How do you interpret this...?

[LittleMissMuffet]

I'm interested in wise sayings and spiritual ideas.

This one of Jesus' is one that I have been wondering a bit about.
And to help me along with understanding -or is it accepting!? 8O - it, I wanted to see what other peoples' ideas were about it's meaning and how the concept applies to social anxiety.

(And, if you have some thing against religion for whatever reason, then, just for now, hypothetically assume the saying is correct ....just for the sake of exploring the answer that it gives.)

Here is the saying.....

"If you forgive others the wrongs they have done to you, your Father in Heaven will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others the wrongs they have done, then God will not forgive you."


...thoughts on what this means for social anxiety...?

I have some ideas, but.... :?

 

[Y]

Well...

You know thats not really a real saying of Jesus, since all Bibles were written by human. (many years after Jesus died) So those are made up. And isnt it obvious dont you think that its a made up saying, sorry littlemissmuffet but that is not how it has to be, that is not right.

It is our right not to forgive people for what theyve done to us, and in Islam, it says, even God doesnt have the right to forgive people in behalf of us. And in judgement day, God will ask us if we forgive them or not and thats called something like "human right" in Islam (well thats not the exact translation but thats the closest i can think of). So the sins that we do to others are not to be forgiven no matter how much we pray to God.

I may forgive someone or not, yes its always good to be forgiving, and according to Islam itll even be awarded more to be forgiving, but itll never be punished not to forgive someone. Its insane! So everyone is free do anything to me and i have to forgive them or else ill be punished??? What about them? Thats not justice.

 

[Sacrament]

Religion is funny because it comes up with 'sayings' like the one you've quoted and people actually buy them.

 

[Some_guy]

"If you forgive others the wrongs they have done to you, your Father in Heaven will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others the wrongs they have done, then God will not forgive you."

So.. us, as humans are supposed to forgive other people's sins. But the God allmighty, he decides to send the sinners to hell.

lol. God is a funny b*tch

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

... :wink: O.K., maybe including that -alleged (for Y) -saying of Jesus wasn't the best of all ideas.

I just thought of exploring possible meanings and implications that it could have, in the event that it were in actual fact accurate.
It was more an invitation for discussion about Cause and Effect and different ways of looking at our situation.

Maybe it is better to think about such questions on one's own.

Yet, I think that forgiveness -when it is done properly- actually takes away pain from the person; and that it isn't about pardoning someone who may have truly abused you, but about making it so that that person can no longer hold power on your life. And that, rather than being about putting the blame on the victim or the sufferer, that forgiving wrongs -which has to be done properly- actually absolves any power differences, so that a person finally rids themself of feeling hurt or powerless in relation to others.

I don't think that it is about putting blame on the sufferer -in fact, I understand that forgiving others is done because a person can see things in a new perspective. Well, that actually these two complement each other. But I also think that before a person can forgive others, they need to have seen their situation in a new light and actually feel within themselves that they have largely gotten over what was troubling them.

But then, when a person can see themselves and others with a new perspective, they then want to forgive others their sins -and this is because their new perspective puts who they are in the most positive light possible. And they have healed enough to no longer believe themselves victimised or in any other way disadvantaged or lesser than others. And then they choose to forgive other people because they know that forgiving others goes hand in hand with their new and much much stronger idea of who they are.


....But anyhow, spirituality and religion are very subject to interpretation ...in fact they have to be, since the very subject that they discuss is individual perception it self.
So, yeah, maybe I've trodden on the line and perhaps these things really need to be thought of by the individual and this respected.
Actually, I think that that is generally best.

 

[Jack-B]

Muffy,

Jesus was so cool, i love this!

"If you forgive others the wrongs they have done to you, your Father in Heaven will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others the wrongs they have done, then God will not forgive you."

To my mind this means that if you wipe a dirty mirror with a dirty rag, the mirror will still be dirty. So use a clean rag.

So if you clean your mind (mirror) of the wrongs others have done to you (dirt), by forgiveness (clean rag), then this actually purifies your mind of the harm of the wrongs you received (dirt), thus the reflection of your mind will be clear.

But if you dont forgive, then God, as a reflection of your purest nature cant forgive you because your mind will still reflect dirt.

Jack

 

[june]

To me this saying means that we should forgive the little things because in the end God will forgive us of all of the big things we have done. It doesn't mean that the person who did the wrong won't receive the punishment, it is in fact saying that we will allow God to deal out justice. Forgiveness benifts the forgiver more, it allows them to let go of all the pain and anger, but it doesn't mean they become a victim and keep going back to the person that harmed them.
Anyway that's my take on that scripture

 

[frizboy]

"If you forgive others the wrongs they have done to you, your Father in Heaven will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others the wrongs they have done, then God will not forgive you."

As a lay man, with no allegiance to any religion in particular or any formal theological training in the Christian tradition, I give you this interpretation: "If you forgive others, God will forgive you. If you don't, then God won't forgive you." I guess that's an obvious, literal translation. But without reading anything into it, basically, it just seems to be laying out the necessary and sufficient conditions for receiving forgiveness from God. In other words, if you take both of these sentences as conditionals, you can derive a biconditional using a logical proof: "If and only if you forgive others, God will forgive you." Of course, to get there, you derive the equally interesting statement (from premise 2): "If God forgives you, you will forgive others." All of this comes from this passage, taken only literally.

If you believe in a God that works through us, then what this last statement says is that God can pardon your sins, and then you will be inspired to forgive the sins of others. Of course, if you don't believe in God, or don't care about His/Her forgiveness, then it really doesn't matter a whole lot.

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Interesting interpretations.

It is basically like saying that our own mind mirrors the minds of others ...almost like saying that there is the 'mind' and the 'Mind'.
Where the 'mind' is our mind split from those of others, and the 'Mind' that is the union of our judgements and those of others.

There are other similar sayings of Jesus, like

"What you permit on earth will be permitted in Heaven; and what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in Heaven"

and...

"Take the log out of your own eye and they you will see clearly enough to take the pick out of your neighbour's eye"

...which is talking about how our own perception of reality is blurred by the fact that we see things firstly from our own point of view. And that to see clearly -to no-longer be blind- we need to cultivate our ability to 'put two sides' (two minds) together. ...God is objective, so to have God's mind, a mind lacking in bias and false judgement, we'd have to develop this new mind's eye.

(This creation of the '3rd' opinion, is referred to 'individuation' by Jung and in philosophy, for example, they seem to use terms like 'speculative thought' and talk a lot about how object and one's experience of the object are inseparable -that our view of some thing is effected by ourself -we are "subjective in our objective view" -I think is how it's termed...)

Jackb: I always like your ideas. And your use of the word 'mirror' is great. ...this reminds me of how some use the words 'mind' and 'Mind', that the first is our current/redundant perception of what is real (and who we are) and the second, the Mind, is a new perception that better fits what is true and who we are in relationship with others (two minds/two mirrors made one). ...basically you are saying the same things as many philosophers and spiritualists.

Frizboy... you make an intelligent point.
You seem to be saying that God forgiving us can only essentially be our own mind forgiving us.
Since our view of God is only our perception of what exists (what 'is') ....some have rightly figured-out that 'God' is in fact 'the mind'.

And that when we have forgiven ourselves (through our perception of what is real and acceptable), it is only an extension of our sense of self to then forgive others their false judgements of us. Like saying that when we are confident and accepting of who we are, nolonger ashamed of our shortcomings, that then we can see through others' negative views of ourselves just as we are able to see through our own doubts about ourselves.

You are also making the clever connection between forgiveness of self (change in perception, our mind forgiving who we are = God's forgiveness) and our ability to forgive others' judgements of us; ie:- That it would work both ways.

Jesus seems to be suggesting that we take the initiative somewhat and take control; and forgive others in order to forgive ourselves.

...Yet, he is also a complicated man. Since he talks in metaphors so "those who have eyes, let them see" and "those who have ears, let them hear"
...Sayings like this make me think that it is much easier -and much less difficult- to forgive others when a person first feels sure enough of who they themselves are.

In fact, I've read that first comes belief in the self and then forgiveness of others enhances this belief in the self. ...That 'finding the Kingdom of Heaven' is like finding real confidence and losing shame and self-doubt.
And I think that this is a a process of 'coming into oneself'. I think that Jesus talked in code because he wanted people to know such ultimate truths (and that there are no victims in the world just as they are not themselves an unfortunate to be pitied) when they were confident and had developed a sense of who they are in the world.

I think that he didn't want to interfere with this process. And that there is skill and a great understanding of what to say and who to say it to.

"A person who has something will be given more, but a person who has nothing, even the little he has will be taken away from him" ...I think that he interferes only in a very careful manner.

....Perhaps, if you or anyone else could -you could answer as to exactly why he does this -since I only have a small understanding and appreciation in why he is careful in what he communicates and to whom.

One way or another: A person has to love how openminded he is and how he sees who a person is as being more than what they seem and more than their apparent limitations. He seems to see people in terms of going through a process of developing identity and change -rather than as 'failures' or as 'winners'. I have to love that. ...that's truly believing in your self, isn't it! -Forgiving others their sins and their shortcomings...

 

[frizboy]

Well now... that was a very interesting interpretation of my interpretation (of course, anyone who's taken a freshman logic class could have derived the same formulas I did). I was just doodling a proof on scratch paper. But I'm glad it resonated with you.

 

[Shyguest]

Hi,

Another thing to consider is this. That in order for us to be forgiven, we have to repent of our sins to God and ask for forgiveness. Therefore, is it possible that when people do wrong to us we are only expected to forgive them when they admit they have done wrong. Any suggestions?

 

[LittleMissMuffet]

Hi Shyguest,

I think that is a good point.
And I think that forgiving others goes hand-in-hand with being sure of the errors they make. That when a person is really sure of who they are and where they stand, that they can see the difference between what is fair and unfair. ...we would not take things personally if we were really sure of where we stood.

Mostly I think that first a person needs to know clearly who they are, what matters to them and what is not important -so that then they can let go mre easily the little things and work on what matters. And until then, a person cannot tell the difference between what matters and what doesn't -and little attacks to their ego register as more significant. A person can't gauge what's real and what matters from what is false and unimportant.

Just as if we take to heart some criticism or offence based on something superficial -we actually give power to this and it shows that we are not sure of who we are and what is of real value about us. -If we knew just who we were and where we stood, we would care little for what we'd recognise as little things.

And I think that it works in the way that the person has to 'make the first move' and take the initiative as far as what they want to pay attention to, what is significant and of value -and who they think they are etc.

So to be able to forgive is not the same as letting someone walk over us. It's more that we are so sure that someone's behaviour and judgment is invalid that we can see right through it.