Religious debate

A theory just randomly popped into my mind today.

I have always wondered why did ancient people invent a place called "Heaven" that people went to after they died.
I know that many atheists believe "Heaven" was invented to control people - you be a good citizen and your reward "from God" is earning yourself a place in this truly amazing "Heaven" for all eternity.
If you don't be good - and do what you're told - you will instead end up in a really horrible place called "Hell".
But, you're not allowed to end your own life yourself, because if you "murder" yourself, you won't be allowed into "Heaven".

However, I was thinking about why is it still frowned upon, stigmatised and against the law to kill yourself, even today?

Why is a product that makes dying painless and quick for people (that already exists and Vets use for putting animals to sleep forever) not easily available for any human who wants to end their life????? :mad:

And I thought, there are soooo many humans throughout history that have had to live such horrible, torturous, and depressing lives - Slaves for example.
So, was a perfectly wonderful place like "Heaven" used as a way to make sure that Salves never killed themselves, so that there would always be hundreds of thousands of them available for the "upper classes" to use? :unsure:

Was "Heaven" invented to stop humans who hate their life, from killing themselves?
So a Slave knew that if they dared to kill themselves, God would not allow them into "Heaven", and they would miss out on spending eternity in this incredibly pleasurable place.

Do religions still exist today because the wealthy people and the corporations/businesses they run, need many workers and consumers to continually provide profits for their lifestyles?

Do they fear that if suicide is suddenly considered OK, was easily and painlessly achievable, and it would no longer make millions of people fear they would miss out on going to "Heaven" and end up in "Hell" if they did it, then 3/4 of the world's population would choose to end their miserable lives, and the wealthy would no longer have enough workers and consumers? :unsure:
Very valid points Blue. I believe you're in the right area with this.
I think first and foremost - as you say - its a form of control. In the end its about milking money and being in control for those at the top.
For everyone else in their system it seems the feeling of a god judging those who do wrong ultimately gives THEM a sense of power against everyone else, no matter how small and insignificant someone feels.

"I'm good, my god will love me. But you're going to hell!..."

Also, there is the personal inward security blanket feeling that believing in a heaven gives. This is where I believe religions where born. Out of fear of the night when we lived in caves, when WE were the prey. When life expectancy was very short and life and death not understood at all. It was simply a coping mechanism.
And people still use it to cope today because many feel a sense of hoplesness in their lives. These people I have no problem with. Go practice your religion peacefully.

Its the ones who abuse those people with the god story that I have a problem with. get them to donate money, then those pastors live in freaking mansions.
 

LoyalXenite

Well-known member
I'd say a part of why suicide is still not allowed is definitely the control aspect for sure. But I'd say its also because of the negative social view of it (ie. selfish, cowardly). Until people can actually view it without bias, or truly understand it, it remains a taboo and shameful thing
 
I forgot to mention the suicide aspect. There are a few sides to this I think. One is the emotional side when families lose a loved one through suicide. So I can understand when there is a general consensus against suicide.
Another is the financial damage it does to the economy. This is where governments look at it in a financial sense.
And then there is (in my opinion) the main reason. Religion. Religious control of people, and yes it extends into government (the law makers). Old beliefs, control and the church threatening to withdraw its considerable financial backing (so much for the old church saying "money is the root of all evil" hey?) and of course, their votes.

In the end it's none of their damned business what I do with my life. It's MY LIFE, no one else's. And if I decide to end it there's not a thing they can do about it.
Of course doing it in a more humane way would be the much better way to go but it seems some simply dont practice what they preach.
 
But suicide is not a taboo in many other religions. It's mostly catholics that condemn it. I think the main reason why people are against the idea of suicide as a valid option is because it cannot be undone and the result is death.
 
The Notre Dame cathedral. Sad to see it go up in smoke. Seeing a beautiful peice of historical architecture lost is just sad.
It's ironic that it was possibly the restoration work taking place may be the cause.

There is a French businessman who has pledged 150 MILLION dollars to help in its restoration.
I find it truly sad that people will give their own money so readily for something like this, yet when it comes to things like medical research, funding for mental illness research and homelessness.. people have to rattle tin cans on the sidewalk for your loose change.

Edit: just heard that 3 years ago the Catholic church organization was literally "begging " for money to spend on the buildings restoration.
Now... the Catholic church organization is one of the richest groups on earth.. why dont they spend their own money on it??

 
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LoyalXenite

Well-known member
The Notre Dame cathedral. Sad to see it go up in smoke. Seeing a beautiful peice of historical architecture lost is just sad.
It's ironic that it was possibly the restoration work taking place may be the cause.

There is a French businessman who has pledged 150 MILLION dollars to help in its restoration.
I find it truly sad that people will give their own money so readily for something like this, yet when it comes to things like medical research, funding for mental illness research and homelessness.. people have to rattle tin cans on the sidewalk for your loose change.

Edit: just heard that 3 years ago the Catholic church organization was literally "begging " for money to spend on the buildings restoration.
Now... the Catholic church organization is one of the richest groups on earth.. why dont they spend their own money on it??

Always been a sore spot with me that the churches have so much money but still insist on donations and being tax free and all that crap.. what happened to money being the root of all evil, if thats the case why you hoarding it!

And I definitely agree with you on the funding the restoration but ignoring the real needs of society. A loss of a historical landmark is horrible sure, but that money could do so much more.
 
In the local paper this morning...


"Pope’s dramatic Easter ritual
VATICAN EASTER After a harrowing year for the Catholic Church which was rocked by sex abuse revelations, Pope Francis has carried a candle through the dark as a sign of hope."


Oh well done.. I bet all those victims of sexual abuse feel so much better now.
More 'symbolism' and no real action from the christians.. why won't those in leadership positions at the catholic organisation take actual action on this issue and make a genuine attempt at righting the wrongs done to all those innocent children over many, many years?
Why do they keep dodging accountability? And why do those who follow this religion defend their leaders stance?
Walking around with a candle does nothing.

Anyone want to contribute and answer? (especially if you're a follower of the christian faith). Why does your organisation continue to avoid responsibility for it's wrongs of the past?
 
In the local paper this morning...


"Pope’s dramatic Easter ritual
VATICAN EASTER After a harrowing year for the Catholic Church which was rocked by sex abuse revelations, Pope Francis has carried a candle through the dark as a sign of hope."


Oh well done.. I bet all those victims of sexual abuse feel so much better now.
More 'symbolism' and no real action from the christians.. why won't those in leadership positions at the catholic organisation take actual action on this issue and make a genuine attempt at righting the wrongs done to all those innocent children over many, many years?
Why do they keep dodging accountability? And why do those who follow this religion defend their leaders stance?
Walking around with a candle does nothing.

Anyone want to contribute and answer? (especially if you're a follower of the christian faith). Why does your organisation continue to avoid responsibility for it's wrongs of the past?

The way I interpret their pathetic behaviour towards the victims of their priest's abuse over the years is; if they were, and are sociopathic/psychopathic enough to have been ok with covering up the abuse for so many decades, then why would they suddenly care now about what the sexual abuse victims have gone through?

Sociopathic/psychopathic personalities don't ever change.
If they were heartless enough to allow it to continue, (and they knew, they've known and covered it up, all along) why does anyone expect them to change from a psychopathic-not-able-to-feel-any-empathy-person, to someone who cares, now?
 
The way I interpret their pathetic behaviour towards the victims of their priest's abuse over the years is; if they were, and are sociopathic/psychopathic enough to have been ok with covering up the abuse for so many decades, then why would they suddenly care now about what the sexual abuse victims have gone through?

Sociopathic/psychopathic personalities don't ever change.
If they were heartless enough to allow it to continue, (and they knew, they've known and covered it up, all along) why does anyone expect them to change from a psychopathic-not-able-to-feel-any-empathy-person, to someone who cares, now?
I totally agree Blue. And on top of that, how could they commit that abuse and protect their own if they believe they will be judged by their god?
To me this is a pointer and an actual acknowledgement that they don't believe in a god and the whole judgment thing. If they truly believed it they wouldn't dare commit abuse and/or protect those who commit it, or they would truly fear going to "hell".
 
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Ok. Now I've heard it all.
The pope has said during his easter message (after walking with a candle for sexual abuse victims) that people need to "resist the attraction of wealth".

Yea you heard me right. Advice from the church is for us to not want to be well off.

I nearly choked on my weetbix when I heard that.
Does nobody see the hypocrisy in what the church says and does??
 
So much for the teachings of the 'good book'.. so much for being a Sunday school teacher..


A Sunday school teacher fed up with her husband’s porn habit murdered the 65-year-old by shooting him in the head.
Patricia Hill, 69, a Sunday school teacher who also worked as a nurse for 50 years, has been sentenced to 16 years in prison for killing her husband Frank Hill, in the shed outside their home after an argument about watching porn in his “man cave”.

The couple had been married for 17 years and Ms Hill “kept finding pornography stashed and hidden” in their home in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, her lawyer told NBC News.

Her lawyer, Bill James, said Frank watched pornography in the shed where his wife murdered him, which he’d referred to as his “man cave”.

Hill, a Sunday school teacher, was highly religious and had “felt like the devil was in that shed,” according to her lawyer Bill James.
 

LoyalXenite

Well-known member
So much for the teachings of the 'good book'.. so much for being a Sunday school teacher..


A Sunday school teacher fed up with her husband’s porn habit murdered the 65-year-old by shooting him in the head.
Patricia Hill, 69, a Sunday school teacher who also worked as a nurse for 50 years, has been sentenced to 16 years in prison for killing her husband Frank Hill, in the shed outside their home after an argument about watching porn in his “man cave”.

The couple had been married for 17 years and Ms Hill “kept finding pornography stashed and hidden” in their home in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, her lawyer told NBC News.

Her lawyer, Bill James, said Frank watched pornography in the shed where his wife murdered him, which he’d referred to as his “man cave”.

Hill, a Sunday school teacher, was highly religious and had “felt like the devil was in that shed,” according to her lawyer Bill James.
 

LoyalXenite

Well-known member
The Notre Dame cathedral. Sad to see it go up in smoke. Seeing a beautiful peice of historical architecture lost is just sad.
It's ironic that it was possibly the restoration work taking place may be the cause.

There is a French businessman who has pledged 150 MILLION dollars to help in its restoration.
I find it truly sad that people will give their own money so readily for something like this, yet when it comes to things like medical research, funding for mental illness research and homelessness.. people have to rattle tin cans on the sidewalk for your loose change.

Edit: just heard that 3 years ago the Catholic church organization was literally "begging " for money to spend on the buildings restoration.
Now... the Catholic church organization is one of the richest groups on earth.. why dont they spend their own money on it??

 
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