bad because my life is so perfect, especially when you compare it to people who are suffering from abuse or trauma in the past. I guess I feel like I'm not 'worthy' of feeling unhappy, but because of how my mum acted to me I'm not worthy of being happy either. Which has just led to lots of confusion and more insecurity and kind of a detatchment from reality.

So I think my problem is down to my history, and the very first attempts and making social connections, which didn't go well but have been adopted as the basis for how I view people and me because at the time I didn't know any better. So I guess with that in mind even if I could pick and choose all my own personality and talents and looks and everything, and make a perfect 'me' that I could swop my mind into, I would still be unhappy and have SA, because I have never had validation to convince me that I am ok and I can be happy.

Well I don't know if that's what you were really asking and I've written way too much so I'll stop now

 

[charlieHungerford]

Hi Smof,

Yeah that is what roughly what I was asking. Please don't think I am making an opinion on you, I am not, I am just wondering if any of the following is true, I am just making a comment related to what I am thinking about my SA at present.

Basically what is it you fear people thinking of you? Is it that you say you fear being seen as boring and stupid?
Its just you painted a good picture of your personality - you said you are a nice person, that you are quick witted, you are friendly, you are patient and you can tell by how you write that you are a friendly and good person. You have a good personality, people like people who are friendly and nice.
Yet then is it right that you seem to subconsciously believe you your personality is simply not good enough?
There are two points to this: 1 - if you can't accept your personality when there is so much good, then its highly likely that you wouldn't accept having the personality of many, many, many people who you accept as being good enough. Therefore its not your personality that is the problem, its behind the scenes - such as beliefs about what you think of yourself and maybe what your beliefs about having flaws in yourself mean. I mean do you place a subconscious value of zero on yourself and that you are just not good enough?

Remember I am still just asking questions and not whatsoever making assumptions, if this is all a load of rubbish then forget all this. But if you can relate, then maybe you have blamed your personality as being the reason why you believe you are not good enough and inadequate but its not true, but instead you just have deep rooted beliefs that you are not good enough and subconsciously blamed your flaws for this? But maybe the reality is that there is absolutely nothing wrong you as a person, that you are good enough, but because you have believed its your personality and you have been trying to work on bettering this you have actually not have been targeting the real problem - that you have deep inner beliefs that you are not good enough.
Following on from that - because you don't believe you are not good enough and place zero value on yourself, that is why you feel inadequate, not good enough, inferior, self conscious, etc - which is why you are anxious in situations around people who you place value as being good enough on.

I don't know if any of that relates to you, probably not, it is basically what I have been working out about myself. Please ignore everything I have said, I only say all of that when trying to relate your problem to mine and we all suffer very differently so its totally understandable if that is rubbish for you.

But if that is sort of true, the answer to overcoming all your problems is working on those beliefs behind the scenes that are deep rooted that are telling you that you are not good enough and you are inadequate, that you are worthless, etc. They may be formed because of something that happened in the past to believe you are not good enough (like for me it was constant put downs and ridicule for years) and that has been the basis for all your thinking and its just developed and developed - everytime you have been deemed not good enough you have blamed it on flaws in your personality, but in reality they are not flaws.

Well that is what I am thinking about myself and I only wrote all of that to see if you could relate at all, I don't know you to know if you can relate.