If you died right now where would you go?

[jesuschristschild]

do you consider yourself a good person? how many times do you need to steal in a court of law to be locked up as a theif....God must judge all your sin, if you have lied once you will be condemned a liar, if you have stolen once you will be condemned a theif, if you have lusted after someone other than your spouse Jesus said you commit adultery in your heart, and you will go to hell as an adulterer....i know this is a social phobia forum, so if you have made the thoughts of others the god of you, than your an idolator before God and will be condemned to hell according to the bible, i have fallen short in all of these area's, and am guilty, but God has made a way...Jesus Christ was marred beyond human likeness and hung on a cross, and on the cross he bore my sin, all the wrath of God that should fall upon me fell upon Jesus Christ...Jesus died and then he rose from the dead and now is ascended to the right hand of God...that was not even all the commandments.....but this is absolutely serious, nothing on this entire planet matters more than your eternal salvation....Jesus tells us to repent of our sins, turn away from our sins and put our trust in him, and we will be forgiven of our crimes against God....God will change your life, and God even gives us promises in the bible to reveal himself to us after we obey him
i used to be social phobic, but the Lord has been supernaturally healing by by his Spirit that he has placed inside me over time...i dont tell you this for the sake of your social phobia that you may be cleared of it, this is eternal life and eternal damnation, this is your soul my dear friend..
The Lord Bless You and give you grace

 

[xkiss_me_nowx]

i dont think that the bible is entirely true in what it says, its been changed other the 1000's of years, by many different people.
So who knows what to really believe?
I believe that if you put other people before yourself, dont be selfish, dont hurt people, and always try to be good. When you die you'll goto the rhelm that you belong too, ie if your a mean, selfish bad person, you will goto a place full of mean, selfish bad people too.
Where as, if you are a good person, and put other people first, you will goto the rhlem with people like you?
thats what i believe anyway.

 

[jesuschristschild]

the only questions really there are to ask from me to any of you.......is if God judges you by the ten commandments, will you go to heaven, or hell? and if the answer is hell, does it concern you? it sure does concern me for your sake

God in his amazing love came down as a man, Jesus Christ his son, and died on the cross, and took the punishment for your sin

if hell is only for bad people, and heaven only for good.....lets take a test and see if you are truely good....

have you ever lied? if the answer is yes.....then what does that make you? it only takes one murder to make a murderer, and a just judge will not let a murderer go if he did it at a young age and they just found him much older...so if you have lied then what does that make you?

have you ever used the Lords name in vain? then your a blasphemer...replacing Gods name with a curse word, the one who gave you life

have you ever stolen? what does that make you....in a court of law what does one theft make you....Gods law is absolutely perfect, so if you even stole small things, it is still 'stealing'

have you ever hated anyone? the bible says that anyone who hates his brother is a murderer.....you have basically killed them in your heart

i have broken all ten commandments...i deserve a worse hell than probably the vast majority of people who read this, but please hear me when i say i have nothing to gain from telling you this, i dont want your money, i dont want you to come to a certain church....im just telling you the good news that Christ paid it all on the cross

if God judged you by the standard of the ten commandments would you go to heaven or hell? dear soul, i beg you even to just ask yourself that, and ask yourself if it concerns you...and what your going to do about it if it does

 

[LA-girl]

Hi Jesuschristchild!

First of all I would like to say that I am very happy that you have found Christ and made him the lord and saviour in your life. And I know you are being sincere and wants as many as possible to be saved like you have.

What concerns me a little though is your liberal use of scare tactic (not that you do it intentionally), but let me ask you a question;
Do you really think that God wants us to obey him out of fear of hell?
When you focus so much on Gods wrath over sinners, all you achieve is creating more fear. And believe me I have first-hand knowledge about this as I last year developed an almost paralyzing fear of hell after hearing the story of some people who claimd to have been taken there for the sake of telling the world what a constant horror-scenario that awaits all those people who die sinners. I mean the scenes, explained in uttermost detail, were so horrific that every horrorfilm you see after seems like a Sesame street in comparison.

To make a long story short, after a lot of prayer, I discovered this sermon about hellfire and was called: "Cities of ashes?" And believe me, i am a person who prefers to stay on the safe side, which means that I was not going to buy into something just because it would please me. I want to know the truth no matter how unpleasent it makes one feel.
So it took me a while to finally accept this "new" teaching. But the evidences in the Bible were strikingly clear. Hell was not an everlasting torturechamber in the centre of the earth. I am not saying I deny that there will be a hell for sinners, and I am not saying it won't be bad, because it sure won't be a pleasent thing that's for sure. But I think that we as a christians should try our best to portray the truth in a biblical light and not what the majority of men say just because they have accepted, which imo, is a very false image of Gods judgement, not to mention his character!
I mean, have you ever thought about what characteristics christians often apply God?
Do you think that people who really gives this a rational thought can accept that God is a rightous and loving father who would keep his precious children, whom he created out of love, artificially alive for all eternity just in order to make there lives as miserable as possible?
And do you honestly think that anyone really deserves to be punished in unspeakable torture for millions and millions and then some years for giving into their fleshly sins for the short period of time here on earth? I mean it is quite a payback don't you think?

I don't want you to feel that I am criticizing you, because i have done almost the exact same thing a year ago on this forum, when I still had the "traditional" and not the biblical view of hell. But I am asking you to ponder on these questions and then, if you like, you can check out the following websites.

First of all I would advise you to watch this video:
Cities of Ashes

Here is a website that should speak for itself:


I believe that God wants us to trust and obey him because we love him and not out of fear. Because in reality when you think about it, love can not be forced and certainly not arise out of pure fear.

 

[jesuschristschild]

thanks for you reply LA girl, i will show you where i am biblically sound to defend what im doing...call someone a sinner and it doesnt matter...when someone sees where they are guilty before God then they can see their need for the savour.....read these scriptures and you will see what i said was completely biblical

the words of our Lord - Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

john the baptist said this - Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

he didnt say, who made you come to God because you wanted a fulfilled life..ect.....people are guilty before God so we need to let them know and to beat around the bush is to say things like "it would be more comfortable that you wear a parachuette" when you know the planes going to crash, rather tell the person that they need to put on the parachuette because the plane is going to crash

hell is a scary place, the bible calls it lakes of fire, where the smoke of your torment ascends forever....we need to warn people because we love them and care about them

let me show you more to explain how biblical i am, its only honesty

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

we need to warn people of the danger of dying without Christ.....Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


if my dad was going into a car with a bomb, why beat around the bush and say "dad you dont have to go in the car, you can stay out here if you want to" then he said "no i want to go in the car" and he gets in it blows up....and you never told him of the danger.......scare tactic isnt here, only truth, solid biblical truth

thanks for your reply dear sister

 

[LA-girl]

Hello again!

First of all I did not say that we should not warn sinners about Gods judgement, but when you use the word hell most people picture this hot, burning torture chamber in the center of the earth where sinners will be tortured forever. That is the traditional picture. What I am saying though is that I think it is vital for every christian to study these things out in detail, because it makes a whole lot of difference imo to give people the impression that the punishment that awaits them will be so horrible that they in stead start to despise God and view him as the worst sadist imaginable. There are also countless examples of people who have been hospitalized in a mental institution because of, what I would call, the most damaging lie in history. Not to mention that it would not be free choice, but rather a fire-ensurance. God does not force people to follow him.

I think every single person who profess to love God would want to portray their creator the way he really is, a holy, rightous and loving father and not with characteristics that one immediately would hand out to His advisary. That is why I think we owe God to really study these things out and base our conclusion on all the verses in the Bible that speaks about hell (which is mentioned about 50 times or so) and not just a few verses taken out of context. I agree with you, there are a few verses that can give the impression that the punishing will be everlasting. However, most verses that deals with Gods judgement of the wicked gives us a clear indication that after they receive their individual punishment, they will all burn up in the end. (Malachi 4:1, 3).

It seems to me like you did not examine the web-pages I offered, because if you had it would address those verses you brought up. And it is a study that will take some time and effort before you really get to the bottom of it.

the words of our Lord - Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, he could not have said it any clearer than that. Both soul and body will be destroyed (burnt up) in hellfire on the day of judgement. It goes hand in hand with vese I just offered in Malachi 4:
"Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire," says the LORD Almighty. "Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall. 3 Then you will trample down the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I do these things," says the LORD Almighty.

If you really want to be honest and biblical in the way you portray Gods judgement please take my advice and study out all the verses before reaching your conclusion. And if a few verses seems to go against the clear view in all the rest, you have to go to the source (The hebrew/greek/arameic scriptures) to find out why they seem to contradict eachother. Because let's face it, the translators are not perfect which is why there exists so many translated version of it. That is also probably in part why the Bible tells us to compare scripture with scripture when searching for a conclusion in biblical issues. Only then you will have a reason to imply that your theory is what you term as "solid biblical truth".

And how about focusing on the great gift of eternal life on the new perfect earth in stead of only focusing on the judgement. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" The sinners are not granted eternal life (not in heaven, not in hell), but they will after their individual punishment perish (die) and forever be seperated from their heavenly father. That is the eternal punishment.

After all we are talking about Gods reputation here. Yes, please go ahead and warn people, but at the same time give them a clear biblical picture of Gods character which also is expressed in the way he will deal with the wicked.

 

[jesuschristschild]

I have love for you and the last thing i want is a quarrel of speculation(the bible tells us to destroy all speculation) or a quarrel at all, i love you and care for you so i tell you this, beaware because when you say the things you say about the God i speak of you may very well be blaspheming the true God - we dont always know it all (God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble) please forgive me if i come across as arrogant, im really here to help bring people to Christ (this here i just studied now, no copying and pasting, please take the time to read, knowing that there is a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour)

WHERE THE NON BELIEVER/REJECTER OF CHRIST GOES RIGHT NOW WHEN THEY DIE

read this encounter of "the rich man and lazerous"...Jesus described a rich man opening his eyes being in torment after descending

Luke
16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

the word hell here is actually the greek word hades and in the book of revelation at the judgment hades is cast into the lake of fire...this hell is only a temperary holding place, this man after comming to this place of torment...the rich man was being tormented in a flame, and he would even beg for a drop of water for his tongue...and he thought instantly about his family members who would also enter this place if they "believed not the prophets"

another word for torments in the greek can also be torchure(basonos - within the context that its used it only means torture/torment)

Jesus said in the bible that he went to the heart of the earth before he rose from the dead...which in acts its (Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.) "PAINS" the Greek word "odin" means pain, sorrow, travail...other versions says "horrors of death"

the rich man obviously had a memory, many theologians have decided from this text that the man still had "the lusts of the flesh" so if you have addictions its possible you they will be there but never satisfied

there will probably be demons you can see there in plain sight - 2Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.





Where The Nonbelievers and rejecters of Christ go at judgment

this part is the lake of fire burning with fire and brimstone....according to scripture, it depends on your sins at how horrible this is going to be

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

this will not be like torchure known on earth...(LA GIRL, BARE WITH ME IM TELLING THIS IN LOVE, I AM NO BETTER THAN YOU OR ANYTHING OF THE SUCH, IF ANYTHING I AM LESS, BUT PLEASE LISTEN)
if hell wasnt so bad i wouldnt be concerned about going there -

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

God will make his 'power known' in his wrath on his vessels of wrath Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

after the judgment it will be a place of torchure that earth has never known...i do not fear anything painless, i fear hell though. because i know its a place of horrifying torment the bibles words are "its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".....Gods love is perfect, and more than anyone can love and wouldnt his hatred be alike?...you say how can God hate if God is love...well if God loves that which is Holy he must hate that which is unholy...and through Christ we can be made Holy

going on
if death was just blackness there could be only one death - Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

but this is the second death and death is a great word for it because you will never ever leave...the greek word for brimstone can also mean "sulpher"

whoever is not found in the lambs book of life(the people who have the sacrafice of Jesus the Lamb of the world) Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

you think in your heart possibly as a human argument "how could it be?" he will judge you according to your deeds and im sure that when you see God in all his Holiness you will have no doubt you deserve and eternity of hell...

hell was also created for satan and his angels originally....anyone on the left hand of Christ is the 'goats' and anyone on the right hand is his 'sheep'...the people on the left hand on Judgment day - Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

the greek word for everlasting here is "aionos" according to this greek -english dictionary it is a word that means perpetual, (used of past time, or past and future)- eternal, forever, everlasting, world(began)

basically means eternally enduring, never stopping....eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

offend thee basically means "causes you to sin"
Jesus threatens with perpetual fire, not lack of existance.....ect

according to the bible God is completely righteous....whoever ends up in eternal fire will 'rightly' be there....this world does not even know justice...if there was nothing to fear, then why would anyone fear at all...i dont fear eternal blackness where nothing exists...or no torment...i dont fear this....ect

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
this scripture is not warning of hades but gehenna....the word is speaking of a vally of Jerus, and its also a word for everlasting punishment...some people have tried to destroy this word because it was a garbage dump i guess from what i was told...but the eternal hell is basically that for God..Jesus was warning that God could not only kill but he could also cast you into this place....after your dead a garbage dump would not matter..this word is referring to the eternal judgment of God/ everlasting punishment.....

whom shall be punished in everlasting destruction is destruction that never ends - 2thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

now to finish this with many translations of one verse....dear friends please forgive me if i come across as arrogant, i have no intent to but rather i am despirate that you go to the savour...i dont need to hear from one of you...just go to the savour....trust the bible...and let man help you understand it but dont let him interpret it for you, but be careful because the Lord said luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

this scripture is telling us to becareful how we interpret scripture lest we dont understand it...

matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

now to finish with a scripture in different versions.(Lord i pray that this stuff isnt overlooked)
in the end whoever is not found in the book of life(saved by Christ) will be cast into the lake of fire - Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


now that you see that they are those which go to the lake of fire, lets examine many versions on what happens and how long you will be there

NASB: And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (NASB ©1995)

GWT: The devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were also thrown. They will be tortured day and night forever and ever. (GOD'S WORD®)

KJV: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

ASV: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

BBE: And the Evil One who put them in error was sent down into the sea of ever-burning fire, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their punishment will go on day and night for ever and ever.DBY: And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for the ages of ages.

WEY: and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

WBS: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

WEB: The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

YLT: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

the Lord Bless and please forgive me if i come across as arrogant, i only want to tell people the truth, im less than all of you, dont think i think im better than anyone... i just want people to know the truth

love you, and forgive me im such a pitiful messanger

 

[monkeycrud]

i haven't finished reading the all of the previous messages, and in fairness I should, and I will, but it's 2am and I really should get to bed. But I want to say what I have to say now. At least as a start point of much more to come.


jesuschristschild, i have an admixture of pity, anger, sympathy and empathy with you and all that you say. That you cannot comprehend that you are brainwashed saddens me. It makes no difference how 'biblical' you are, as you put it. The truth is, you (and I mean fundamentalist Christians generally) are simply unwilling to view the Bible in it's proper context. As such, you approach your claim to knowledge of God's nature back to front, justifying Ideas of an all good God which are inconsistent, by arguing in a circle that God is what the Bible says he is, and declaring that only that can be what is good. Well the Bible itself is full of inconstencies. Why? Because it was written by men. And even if, as I believe from an intelligent point of view, it was written after the events of, for example, the Lord's time on earth, it was nevertheless written by men, after the event, not by God, or by some spirit influence. If it were, surely it would make more consistent and obvious sense to all.

Just take a second to consider your notions of God and the Christian doctrine of 'God is love', and compare it with your abomination of men as sinners all. Then ask yourself some questions. Who made men? God.
Therefore how can I be at fault for the behaviour of one first man many moons ago? If you say, "well you are responsible for the wrong doings that you yourself do". Ok, but again, who made me? God. a) I did not ask to be born, and b) Does an loving, all good God create purely to punish the fallible sinful creatures he created? Surely this God would be more merciful, or at least more helpful? Surely this God would take in to consideration the circumstance men are born into?

I will tell you this. I am not an atheist. And I'm not a Christian, or any other "Religious" identifiable. When I was a young child, and moreso when I was a teen, I was influenced by fundamentalist Christians in a big way. I was attracted by the notions of love and salvation, and I "gave my life to Christ" etc. Ten plus years on, and I have not abandoned all that I believe to be true and right about Jesus' teachings, but I do not consider myself to be a Christian. Having spent much time ratifying the logical conclusions and ramifications of Christian doctrine - and when we say Christian doctrine we only mean that which has ended up being the interpretation of words that it is after many hundred years of power abuse and scholarly ambition - I have ended up with a heart that still believes in an almighty, all good God, but a head so fuddled with the inconstencies of worldly experience and Christian absolutist truths, that I have a horrible case of O.C.D. which comes and goes, wherein I pray incessantly to God whenever my mind slips into the ways of sin which you describe; or even if I only fear that i might have done.
You are fallible, and so am I. And the notion of Salvation extolled by Christian preachers to the vulnerable is a sad offence against God. Because if you follow through the logic of this salvation, it would imply that nothing that Christians think or act after this point is important for your ultimate destination so long as you are now "saved", whereas those who do not beg to be saved by that which they do not understand will burn in hell. It's all about the pressure to save your soul, when at age 10, 15, 30, 60, 70 you don't even know why you are here. That it is not love. That is not faith. That is FEAR. The Bible has had as much, if not more ill effect on people as it has good. It is what is in people's hearts that counts.

Because of this dogmatic crap I still feel the fear of damnation to hell, for myself, for my loved ones, for everyone. Think the logicality of it through. Look at the people in the world, how could they all be condemnworthy to eternal punishment for getting it wrong in this already hard, hard world?

I don't have the answers, but sometimes I feel I could rip the "church" down for what it's done to me. Quit sending people into flits of fear if you really want people to come to Jesus. Think about the nature of the "God" you are trying to draw people to for goodness sake. All you have to do is run through the implications. I mean, imagine as a scenario telling a child created out of wedlock, abused and abandoned and not loved by either parent, "sorry boy/girl, but here you are now. And you're naturally a sinful being, but as long as you say a prayer to Something you don't really know you won't burn in eternal hell (in addition to the awful physical life you've already had)."

And don't even think of using this as a counter argument in a simplistic fashion - Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. - are all those born into circumstance good deemed for hell and torture becaust they happened to have a good life? BLACK AND WHITE IS RIDICULOUS.

its a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God".....Gods love is perfect, and more than anyone can love and wouldnt his hatred be alike?...you say how can God hate if God is love...well if God loves that which is Holy he must hate that which is unholy...and through Christ we can be made Holy

Who made us "unholy"?!

this scripture is telling us to becareful how we interpret scripture lest we dont understand it...

Scripture? You'd think a God that loved us would give us a little more to go on than a book seeped in inconsistency, symbolism and allegory! Why treat us like people in a maze?

I sympathise for myself almost as much as I do for you. Every single person, myself included has notions of God all wrong wrong wrong!

"I'm God and I created everything, and when they got things wrong I sent them to eternal punishment with the evil one. There's 9999999 Billion of them in hell, but at least there are 2 billion saved souls up here in heaven." Is that what's going on up there? i doubt it.

the rich man obviously had a memory, many theologians have decided from this text that the man still had "the lusts of the flesh" so if you have addictions its possible you they will be there but never satisfied

Gosh a memory after life! So tell me. Do you think that when we are souls in hell or heaven that we are just floating blobs that only wish to sing hymns in a golden hall? Heaven? think things through.
RAhn oesihfosda jkglskgl; angry mo fo

 

[jesuschristschild]

i dont have all the answers sir, i just know the bible is the word of God, and that God being the creator of all, could easily preserve the word....you say that you accepted the Lord, the bible says that God disciplines his children into greater Holiness, and if you can just out an out sin, your faith is in vain right now....people that dont believe all the bible just dont accept the God in it
And God is righteous.....and he could have sent everyone to hell and still been just but in his love that surpasses knowledge he came down as a man and died in our place, and took our punishment, the king of glory....died for you, but a gift must be truely accepted.....Jesus tells us to repent and believe the gospel

 

[SocialRetahd]

I would go straight to hell.

 

[LA-girl]

Hello again JesusChristChild!

And thank you for taking time to explain why you hold your view about Gods judgement.

But really I definately do not see this as a quarrel of any kind, just a healthy discussion with an honest intention to get to the bottom of things. And like I told you intitially, i did not do this in order to criticize you at all, but rather to express my opinion of the matter. If I ever come across as arrogant it is never my intention, it is just my way of discussing. So please bear with me! :wink:

be aware because when you say the things you say about the God i speak of you may very well be blaspheming the true God - we dont always know it all (God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble)

I really don't see why you are saying that. Can you please point to any of my statements which you would term as blasphemic? What I have been trying to do all along is to rid the idea of seing God as a monster. And I am just being honest. And the only reason why I think christians who have the tradtional view of hell refuse to see and admit that is because they think that it is the truth and do not dare to think rational about the issue and blind themselves. When christians in one instance speak of Gods love and rightousness and at the same sentence claim that he will send his dear children to a place with everlasting torture becuase they did not choose to obey him... I mean it makes one wonder how anyone with a clear thinking brain can just accept this, and a lot of dear people have rejected the christian faith because they do not see any harmony between what God claims to be and his supposedly judgement of everlasting torment.

Now lets first take a look at the parable about "The Rich Man and Lazarus" you used in order to support your view of hell. Because that's what it is, a parable. It is not supposed to be taken literally, and definately not to base any conclusion over such a serious matter as the judgement. If you take it literally, do you also believe that Abraham's bosom is heaven and that people in heaven can talk to people in hell? Some paradise that would be! If you want to read more about what this parable really mean, and why it can not be used as an argument to support the view of an everlasting hellfire, please check out this link:

http://www.helltruth.com/QuestionsAnswers/TheRichManLazarus/tabid/236/Default.aspx

.....

Jesus said in the bible that he went to the heart of the earth before he rose from the dead...which in acts its (Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.) "PAINS" the Greek word "odin" means pain, sorrow, travail...other versions says "horrors of death"

I have heard that "heart of the earth" does not mean the literal center of the earth, but rather that Jesus was to suffer for 3 days and 3 nights in the clutches of the evilness in this world. His suffering lasted for 3 days and nights all in all including the torture he went through prior to his crucifixion. If Jesus went to hell for 3 days and 3 nights after dying on the cross he would still be there on the day of the recurrection.

If death was just blackness there could be only one death - Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

but this is the second death and death is a great word for it because you will never ever leave...the greek word for brimstone can also mean "sulpher

.

I have never said I denied that there will be a hellfire, the Bible is pretty clear on that point. What I am saying though is that the sinners will not continue to burn for eternity. After their indivudual punishment however they will all burn up and be annihilated. This is the second death, and they will never have another chance of receiving eternal life.

you think in your heart possibly as a human argument "how could it be?" he will judge you according to your deeds and im sure that when you see God in all his Holiness you will have no doubt you deserve and eternity of hell...

No! I don't think anyone, not even the devil deserves to be tortured in agonizing, unbearable pain for eternity. Do you really think that all those billions of people who will not be granted eternal life deserves to burn forever? I have a hard time believeing that...

the greek word for everlasting here is "aionos" according to this greek -english dictionary it is a word that means perpetual, (used of past time, or past and future)- eternal, forever, everlasting, world(began)

basically means eternally enduring, never stopping....eternal fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

I think We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them "into ashes" as a warning to "those that after should live ungodly," 2 Peter 2:6. These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned out. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself. (From helltruth.com)

KJV: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Again as I have told you before, there will be a burning, and how long the burning or punishment will be is individual, which means that the devil probably will burn the longest. How long, only God knows. But the word forever is used many times in the Bible to illustrate a period of time. It often means, until the end of 'life'. Which means this verse could mean that the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be punished for several days, becuase of their great and many sins, before they eventually burn up as I showed you earlier in another verse.

you say how can God hate if God is love...well if God loves that which is Holy he must hate that which is unholy...and through Christ we can be made Holy

You make it sound like God can not love us unless we are perfect through Christ. While the Bible clearly says "But God demonstrates his own love towards us , in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom 5:8 ). God loves us even when we sin and disobay him, that does not mean that he does not hate our sins. But in John 3:16 it says: For God so LOVED THE WORLD (which means every single sinful soul) that he gave his only begotten son....God does not hate us because we are unholy, but he can not grant us eternal life because that would mean that He would not be able to rid the world of evil and sin (while save as many souls as he possibly can) which is his overall purpose.

whom shall be punished in everlasting destruction is destruction that never ends - 2thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

If you destroy something, how can you keep destroying it over and over again? And why would God after he has destroyed all sinners and the devil and demons, willfully continue to keep them alive just to destroy them over and over and over again? Gods purpose is to rid the universe of all evil and sin once and for all. So why on earth would he deliberately choose to let sin and evil and pain continue forever, when he has promised that one day it shall all be over. It makes no sense whatsoever.

And how would anyone who is granted eternal life be able to enjoy their new life knowing that many of their dear friends/family are continually suffering in constant agony? Not to mention God who is definately all knowing, how could he enjoy the new perfect world knowing about all those billions of his children screaming in pain for eternity?

 

[monkeycrud]

i dont have all the answers sir, i just know the bible is the word of God,

HOW do you know that the bible is the absolute word of God? I say that it's only on the basis of what you have been told, not by God Himself.

I'm not intending to be vindictive or to personally attack you, it's just that this issue is something that is paramount in my life. Believe me, I want to believe in the Christian God, but I personally was born with an inquisitive mind. I suppose you would call this 'lack of faith' and maybe it is, but it does not stem from an unwillingness to believe in God, but rather from landing in a mass of confusion because I have been prepared to use the mind God gave me and have discovered that sometimes the God of the Bible does not seem consistent. The Bible doesn't even read as an instruction manual, it begins as a story. It was written by men in a very different time period with very different understandings. It is not written in a way that makes it a clear instruction manual to a man in any period of time anywhere in the world. Therefore, I no longer think that it can be taken at face value, and that you have to trust in God to find the right from the wrong, not accept it all as if it is God with a pen in his hand; if it were it would surely speak in a fashion much more easy and clear for all to understand. If you will insist that it is the exact word of God, why do you think it is that God would only provide us with this difficult piece of literature to get us to Heaven?

And I never said that a Christian when saved can sin as much as they want, I said that the implication is that they could, because it's not as if you walk around with a status symbol which indicates to you the level of how safely Saved you are to indicate if your going the right way or wrong way in life. There aint no black and white, but that's what Christianity sometimes wants to thrust on you. Get "saved" then study the Bible every week and that is all life needs to be for you!

For example, ponder a question (although I suspect it is probably deemed blasphemous to do so according to what you have been taught). Just think it through, think around it, then ask yourself does the notion that man is sinful and it's all his own fault still make sense...

Here's the question (and it in turn will provoke more questions when you try to explain this one away with biblical references): How is it possible, that at one time there was absolute perfection in the entire universe, perfection in everything, every angel, then suddenly one day sinfulness began? Where did that "capacity" arise from? Why? And more importantly HOW?

A second question. What were Adam and Eve like before the Fall? Were they really free if God knew that these creatures HE created would mess up? Didn't have much of a chance really did they? How human were they if they were not allowed to properly think which is what Genesis implies?

This is what happens when you don't just think as the preacher tells you to. And I have become very sick because of the immenst effort it takes to overcome what has been drummed into you as a child. You end up left with certainty in nothing. And I believe that entitles me to have my say.

Anyway. I think I'd better stop now.

 

[jesuschristschild]

HOW do you know that the bible is the absolute word of God? I say that it's only on the basis of what you have been told, not by God Himself.


A second question. What were Adam and Eve like before the Fall? Were they really free if God knew that these creatures HE created would mess up? Didn't have much of a chance really did they? How human were they if they were not allowed to properly think which is what Genesis implies?

[/quote]

i will answer you directly because i can see what you are saying is genuine

i have written the story of my conversion and i will email the entire thing to you are interested (its very long) i used to be an atheist...i was incredibly social phobic.....i trembled on buses, and everywhere i went, i was terrorfied of public...i couldnt be around my own family members without shaking in fear i was so bad....and the only conversation i could carry with someone was one about depression...lol.....i used to be a very confident person before that....i changed after a demon experience (you would have to read in the story) and became a believer in God....Jesus said if we follow his doctrine we will find out whether if he is just speaking of himself or whether its from God.....i seeked God for six months and i finally believed with all my heart i could be forgiven by God and i prayed for forgiveness...and with all my heart i believed and all my heart was ready to anything God said, even if it meant the most embarrassing thing....and instantly the Holy Spirit filled me with joy and that horrifying social phobic tension and depression was instantly gone, it was absolutely supernatural, i felt the Holy Spirit like fire within me burning...the bible speaks of being enlightened and experiencing the powers of the next world.....i was laughing for a little in pure joy that i was saved (part of me hoped a bullet would fly through the wall and kill me because i knew id go to heaven i didnt want to screw this up lol) then i started crying because it was a horrific reminded that their was really a devil and that so many people were going to hell....then the power of God was strong within me i felt so much optimism and joy i felt like i could conquer the world....i still smoked at this time, didnt know it was a sin and every time i smoked the joy would go down, then when i stopped it would go up again....and i ended up anyways the joy was gone, but God remained...Jesus said he'd give us a comforter that would remain with us forever (John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever

and anyways, i started losing my assurance of salvation, thinking i screwed up too much and God wouldnt forgive me....this Pastor once while i was in a church i told her about the demon i had, i knew there was a demon still around me...and the Pastor brought me to the front to cast it out of me....then the Pastor said to me "in the name of Jesus get out of him" and she said many things...but i felt the demon ripping out of me so bad that my head felt like it would explode....it was absolutely amazing...then when she stopped i had no social phobia, it was completely gone...i felt a way i hadnt felt in years...so much more free, i gave someone a high five that was there.....

anyways a visiting Pastor at that church was there one time and i asked him what was a good book in the bible to read (i hadnt read much at this time)...he told me to read the book of john...and so i did, and while i read it i noticed Spirit was flowing out of the book and into me(the social phobic demon is not just a social phobic demon, its entire plan is to put you in hell) is everyones social phobia a demon, i couldnt tell you honestly, i suspect so but i dont know...but Spirit filled my belly, and the more i read the more i was filled with the Spirit....i actually because of the Spirit read the enitre bible...some books seemed more potent than others, but Spirit certainly was flowing out of the bible and filling me, and the more Spirit i was filled with the less depress i was and fearful......eventually while i was with this one girl, i loved her and supernatural love flowed out of me from the Spirit of God, the bible says that true love comes from those who have intimacy with God...and i looked at Jesus with that love in the bible while i read his words and filled with the Spirit.....i see the soul of Jesus, the soul of God...i have intimacy with him....it is the most amazing thing....and when i sin, Gods Spirit withdraws more, and demonic power attacks..but the more i am filled with his Spirit the more joy and peace i have....when i am full of him i have immense joy...i feel so in love with him i just worship his beauty and praise him and just so deeply in love its absolutely amaziing praise the Lord....and when i sin he disciplines me...the demonic power slowly comes, the amount that i seperate myself from evil and add myself to the will of God, the more i experience the Lord....its just something God has revealed to me.......there is absolutely nothing in the entire scriptures when used in context that isnt true...God preserved his word and its Holy....this might not be the most influencial answer for you to answer how you think....i believe the bible is the word of God because my eyes are opened to that truth.....i obeyed it an it came true....God has told me it is true through his Spirit...i will stand by every single word in the bible 2peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

the word in greek here actually means all scripture was God breathed

the Spirit has opened my eyes to the fact that God is God....when you understand that and you know that even a part of the bible is his word, you know it all is...the Spirit thing i spoke of (John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.)

God just preserved his word, he rose men up to do the will of God and keep the word and he empowered them and guided their steps basically....the many who translated the king james version was burned alive for his faith

i can go to my bible right now, read it and experience intimacy with God......its supernatural....

its an intimacy that gives me joy....and just worship to him.....worship to God fills my heart so much

hes such a beautiful soul

i owe my entire life to him

you know the demon has more room and power over my life the more i let sin in my life, like pride(the greatest power to social phobia is pride)..land other sins...he disciplines me into his will....my dad asked me "Jamie what you think about the divinci code" i used to shake and tremble around him and barely speak...i looked him directly in the eyes and said "I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD" and i said some other things and i hope so bad he gets saved, but he said himself he can see its working for me...

i dont know what else to say really on the entire topic....after the lady cast the demon out of me, i went into the car and i seen it fly back at into my face and the fears were creeping back...God rewards me with his Spirit, and he allows the demon to attack when im sinning and not in his will...Paul in the bible had the same thing (2Cor 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.)

lest he should be proud, lest he should have pride, there was given him a demon to discipline him to be humble....

i am no one, just someone here to share my faith with people...if someone hates my personality, or whatever, then thats ok, if someone wishes death upon me, whatever....but please dont die without the Lord....please....i am a pitful messanger of an amazing God, i am nothing...but at the same time i belong to him and thats all that matters to me...i cry much for my own family tears because i so bad want them to be forgiven....i see evidence of Gods word being true all the time

the social phobia demon that i had and that even attacks me this day....they put thoughts in your heart and try and push you to believe things, think things...try and fight the thoughts if you really want to believe....the reason thoughts and social phobia can be phycially impossible to stop is because demons are stronger than us...i do not know whos social phobia is demonic, but mine was definitely.....

A second question. What were Adam and Eve like before the Fall? Were they really free if God knew that these creatures HE created would mess up? Didn't have much of a chance really did they? How human were they if they were not allowed to properly think which is what Genesis implies?

they were perfect, it is true....i dont know all things i will give you my best answer in this case

Adam and Eve, if you study them, they found out they were naked and then came shame.....they were so loving eachother and God that they didnt even notice they were naked.....then they sinned and started blaming eachother rather than asking God to forgive them.....they were allowed to make the choice whether to eat off the tree or not.....

this effected the earth...and now everyone is born in sin

we a born God hating creatures....we naturally hate God and are disobedient now....the doctrine of the grace of God tells us that if God took his grace away from the nicest unsaved person on the planet they would become worse than hitler

God changes the man and makes him a lover of God...no one on this entire site will go to God except God draws him in the bible says

the bible says he will put a heart of flesh in us and take out the heart of stone and cause us to walk in his judgments.....and give us a fear of him that we will not depart from him....this is in Jeremiah 32....Jeremiah 32 and Ezekiel 36 have amazing scriptures on the new covenant of Jesus Christ...what God will do to the man, and Gods plan around the covenant

read this scripture right here and study it over and over, praying that God shows you what it says because your arguing the same thing that seems to have been argued to Paul the apostle

Romans
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


the bible also says that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked and wishes for all to repent at the same time......

if it wasnt for Gods grace i would probably be dead, or cutting my wrists drunk and in a mess of sin like no other on this planet...waking up in my own puke

i am the least on this entire site, i am no one, i tell you this that i may humble myself....honestly i owe God my entire life

i pray the Lord takes what i written and works with it even though i fall so short of his glory

the Lord Bless you

 

[LA-girl]

Hey Monkeycrud!

I know your questions was not directed to me in the first place, but I take myself the freedom to try and answer your questions from my viewpoint.

HOW do you know that the bible is the absolute word of God? I say that it's only on the basis of what you have been told, not by God Himself.

Let me mention the most important evidences:

The Bible says in Timothy 3:15-17, “. . .from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

So first of all the Bible does not claim to be the very pen of God, but written by men inspired by God. The Holy Scripture is 66 individual books, written on 3 continents, in 3 different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction.

Another indicative evidence that the Bible is the word of God is all the thousands of detailed prophecies where all, except those who deals with the end time, have been fulfilled with 100 percent accuracy. (If you want to study only one prophecy you can go to my thread "Positive Religious thread"on this site and read about The Millennial Man -3 posts down)

Another thing is it details historical events that are subject to verification. All the historical and manuscript evidence supported by archeology makes it the best documented book from the ancient world.

The Bible doesn't even read as an instruction manual, it begins as a story. It was written by men in a very different time period with very different understandings. It is not written in a way that makes it a clear instruction manual to a man in any period of time anywhere in the world. Therefore, I no longer think that it can be taken at face value, and that you have to trust in God to find the right from the wrong, not accept it all as if it is God with a pen in his hand; if it were it would surely speak in a fashion much more easy and clear for all to understand.

You are right The Bible in its entirety is not just an instruction manual.You say it begins with a story, and throughout the whole Bible there are many stories in addition to give us instruction as to have a proper relationship with our creator. If it was just an "instruction manual" as you put it we would not be granted any answers as to why we are in this present mess and how to escape it. I mean to just give us instructions without knowing why would not be very effective would it? Another reason (keep in mind these are just my thoughts!) why the Bible contains all different kind of details that one at first view might think is rather insignificant and without relevance, are often found to have very vital symbolic meaning and importance in order to discover a new biblical truth. For instance when you read about the Santuary in the old testament, few people realize that there is a bigger picture revealed behind what one at first glance would view as maybe the most boring and unnecessary sections in the Bible. But it turns out that it is full of symbolism and Gods plan of salvation is revealed in the earthly sanctuary. When you come to realize and discover truths as these (and there are countless of them) , at least my reaction is that this has to be divenly inspired, there are just no other way of explaining it. Another reason for its often graphic details of certain episodes could simply be to give us a sense of realism, that it is not a fictous story, but a historical event that actually happened.

If you will insist that it is the exact word of God, why do you think it is that God would only provide us with this difficult piece of literature to get us to Heaven?

First of all, most parts of the Bible does not require you to have the brain of Einstein in order to understand the message of the Bible, at least when you know how to read and interpret it. If you use the rule of letting the Bible interpret itself, and compare scripture with scripture when searching for a biblical truth, you are very likely to end up with very logical answers that do not contradict eachother. When I first discovered this rule I was amazed to find out how often the most difficult passages suddenly makes sense. And this may in part be some of the reason why the Bible is so full of symbols, because unless we turn to God to have an understanding we won't get very far, it's one way of making us turn to Him for help and guidance and in that sense building a personal relationship to God. Another reason for its complexity might also be that those who take time to study the book will soon discover that there has to be highly intelligent devine mind behind it.

Here's the question (and it in turn will provoke more questions when you try to explain this one away with biblical references): How is it possible, that at one time there was absolute perfection in the entire universe, perfection in everything, every angel, then suddenly one day sinfulness began? Where did that "capacity" arise from? Why? And more importantly HOW?
A second question. What were Adam and Eve like before the Fall? Were they really free if God knew that these creatures HE created would mess up? Didn't have much of a chance really did they? How human were they if they were not allowed to properly think which is what Genesis implies?

We were all, both angels and humans created with a free will. God did this because he did not want us to be like robots, premanualed to love and obey him, because love simply can not be forced. So without free will, no love.
Now, God probably knew when he created all things that sin (disobediance) would enter this world. First by one of the highest created angels, Lucifer, which because of his pride desired to be God and was together with a mass amount of angels cast out of heaven and down to earth. This was how evil entered the world, not because God wanted or made it so, but as an inevitable consequence of creating angels and us with a free will.
God could have chosen to wipe out Lucifer and the angels that took his side, but this would only have led the rest of the angels to continue obeying God out of fear and not love. The same goes for us humans when the first created humans were put to the test to see whether they would choose to trust God in all things or not. And we know the rest of the story and it gives an explanation why we now are in this present mess. You could also pose the question as to why God decided to create angels and humans when he knew what would going to happen. Now think of a loving parent who decided to procreate even though they knew that child were going to rebel sooner or later. Love takes risks. God chose not to give up on us, he found a way by the sacrifice of his only begotten son, Christ, in order to give us a chance to get back to the garden again and not having to die. We were created with the purpose to live side by side with God for eternity and not to just die and decompose. Ezekiel 33:11 (Whole Chapter)
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die.

God wants us to understand with our entire soul that everything he does is for our own and the universe benefit and to love, trust and obey him for those very reasons.

 

[jesuschristschild]

my theology and others may disagree

but i will be able to tell you something you can certainly experience God on earth, and have no doubt in the world he is there...it can take a lot more than a little prayer though...i encourage you to listen to this mans testimony

http://www.soundclick.com/pro/view/02/default.cfm?bandID=15398&content=song&songID=4943319

start listening at 21 minutes and stop at 26 minutes....the mans testimony is similar to mine...

three choices
lo-fi or hi-fi or download

this is my favourite preacher

 

[haze]

Ok i know i shouldn't be insulting on this board and people get enough of it as it is but OH MY GOD YOUR SUCH F***ING RETARDS. The bible is thee biggest heap of s*** ever its like the grand book of contradictions. Its completely impossible to belive the bible 100% because one half contradicts the other and its quite obvious you dont because you would be against deformed people, handicaped people, pro slavery, want to kill members of other religons, anti gay, pro child beating/killing, belive the earth is flat, belive the sun moves around the earth, belive the clouds are moved by gods breath.

heres some contradictions for you

Which First then?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18 )
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)

i mean if you read the bible from back to back and belive it all litrealy im truely suprised you can read to begin with and to answer your original question, nothing happens you die you rot in a coffin six feet under the ground or maybe your a bunch of ashes in a urn on a mantle piece or your used a subject for medical science or if your paticurely rich your shot of into space in some fancy capsule but none of this matters because your not aware of it as your DEAD.

 

[LA-girl]

OH MY GOD YOUR SUCH F***ING RETARDS....
..... you would be against handicaped people

And what did you call religous people again?

As for the rest of your accusations, if you really had as much of an interest to study out the the arguments of those defending the Bible as you have to dig up as much dirt you can in order to reprove it, you would soon discover that all of the Skeptics Annotated Bible (as you probably are familiar with) has been refuted. And there are dozens of web-sites that explains a lot of seemingly contradictions including those very verses you brought up. As I don't get the vibes that you would even be remotely interested in having your arguments explained and refuted, I would leave you to do the work. I also have no interest to start discussing with people who would term others as ****************RETARDS just for holding another view than themselves.

 

[haze]

OH MY GOD YOUR SUCH F***ING RETARDS....
..... you would be against handicaped people

And what did you call religous people again?

obviously your not actully retarded its a expression and im not against you. i still dont belive there is a god although it is a possability its just not probable also i got most of my sources from various websites.

Yes your right i dont spend that much time looking the stuff up because my only reason to do this is entertain myself by luaghing at responses and seeing as your one of the nice christians that actully thinks for themsevles (to a extent) and doesnt damn me to hell or insult me even after me defeintly insulting you.

So i dont think i will get the angry fanatical chrsitain response i was looking for :wink: . I dont care enough to try and convert people or argue points because well i dont care enough to explain (yes im pretty lazy )

I still stand by what i said but because your the sort of person that will tiptoe round the arguments i give and this in turn will force me to actully research things in a greater depth only to have you either tiptoe round that aswell or just say you have faith or something. Either way that doesnt really provide me with much entertainment so i wont argue anymore.

Oh and i would be interested in having the arguments i put forward refuted i like arguments but dont expect to much research on my part also if your idea of refuteing my points is saying that the bible should be taken symbolicly in some parts that isnt enough.

 

[LA-girl]

Haze,

First of all I have to say I am glad you are being so honest, but hey if you expect me to take time to refute your arguments after openly revealing that you "dont spend that much time looking the stuff up because" your "only reason to do this is entertain myself by laughing at responses..." you have to think again! I'm glad you think of me as a "nice christian", but I am not stupid.

Here is a link where you easily will be able to find the answers to your questions... given that you have the time that is! :wink:

 

[lilbirdy]

jesuschristchild it sounds like you have your priorities in the right place.
spoken like a true baptist