Herbal medications Vs Doctor Prescribed Meds

[lily]

Anyone on the forum or guests know of any natural alternatives such as Chamomile tea, passionflower or lemon balm or anything else effective or somewhat helpful in reducing anxiety, and which ones?

I've tried St. John's Wart, 5-HTP, Tryphonia Max and kava kava, including others I don't recall at the moment and nothing worked. :roll:

 

[tecknohed]

post deleted

Hi jinxed,

Sorry for late reply. Just moved home & only just had broadband re-installed.
Anyway, the reason I mentioned Ginseng wasn't because it helps SP/SA. Rather, if you take a med which is helping your SP, but that same med makes you drowsy &/or fatigued (like I found most SSRIs, & clonazepam to start with), then Ginseng can counteract this drowsiness often without reducing the effectiveness of your med. Even enhancing it infact - you need a certain amount of (positive) energy to feel confident. But you are right that all herbs can cause cons too, even ones which seem to help at first. With Ginseng, especially Korean/Panax (red Korean even more so) it can over stimulate into anxiety, which is why its often recommended to have 2 weeks off every so often, or only use it for a short while to rejuvinate.
In Chinese traditional medicine, Ginseng is normally only a choice for the older generation &/or during the winter months because it produces heat in the body. Ashwaganda (I think) is a more appropriate 'adaptogen' for younger people. Siberian Ginseng (which isn't a true Ginseng) is a good alternative & a good all rounder. American Ginseng (a true Ginseng) is traditionally said to be cooler than Korean, more suited to Younger people & the Summer months. Though it can be too 'cooling' - I tried it once as another attempt the combat med-induced fatigue & it practically knocked me out every time! So maybe a good calmer to try on its own perhaps?

To answer your other quieries, this is what I've concluded:

For Korean Ginseng (also called Panax Ginseng), the best brand which you'll find in many stores is Power Health's POWER GINSENG GX 2500+ http://www.power-health.co.uk/GINSENG_SUPPLEM.html
which contains 30% / 30mg Ginsenosides per gel capsule & is preferable because it hasn't been dried (which might alter the effectiveness of a herb, especially such a complex herb as Ginseng). Also, it contains Panax C.A. Meyer Ginseng often said to be the best in the world - you can certainly trust its quality anyway.
But To go one better is to try & buy pure Korean/Panax Ginseng in 30-50g jars. This type, sometimes refered to as Ginseng tea is THE BIZ! Its consistency is like Marmite - thick & black. It comes with a tiny spoon & you need very little but BOY can you tell the difference! this is 'proper' Ginseng extract & is very strong. Its the best by far but is hard to get hold of. I first bought it in a (UK) Chinese herbal shop which has since closed down, yet every time I go to any other Chinese 'specialist' shop/dealer & ask for it, they haven't a clue what I mean & try to sell me liquid ginseng instead. Last time I purchased it from an Australian website. You want the brand called IL HWA Korean Ginseng Extract if you can get it. Heres a link to a site selling it: http://www.g-domain.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=31

And St. Johns wort? Lichtwer's Kira Standardised LI-160 one-a-day brand http://www.lichtwer.co.uk/stJohnsWort . I've tried many though not all, but this is the only brand which has worked (depression not anxiety). And forget the one-a-day, you really need 3 per day to start with, which is standard, and maybe cut down after a while. Unfortunitely, because this is the brand most often used in clinical trial, its also one of the most expensive at 3 per day. But believe me - IT WORKS! Give it 3 days to a week & you'll feel pretty damn good - positive, free of fatigue, need less sleep and even motivated to actually go outside despite any anxiety. GPs actually prescribe this brand in Germany. But it didnt last for me, & actually seemed to exagerate my anxiety, and stress within about 6-8 weeks. Maybe I should have cut down after 2-3 weeks.
Interestingly, people sometimes report different effects from different brands of St. John's Wort. Kira was certainly more 'activating' for me than anything else.
Infact many companies are now starting to 'standerdize' thier extracts on HYPERFORIN believing this substance may be (one of) the main key player in its antidepressant effect. Its now widely accepted that hypericin, once thought to be the major mood-lifting substance actually has barely any effect on the mind. However, many companies, Kira included, still standardize thier product on Hypericin, though mainly to simply assure a regular consistency of the extract rather than as a 'promise' of a guaranteed level of active ingredient.

Nuff said. (Ouch my brains aching :? )

teck

 

[tecknohed]

post deleted

No doubt my last post may seem a bit complicated, contradictory even! :?
I'll try to make clearer some of the things you seem to be wondering over:
Firstly, there are 2 main (or most common) forms of true ginseng. Look at these pics of the parts used medicinally of Ginseng Root - the 1st being American & the 2nd Korean - http://www.clarocet.com/ingredients/images/american-ginseng.jpg
http://www.kingherb.com/new/herbs/images/Panax-ginseng.png
You can see they are varieties of the same plant. Just for the record, heres a pic showing the medicinal part of Siberian Ginseng (not true ginseng, but is thought to be a distant relative): http://www.mdidea.com/products/herbextract/eleutherosides/siberian01.jpg
Here is an easy-to-understand explination of the differences between American & Korean Ginseng, found at - http://www.viable-herbal.com/herbdesc1/1ginsame.htm
"...American Ginseng is more appropriate for hot weather conditions as its energy is more cooling (although both are sweet and slightly bitter); while Asian Ginsengs can be used during the colder seasons, as they have a more warming nature. Or, in other words, American Ginseng is more sedative & relaxing, and increases "yin" energy, in contrast to Korean Ginseng (Panax) which is more stimulating & invigorating, and increases the "yang" energy."

As for combining with meds, I would only do so if there were a specific problem with your med(s) that taking a specific herb might help counteract the problem. Like in my example where if an SSRI like Seroxat really was helping your interaction with people & yet it also caused you to sleep 12+ hrs a night (possibly causing missed appointments, late for work, etc) & feel groggy during the day then adding Korean Ginseng might be enough to counteract daytime fatigue, energise the body & mind enough to 'think strait' & get outa bed in the mornings - things which will need correcting to move properly forwards. But remember, if it works & the dose is taylored correctly then it should be enough to correct any med-caused problems whilst the med itself continued to give good results as before. Think of it like each counteracting possible side effects of the other - Ginseng helps the unpleasant tiredness/somnia of Seroxat, whilst the Seroxat prevents the Ginseng from being over-stimulating.
This is exactly what happens in Psychopharmacology when using poly-drug therapy (or more) and is often a part of augmentation.

For the record I currentl take 3 meds :? : Phenelzine (Nardil) for my SP (became less effective over time on its own); Modafinil which was added 6 months ago, not to augment but to counteract the sedation/lack of energy caused by Phenelzine; then 3 months ago I added Clonazepam for my SP & possibly (hopefully) to boost any of the other 2. I've since upped my Modafinil to counteract the clonazepam-tiredness too! Interestingly, despite being a type of stimulant (mind only) it actually does wonders for conversation (notice how my posts are so long? :lol: ) + helping to keep the mind clear (a great bonus as sluggish thinking & blank minds are typical features of social anxiety - symptoms which I believe are caused by the illness itself-the chemical imbalance rather than a result of fear).
Basically, if you can do all this with carefully selected herbs, like with the Ginseng then I'd say thats a big advantage - cheaper, safer & much less time consuming. It just depends on whether you're willing to try & for how long. No gaurantees exist

Next, even though Kira standardise thier St Johns Wort on a more-or-less inactive ingredient, al this is for is to make sure that each batch is as close in botanical consistency to the next & last. As long ast thier quality of production & suppliers stay the same then there should be little reason why any batch should be more or less potent than others. Its really just a way of measuring. So really just because a hearb 'guarantees' a level of even an 'active' ingredient, dont mean its superior quality in any way. Ask any compitent Herbalist & they'll tell you that its the delicate balance between all of a herb's ingredience that sorts the 'pucka' from the 'chaff'! I believe Kira worked because of the effort & experties such a big (& rich) company can apply to thier products. After all, thier St. Johns wort was/is THE one used in the magority of the studies (at least in the first studies) showing its effectiveness using proper double-blind test with both placebo & many of the top subscribed antidepressants going at the time. In most studies it at least equalled effectiveness of the meds & all without the side effects. Now if all that isn't one hell of a selling point, I dont know what is! Yes, very rich company. Very good products too

Have I made things any clearer? Or simply confused you even more? :roll:

 

[tecknohed]

Glad I could help (for a change :lol: )

Yes you're exactly right about the yin/yang thing.

However what the Naturopath said may not be so accurate :roll: . Think about it - the main aim of it all is to bring about BALANCE. So nobody is really more Yin or more Yang when healthy. Rather, we can become more one way or the other from time to time (or even chronically in such cases as SA). But once we recover from our 'struggles', we become BALANCED again. Not Yin nor Yang.

Its a very delicate balance of course but will become much more robust the more you can master it. My advice, if you are serious about going down this route is this: forget health food/herbal shops. Instead do your research & find yourself a good competent Chinese Herbalist/Therapist and trust in him/her to see what needs fixing in terms of yin & yang. And just as importantly, combine with a martial art such as Ti Chi or Yoga. Even these arts alone may help enough. Still, none of this is cheap.

Good luck!
8)
teck.

P.S.
There are some damn effective 'natural' remedies I've tried recently for SP. Wanna know what they are? :wink:

 

[lily]

A naturopathic intern has said that no one is exactly 50% yin or yang but only approximately, and that I was more yin character anyway so even if I ended up measuring up to a little less than 50% yang, it wouldn't matter but in the case i was of a yang individual, then it would be considered deficient.

I wouldn't be looking for a competent herbalist, it's really hard and even herbs can be toxic if used continuously. I also doubt it would help the condition but thanks.

 

[tecknohed]

Jinxed

I quite like the taste of Ginseng - Korean Ginseng anyway. If you ever get to try the pure treacle-like extract, try taking a spoonfull of it neat - kinda tastes bit like marmite (looks like it too) but no-where near as salty. More sweetish instead.

The only American Ginseng I've tried was GNC's own brand. I think the reason it made me so drowsy was cause I was taking an SSRI (Citalopram) wich was itself making me drowsy. And because I'd tried several brands of Korean Ginseng at various times, I thought I'd try the American one. And although most poeple probably wont notice such an immediate sedative effect, because I was already drowsy from the drug, combined together it was enough to knock me out.

But I agree with you that it would be hard to find professionally competent herbalist, or any other natural therapist thats going to have both the knowledge & patients to deal with an SP sufferer. I'm gonna stick with my pdoc & the drugs he gives me 8O

Oh, those 2 'natural' :lol: remedies are something I tried several months ago actually but are definitely worth a look at. Firstly theres Picamilon which is [chemically] GABA (gamma-aminobyturic acid, the N-transmitter benzos increase in the brain) bonded to Niacin (vitamin B3). When taken on its own, GABA cannot cross the blood-brain barrier easily, if at all. But bonded to Niacin it does this quite well. So well many people have been ravin' on about it & it has many devoties including some SP sufferers. Personally, I found that it is indeed chemically active yet it wasn't for me. Just didn't combine well with my other meds, though occasionall at first I did get some good anti-anxiety effects.
And then theres Idebenone. Now this stuff is good! In fact I plan on getting some more soon. Its a synthetic variant of co-Q10, an essential substance thats found in every cell and plays a vital role in energy production.
But being a chemical 'variant' means Idebenone acts differently. Firstly, its anti-oxidant value is at least ten-fold that of co-Q10's. But on top of that it has a whole list of benefits, many of which help with brain fuction.
Its claimed to raise not only Seretonin but Dopamine as well! (we all need more of that ). And I can definitely say I felt its Dopamine boost. It also has a host of beneficial effects on consentration & memory.
It can be expensive, especially when purchased as capsules, and if you live in UK then you'll have to order it from the States. But worry not, as I've fount good sites that sell it as bulk powder. And you can safely take 500mg/day though most capsule come as 50mg, which by the way you probably wont feel any benefits from. 150mg 2 x day is a good start. Heres where I get mine:
http://www.1fast400.com/?products_id=1659

teck

 

[anxiousmouse]

I have recencly changed from paxil to natural ginseng extract. If you mix the ginseng with some honey, you will get not only the good taste but it will act on your body quite simply. I have beenon fish oils too. My actual Gf believes in spiritual healing as being THE way of healing. She helped me in the transition of chemical to natural herbal.