pinkputter
Well-known member
Life is so weird sometimes!!! and funny.... and confusing....
if you agree lemme know so im not the only one!
if you agree lemme know so im not the only one!
are you confused about life!!!!!!!!!!
- Thread starter pinkputter
- Start date
SocialJustice
Member
The life is difficult, but I think there are people who have more difficulties
pinkputter
Well-known member
phantom ,
Are you sayin that people that have social phobia are embarrassed/quiet/shy/anxious/suffer BECAUSE THEY have a big ego????????? First time ive ever heard that....
Are you sayin that people that have social phobia are embarrassed/quiet/shy/anxious/suffer BECAUSE THEY have a big ego????????? First time ive ever heard that....
Tryin
Well-known member
Emma said:
I'm so confused that I don't even know if it does. :lol: But I guess so. Wow, what a bizzareness (I mean this so-called life!) :?
Damn, there are no proper words to describe this confusement. Right now it's pretty extreme for me. Wonder if it's because I spent so much time alone these days, in front of my computer, reading or listening to music.
But in days when I am not too anti-social, I am able to realize that it's not just me. Life is bizzare, okay. Everyone feels it. So what?
When I feel extremely confused, I usually lock in my room and cry hysterically for a few minutes. Then I take a deep breath (And I say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiDpMfEeo3Q&mode=related&search=), unlock and go continue living. Because life, as confusing, strange, funny as it is, is still worth tryin. Give it a chance and try to have fun.
Oh, I guess I'm changing my signature once again:
LittleMissMuffet
Well-known member
I agree with Phantom's idea that shy people are egotistical -but it is better perhaps for me to say that this is what I think is true for me, without speaking for others.
There definetly is a narcissitic element to my social anxiety. I believe that others have noticed how much I focus on my self in situations thinking that I am the center of attention.
Yet, it is a helpless kind of self-centredness; self-centredness is a coin with vanity on one side and insecurity on the other.
I think to explain who I am in the best and most accurate way, I would say that I am unusually sensitive -and that this sets the stage for me getting caughtup in my feelings and what is happening to me.
"Ego" is not a dirty word, as they say.
What would be wonderful would be to get an unbiased clear look into the nature of all people -like the view that God would have. I feel that with such a view, a sense of being weired and separate from the world would disappear forever out of our lives.
I think that all of us get glimpses of this clearer view of reality.
Think of any time that you have met a person who appears confident and sure of themselves, to later discover how once upon a time (maybe 5 years back) they were very shy.
One interesting observation that I've made before is noticing how some magnetic and charismatic personalities -the type that have that 'something special' about them- on taking a look close, seem to struggle somewhat with a shyness. (This isn't true perhaps for all such types, but it certainly can be true).
If I were to take a wild guess, I would say that Social Phobic people have an innate charisma and personal magnetism that is as likely to attract people as it is to repel them.
And this personal magnetism comes from the same source that makes them shy and apprehensive -it's an emotional energy and passion for people and relationships. Sensitivity and emotionality, when chanelled well are very magnetic, like for example how artists have the ability to draw people into their world and people like such an experience.
So, what is my point?
It's just that looking at situations and ourselves through a different perspective is not only more accurate overall, but also can help us to see through the current appearance of things.
If we were intimidated by a louder person or by someone who appeared to judge us negatively, seeing who we are through this different view can help us get past obstacles. If we made the connection between insecurity and vanity there would no longer be a sense of inferiority or shame, when it appears that in being shy or nervous is to be less.
Because if being confident and loud and charismatic are simply the other side of the coin of our own sensitivity, nervous emotionality, self-conciousness -we could not see to believe in a separation between ourselves and others. And where there is no separation there is no sense of better than or lesser than.
There definetly is a narcissitic element to my social anxiety. I believe that others have noticed how much I focus on my self in situations thinking that I am the center of attention.
Yet, it is a helpless kind of self-centredness; self-centredness is a coin with vanity on one side and insecurity on the other.
I think to explain who I am in the best and most accurate way, I would say that I am unusually sensitive -and that this sets the stage for me getting caughtup in my feelings and what is happening to me.
"Ego" is not a dirty word, as they say.
What would be wonderful would be to get an unbiased clear look into the nature of all people -like the view that God would have. I feel that with such a view, a sense of being weired and separate from the world would disappear forever out of our lives.
I think that all of us get glimpses of this clearer view of reality.
Think of any time that you have met a person who appears confident and sure of themselves, to later discover how once upon a time (maybe 5 years back) they were very shy.
One interesting observation that I've made before is noticing how some magnetic and charismatic personalities -the type that have that 'something special' about them- on taking a look close, seem to struggle somewhat with a shyness. (This isn't true perhaps for all such types, but it certainly can be true).
If I were to take a wild guess, I would say that Social Phobic people have an innate charisma and personal magnetism that is as likely to attract people as it is to repel them.
And this personal magnetism comes from the same source that makes them shy and apprehensive -it's an emotional energy and passion for people and relationships. Sensitivity and emotionality, when chanelled well are very magnetic, like for example how artists have the ability to draw people into their world and people like such an experience.
So, what is my point?
It's just that looking at situations and ourselves through a different perspective is not only more accurate overall, but also can help us to see through the current appearance of things.
If we were intimidated by a louder person or by someone who appeared to judge us negatively, seeing who we are through this different view can help us get past obstacles. If we made the connection between insecurity and vanity there would no longer be a sense of inferiority or shame, when it appears that in being shy or nervous is to be less.
Because if being confident and loud and charismatic are simply the other side of the coin of our own sensitivity, nervous emotionality, self-conciousness -we could not see to believe in a separation between ourselves and others. And where there is no separation there is no sense of better than or lesser than.
pinkputter
Well-known member
Yeah Missmuffett! Definitely!
Your post was so truthful!! Like a big part of my SA stemmed from me accomodating others for THEIR faults, and I thought they would like me more because that... or that i would be a better friend... or anything, I just wanted them to like me, which I guess in turn became like what you were saying, my ego growing but not in a good way... in my head I made it so I cared so much, I couldnt share that because in my head I knew they wouldnt like me "enough".... Ok not explaining what I really wanted to...
But basically we see those people who are only looking out for their own interests, who are arrogant, cocky, and have excessive amounts of hubris (its a good word... Greek origin meaning excessive pride, look it up in context tho for a clear understanding of it)... Anyways we see that and see what bad can come from that. We realize humility is a beautiful quality some one can have, but I think ppl with SA tend to confuse humility with self-deprication.... which is really false-humility.
Vanity truly is insecurity... It's nothing to feel guilt about as so much as it is necessary to just recognize and take action with what you have to change whatever is hindering you from seeing things clearly.
Thanks Miss Muffet for that reminder!!!
Your post was so truthful!! Like a big part of my SA stemmed from me accomodating others for THEIR faults, and I thought they would like me more because that... or that i would be a better friend... or anything, I just wanted them to like me, which I guess in turn became like what you were saying, my ego growing but not in a good way... in my head I made it so I cared so much, I couldnt share that because in my head I knew they wouldnt like me "enough".... Ok not explaining what I really wanted to...
But basically we see those people who are only looking out for their own interests, who are arrogant, cocky, and have excessive amounts of hubris (its a good word... Greek origin meaning excessive pride, look it up in context tho for a clear understanding of it)... Anyways we see that and see what bad can come from that. We realize humility is a beautiful quality some one can have, but I think ppl with SA tend to confuse humility with self-deprication.... which is really false-humility.
Vanity truly is insecurity... It's nothing to feel guilt about as so much as it is necessary to just recognize and take action with what you have to change whatever is hindering you from seeing things clearly.
Thanks Miss Muffet for that reminder!!!
LittleMissMuffet
Well-known member
Hi Pinkputter,
I think that (if you don't already) you should read spiritual books and Buddhist books. I think that you'd get a lot of their ideas pretty easily since you seem to have a knack for understanding such things already.
That's a really insightful observation -that people with SA tend to confuse humility with self-deprication.
I have some experience with what you are pointing out because in an effort to get past my anxieties I would try to accomodate for extroverted personalities and others in general. ...however, doing this effectively is harder than it first seems.
It's a great philosophy to view ourselves as One and to adopt a perspective that links extroverted people with introverted ones in an effort to bridge the gap. -By this, I mean, like how I said that vanity and insecurity are two sides of the same coin; and similarly, introversion and extroversion are also two sides of the same coin. Just as, for example, being highly introverted and feeling so different makes them have social anxiety; and yet their excessive shyness is also how they make a big deal about themselves (in keeping with insecurity about how they are different also meaning egocentricity). And this 'spotlight' that socially anxious persons see on themselves is very similar to the one that a show-off extrovert might put on themselves.
So looking at who we are in terms of 'self-centredness' can create a sense of Oneness with others, whilst looking at who we are in terms of 'introversion vs extroversion' can create a sense of separation and this in turn encourages comparison of ourselves with others and feelings of inadequacy about being different. So, judging by 'self-centredness vs self-awareness' perhaps, would be to acknowledge extroverts and introverts as equals relative to each other. This way we see through the superficial forms of arrogance and inadequacy -because, judging by the outside, it appears that extroverts are callous and arrogant, whilst introverts are inadequate and inferior. But, as we agreed, insecurity and vanity are too sides of the same coin and so, if we are insecure about being sensitive and shy and introverted, it follows that if we were outwardly extroverted in our appearance that we would have an arrogance and sense of superiority, seeing extroversion and superior to introversion.
...anyhow, I'm sure you understand such ideas. They're not that hard (they follow the 'feminine vs masculine' where here introversion is the feminine and extroversion the masculine, like for example how this same dynamic exists in sexual relationships where most people despite what they say nonetheless have a belief that feminine sexuality is weaker and will demonstrate this prejudice for the more strongly appearing masculine even in subtle ways)
Well, the main point I am getting at is that it is not easy to stay 'in the middle' and to believe so much in ourselves that we can maintain a sense of equality between two different ways of being in the world. It is much easier to fall into disbelief and think according to a sense of separation from others in order to "protect" ourselves. When the pressure is really on, and we feel a real divide between ourselves and others which we would in the case of intense sensitivity and/or introversion, it follows that we would flip into defensive mode and withdraw into ourselves and a sense of separation. The gap is hard to bridge obviously when it feels wide.
This is why your idea about not feeling guilty about 'not making it', not punishing ourselves for having egos or the inscurity to go with this, is a really clever understanding. Becuase what you are basically doing is understanding just how to 'conquer the ego' and its values of separation from others -the separteness of the "I" and the clinging to the self. And this 'conquering the ego' requires not actually conquering it; since this would be in line with your observation of socially phobic people erroneously associating 'humility with self-deprication'. To hate ourselves, our ego, is an act of the ego it self. It is still making a big issue about ourselves and also based on a lack of security about our place and worth -we still don't believe we are equal to others even in our (great?)difference from them.
IT is tricky to get in this place where we truly feel and believe in our equality with others. Jesus said: "Whoever tries to gain his life shall lose it and whoever loses his life for my sake shall gain it" ...where the 'for my sake' is really important. And who is the Son of God except the mirror version of our own self -the creation of our own mind -our mirror reflection in the form of an extrovert or whatever other opposite.
So, "making the two into one" as Jesus stipulates to do (in the Gospel of Thomas) is tricky and Jesus is careful to state that we must do this for our exact mirror opposite, which is to say that 'one side' must be made relative to the 'other side'.
That "if someone slaps you on one cheek, let them slap you on the other" is hard to do unless you are very sure of who you are. And it helps noone to do this without seeing and believing that one side is equal relative to the other. False humilty is not going to help -only true humilty will give us the confidence to truly stand up for who we are and not fall into vanity or insecurity (which are two sides of the same person).
But because this is difficult to do, your saying to be honest and observe when we cannot do it and accept this without feeling bad -well, this reminds me of what Jesus and Buddhists say. That this self-honesty and humbling of oneself is a big part of developing the necessary strength of character to be able to fully believe in ourselves and others.
and, if you think about it: if we can forgive in yourself false, or better to say- weak, humility and sense of fairness, then it would give us the ability to see through arrogance that others display towards us. We would be less inclined to get offended and would realise how the same prejudice and weakness exists in us. And this in it self would make us more sure of ourselves. We'd be building-up our belief in ourselves.
I think that (if you don't already) you should read spiritual books and Buddhist books. I think that you'd get a lot of their ideas pretty easily since you seem to have a knack for understanding such things already.
That's a really insightful observation -that people with SA tend to confuse humility with self-deprication.
I have some experience with what you are pointing out because in an effort to get past my anxieties I would try to accomodate for extroverted personalities and others in general. ...however, doing this effectively is harder than it first seems.
It's a great philosophy to view ourselves as One and to adopt a perspective that links extroverted people with introverted ones in an effort to bridge the gap. -By this, I mean, like how I said that vanity and insecurity are two sides of the same coin; and similarly, introversion and extroversion are also two sides of the same coin. Just as, for example, being highly introverted and feeling so different makes them have social anxiety; and yet their excessive shyness is also how they make a big deal about themselves (in keeping with insecurity about how they are different also meaning egocentricity). And this 'spotlight' that socially anxious persons see on themselves is very similar to the one that a show-off extrovert might put on themselves.
So looking at who we are in terms of 'self-centredness' can create a sense of Oneness with others, whilst looking at who we are in terms of 'introversion vs extroversion' can create a sense of separation and this in turn encourages comparison of ourselves with others and feelings of inadequacy about being different. So, judging by 'self-centredness vs self-awareness' perhaps, would be to acknowledge extroverts and introverts as equals relative to each other. This way we see through the superficial forms of arrogance and inadequacy -because, judging by the outside, it appears that extroverts are callous and arrogant, whilst introverts are inadequate and inferior. But, as we agreed, insecurity and vanity are too sides of the same coin and so, if we are insecure about being sensitive and shy and introverted, it follows that if we were outwardly extroverted in our appearance that we would have an arrogance and sense of superiority, seeing extroversion and superior to introversion.
...anyhow, I'm sure you understand such ideas. They're not that hard (they follow the 'feminine vs masculine' where here introversion is the feminine and extroversion the masculine, like for example how this same dynamic exists in sexual relationships where most people despite what they say nonetheless have a belief that feminine sexuality is weaker and will demonstrate this prejudice for the more strongly appearing masculine even in subtle ways)
Well, the main point I am getting at is that it is not easy to stay 'in the middle' and to believe so much in ourselves that we can maintain a sense of equality between two different ways of being in the world. It is much easier to fall into disbelief and think according to a sense of separation from others in order to "protect" ourselves. When the pressure is really on, and we feel a real divide between ourselves and others which we would in the case of intense sensitivity and/or introversion, it follows that we would flip into defensive mode and withdraw into ourselves and a sense of separation. The gap is hard to bridge obviously when it feels wide.
This is why your idea about not feeling guilty about 'not making it', not punishing ourselves for having egos or the inscurity to go with this, is a really clever understanding. Becuase what you are basically doing is understanding just how to 'conquer the ego' and its values of separation from others -the separteness of the "I" and the clinging to the self. And this 'conquering the ego' requires not actually conquering it; since this would be in line with your observation of socially phobic people erroneously associating 'humility with self-deprication'. To hate ourselves, our ego, is an act of the ego it self. It is still making a big issue about ourselves and also based on a lack of security about our place and worth -we still don't believe we are equal to others even in our (great?)difference from them.
IT is tricky to get in this place where we truly feel and believe in our equality with others. Jesus said: "Whoever tries to gain his life shall lose it and whoever loses his life for my sake shall gain it" ...where the 'for my sake' is really important. And who is the Son of God except the mirror version of our own self -the creation of our own mind -our mirror reflection in the form of an extrovert or whatever other opposite.
So, "making the two into one" as Jesus stipulates to do (in the Gospel of Thomas) is tricky and Jesus is careful to state that we must do this for our exact mirror opposite, which is to say that 'one side' must be made relative to the 'other side'.
That "if someone slaps you on one cheek, let them slap you on the other" is hard to do unless you are very sure of who you are. And it helps noone to do this without seeing and believing that one side is equal relative to the other. False humilty is not going to help -only true humilty will give us the confidence to truly stand up for who we are and not fall into vanity or insecurity (which are two sides of the same person).
But because this is difficult to do, your saying to be honest and observe when we cannot do it and accept this without feeling bad -well, this reminds me of what Jesus and Buddhists say. That this self-honesty and humbling of oneself is a big part of developing the necessary strength of character to be able to fully believe in ourselves and others.
and, if you think about it: if we can forgive in yourself false, or better to say- weak, humility and sense of fairness, then it would give us the ability to see through arrogance that others display towards us. We would be less inclined to get offended and would realise how the same prejudice and weakness exists in us. And this in it self would make us more sure of ourselves. We'd be building-up our belief in ourselves.
LittleMissMuffet
Well-known member
Hi again Pinkputter,
I just wanted to add a little more: you've really got me thinking!!
Jesus says that we have to love God more than anything -including ourselves and that we must be willing to take up our cross.
This giving up of the 'self' and with it vanity/insecurity so that we are truly sure of who we are and as a result, able to adapt to varying situations and challenges ....it is not easy to do.
Not only does he make mention of different people getting 'the message' to different degrees ...some are glad to get the message but it does not sink in deep, so when the time of testing comes they give up straight away... others grow up with the weeds and this is the greed and insecurities in life surrounding them so that their 'fruit never ripens'...and then there are those for whom 'the message sinks in deep...and they persist until they bare fruit'...
But he also talks about the necessity of giving everything up. That 'you cannot be my disciple unless you are prepared to give everything up'. He uses a few parables, one about a man setting out to build but who runs out of material to finish his building halfway; and the other of a king who is challenged in battle by another king. He says that if that King were smart he would realise that he does not have the strength to defeat the other King, and so, would send out a messenger to call a truce rather than be destroyed in battle.
And then he says that, in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he is prepared to give up everything he has.
...this admitting when you don't have the necessary strength, well it is part of what is needed to be able to be strong and face challenges. Again, this is an antidote to 'false humility'. And in recognising our weakness and lack of strength, we could accept the same in others and through doing so then meet the challenge of dealing with those who would otherwise injure our sense of who we are.
The Buddhists make mention of this as being part of what is necessary to 'make it'. ...If I recall correctly, it is part of the second of third "Noble Truth". -recognising how challenging it truly is to give-up old habits of mind and the 'self' that such beliefs maintain and that recognising this is part of achieving enlightenment and the ability to meet challenges that we face in our life!
So, yeah, thanks for bringing such a thing to light for me!!!
I just wanted to add a little more: you've really got me thinking!!
Jesus says that we have to love God more than anything -including ourselves and that we must be willing to take up our cross.
This giving up of the 'self' and with it vanity/insecurity so that we are truly sure of who we are and as a result, able to adapt to varying situations and challenges ....it is not easy to do.
Not only does he make mention of different people getting 'the message' to different degrees ...some are glad to get the message but it does not sink in deep, so when the time of testing comes they give up straight away... others grow up with the weeds and this is the greed and insecurities in life surrounding them so that their 'fruit never ripens'...and then there are those for whom 'the message sinks in deep...and they persist until they bare fruit'...
But he also talks about the necessity of giving everything up. That 'you cannot be my disciple unless you are prepared to give everything up'. He uses a few parables, one about a man setting out to build but who runs out of material to finish his building halfway; and the other of a king who is challenged in battle by another king. He says that if that King were smart he would realise that he does not have the strength to defeat the other King, and so, would send out a messenger to call a truce rather than be destroyed in battle.
And then he says that, in the same way, none of you can be my disciple unless he is prepared to give up everything he has.
...this admitting when you don't have the necessary strength, well it is part of what is needed to be able to be strong and face challenges. Again, this is an antidote to 'false humility'. And in recognising our weakness and lack of strength, we could accept the same in others and through doing so then meet the challenge of dealing with those who would otherwise injure our sense of who we are.
The Buddhists make mention of this as being part of what is necessary to 'make it'. ...If I recall correctly, it is part of the second of third "Noble Truth". -recognising how challenging it truly is to give-up old habits of mind and the 'self' that such beliefs maintain and that recognising this is part of achieving enlightenment and the ability to meet challenges that we face in our life!
So, yeah, thanks for bringing such a thing to light for me!!!