I Was Right About Us All Having OCD

MadHatter said: ↑

I suffer from GSAD and experience intrusive thoughts.
All the information i've read describes intrusive thoughts as a part of certain disorders(SAD, OCD), but not a disorder in and of itself. Though i'm not saying that they are not.

To me likening all intrusive thoughts and mild compulsions to OCD is the same as likening severe shyness to SAD.

If you didn't have intrusive thought disorder you WOULDN'T have GSAD in the first place, that's the point. The obsessive beliefs you hold and the evidence manufacturing you engage in, and the consequential constant self-deprication and obsessive fortune-telling, are all elements of ITD.

I read that Intrusive Thought Disorder is a problem in of itself, however it's true that it doesn't appear on the spectrum in most literature. Have you noticed that there are about several dozen posters on this site with this problem? Barry is one for example. Pure OCD / Intrusive Thought Disorder is nevertheless recognized by some psychologists and clinicians, and it certainly behaves like a disorder of it's own. It's quite possible to have obsessive thoughts without physical compulsions, although there are usually mental compulsions.

Mild compulsions and intrusive thought disorder aren't OCD!? You are trying to make OCD an extreme which it is not, and you are missing the forest for the trees. OCD is a spectrum of disorders ranging from the least compulsive to the most compulsive, and from the least impulsive, to the most impulsive. The underlying factors are over activity in the cingulate and amygdala, and perhaps other neurological conditions.

Phobologist said: ↑

Okay let me explain. The basis for OCD is not cognitive, its entirely neurological. People without this neurological CANNOT develop OCD of any type. However, cognitive patterns can produce OCD illnesses in people with this neurological abnormality.

Hi Phobologist, my experience, my research tells me that anyone can develop OCD given the right (or wrong) circumstances. For example, put a 'normal' person in a highly stressed environment and you increase the chance of them developing OCD regardless of any neurological condition.

Anxiety, phobias, ocd, depression, dissociation are reactions of the brain. They are not neurologic flaws by themselves. Of coures if you do have an underlying neurological imbalance (hyperactivity in one part) the probability of those reactions increase.

Phobologist said: ↑

Compulsion isn't as complicated or creative as you think. The neurological basis for compulsion is faulty wiring, not cognitive beliefs. CBT doesnt work very well on compulsions (45% success rate) for that reason. When it does work, I assure you it's because of neuroplastic changes which were inadvertantly made, not because of the therapy's aims. For example, exposure response therapy actually makes OCD worse in many cases. It will only work if preformed according to neuroplastic theory. According to the research I have read, the basis for compulsive behavior is as follows:

[obsessive thought] ----> [anxiety] -----> [ritual] -----> [less anxiety] -----> [obsessive thought] -----> loop

Yeah I agree with the flowchart. CBT always has a fairly low success rate because the feedback loop is so strong and primal. With OCD our brain believes that the rituals are the only thing stopping the anxiety. It's extremely difficult to cognitively change that.

Phobologist said: ↑

Depression increases obsessive thinking, it doesn't lower it. I don't see any evidence for the cycle you are talking about. How we want to define it is in my opinion, irrelevant. How we deal with it has largely neurological underpinnings, not cognitive ones. The stickier the cingulate is, the easier it is to form compulsions. The greater the abnormality in the amygdala, the more prone we are to anxiety. I suspect that the confluence of these two factors alone, probably explains at least 50% of OCD cases. In other situations such as GSAD, and other phobias, you probably need particular traumas to develop the illnesses.

Okay, let me give you an example of the cycle with social anxiety. Someone who has social anxiety is continually beating themselves up for saying something or not saying something or doing or not doing something and the anxiety just keeps building and building. There comes a point when we 'give up' fighting. We realize nothing is working and we start to accept that we are flawed or worthless. The anxiety actually lowers then because we no longer have to fight as much (we start believing we are flawed) and acceptance of the situation is higher. That's why there is comfort in depression (just like there is comfort in rituals). But then we stabalize and we start moving around again, the anxiety picks up and the fight continues on. It's similar to OCD cycle where the ritual lower the anxiety temporarily as well. I guess by definition you are 'obessive' when depressed, but its a different type and its purpose is to clear away just like rituals.

cosmosis said: ↑

Hi Phobologist, my experience, my research tells me that anyone can develop OCD given the right (or wrong) circumstances. For example, put a 'normal' person in a highly stressed environment and you increase the chance of them developing OCD regardless of any neurological condition.

I seriously doubt that as OCD is a neurologically based condition, not a cognitively based one. Can you please point me to that research?

cosmosis said: ↑

Anxiety, phobias, ocd, depression, dissociation are reactions of the brain. They are not neurologic flaws by themselves. Of coures if you do have an underlying neurological imbalance (hyperactivity in one part) the probability of those reactions increase.

Hyperactivity is what makes these illnesses possible. Most phenomenon in the brain are neurologically based. Everything from thoughts to feelings has a neurological basis. There is no magic.

cosmosis said: ↑

Yeah I agree with the flowchart. CBT always has a fairly low success rate because the feedback loop is so strong and primal. With OCD our brain believes that the rituals are the only thing stopping the anxiety. It's extremely difficult to cognitively change that.

That's not the reason. CBT doesn't work because it reinforces the anxiety by causing the person to focus on it. Only neuroplastic behavioral therapies and medications work.

cosmosis said: ↑

Okay, let me give you an example of the cycle with social anxiety.

You realize I have OCD right? But please, continue...

cosmosis said: ↑

Someone who has social anxiety is continually beating themselves up...We realize nothing is working and we start to accept that we are flawed or worthless. The anxiety actually lowers then because we no longer have to fight as much (we start believing we are flawed) and acceptance of the situation is higher.

Okay this is an interesting point. In the immediate circumstance the person's anxiety may be lowered because there is no longer a battle occuring in their mind. The have already lost. However they have only set themselves up for a much deeper problem.

cosmosis said: ↑

That's why there is comfort in depression (just like there is comfort in rituals).

Agreed that depression is comforting because it relieves the immediate anxiety to some extent.

cosmosis said: ↑

But then we stabalize and we start moving around again, the anxiety picks up and the fight continues on. It's similar to OCD cycle where the ritual lower the anxiety temporarily as well.

Good insight, I agree.

cosmosis said: ↑

I guess by definition you are 'obessive' when depressed, but its a different type and its purpose is to clear away just like rituals.

Good point. Chronic depression could be caused by an obsessive thinking disorder. On the other hand, it could also be caused by a cognitive distortion complex or an on-going environmental threat.

I think ur kinda right.. cause my doc prescribed me some medicine for the OCD and when it mostly past( not saying I'm cured) he still kept me on the medicine, and don't say because he doesn't want the symptoms to come back.. it's not that.. when he found out I had SA he didn't prescribe me any other meds.. so the meds used to cure ocd are used for SA, therefore... dunno .. just my opinion...

Sounds pretty accurate to me Phobologist.