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Old 11-06-2017
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Originally Posted by Lionhearted View Post
it's like finding a needle in the haystack for women, while it's like hunting for the perfect prey, for men.

tbh, its just as often the other way around ...but people dont hear about it as much because its seems like the generally accepted scenario is that the woman is the prey..




http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/romance-fr...529-39811.html

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tbh, its just as often the other way around ...but people dont hear about it as much because its seems like the generally accepted scenario is that the woman is the prey.




'Romance fraud': woman accused of swindling millions from men through online dating sites
From that article... "One of the men allegedly paid the woman $1.9 million over the course of their relationship while the other three men allegedly paid her $190,000, $58,000 and $12,000 respectively."

Those men weren't seeking a relationship, they were "paying" for "services rendered". Many of the multiple replies a woman gets in online dating sites are from men wanting "services" that many woman will then take advantage of.
Online Dating sites are glorified ads for prostitution in my opinion.
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From that article... "One of the men allegedly paid the woman $1.9 million over the course of their relationship while the other three men allegedly paid her $190,000, $58,000 and $12,000 respectively."

Those men weren't seeking a relationship, they were "paying" for "services rendered". Many of the multiple replies a woman gets in online dating sites are from men wanting "services" that many woman will then take advantage of.
Online Dating sites are glorified ads for prostitution in my opinion.
The point I was making is women prey on men too. online AND off.
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Offline isn't all that much different.
That is not true, and I told you about this long ago in fact. The amount of men willing to go up to women in real life and introduce themselves is astonishingly low, it takes a LOT of courage.

In person interaction is far more equal. It's not a rigid system where you can compare "resumes" like it's done online. And there are in fact more women than men proportion-wise in this country, in almost any part of it.

Online skews things SO profoundly you end up with no chance at all unless you are 6 foot+ and good looking, or have close to a 6 figure-income, or maybe a JD (law degree) in the latter 2 cases your looks barely matter at all.

I said the calculus is quite simple. Generally speaking, it's all summed up in the paragraph above. And you keep inviting more torture and keep giving free attention to women who have NO intention of meeting, actually they're waiting for the guy in the above paragraph.

I've been told the same thing in other places that discuss these things and all agreed the silver-lining is with real-life interaction. As implied before, in real life, you can't be immediately screened out for lacking college education or having a poor income... not to mention, it's hard even for well-adjusted men to approach women in real life. Somehow, this is the ability you have to gain if you've got social difficulties or you're unexceptional. Which is kind of ironic given the social anxiety or awkwardness, but I've heard it can be done.

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And as I'm using myself as an example now, I should say this: I make a couple dollars above minimum wage, live in my parents basement, do have a bachelors degree, a (very depressing) receding hairline, and the social skills on par with most 3rd grades, in person at least.
If you have actually gotten any real results from dating sites given the above (I don't judge you, because I am in fact *worse*), to me that suggests you're okay with accepting the terribly poor odds and several thousand quick and easy rejections does not bother you. Which I don't get. But it seems like you're somehow willing to wade through it, hoping the 1200th time you send a message, a woman will be willing to meet. And then the 2400th time for another date. It's not how it should be.

All of that bothers me, a great deal. I cannot accept this is how it should be--and in all honesty, it should NOT be this way, it's highly unnatural compared to real life interaction. "I've got so many options, let's just look at the fattest resume and discard the rest" as if any random woman would be that elitist in real life. I don't like submitting to this value system; nor am I saying women don't have problems.

But men are not disposable and the fact that we keep joining this sites and accepting thousands of rejections before one caller, is simply making that perception more common.
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Originally Posted by OceanMist View Post
Let's assume a woman is average as far as attractiveness, money and personality goes, ok.

As i mentioned earlier, this woman will be getting around 15-20 messages a day from new men.

Let's go to the extreme. Let's say 80% of these messages are of the sort of sexual suggestions or "yo what up." Either that or she's not attracted to the guy's looks, money, etc. Things like that.

That still leaves 20% of men that are actually reasonable.

So 20 messages a day, meaning about 140 a week. 140 x .2=28 messages A WEEK that are worth responding to.
Shouldn't that be 20% of 20 = 4 men that are actually reasonable (per day).
So 4 messages a day, meaning about 28 a week ... messages A WEEK that are worth responding to.
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Shouldn't that be 20% of 20 = 4 men that are actually reasonable (per day).
So 4 messages a day, meaning about 28 a week ... messages A WEEK that are worth responding to.
You just quoted a sentence of my post. That's exactly what i said. 28 a week worth responding to.

Not sure why you are arguing what i said with what i said, haha. Maybe i'm missing something?
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That is not true, and I told you about this long ago in fact. The amount of men willing to go up to women in real life and introduce themselves is astonishingly low, it takes a LOT of courage.

In person interaction is far more equal.
Bronson I've studied this type of stuff.

The whole pick up culture has stats on this. I've seen guys' numbers.

Hell i've done pick up on women myself and i absolutely hated it. I decided it wasn't worth it. it was SO awkward and a lot of the women didn't like that some guy they don't know was trying talk to them.

When you approach a woman in public, the odds of her having a significant other is over 50%.

That's at least 60% or so of women that will reject the man right off the bat because she's in a relationship. Then factor in all the women that are scared of the guy so she'll use the "i have a b/f/husband" excuse. Increases that
60% number higher.

In online, at least 90% of women don't use that excuse. It would be weird if they did use "i have a b/f" excuse on a dating site.

You see what i'm getting at? Over half of the women a man approaches in person is going to give that type of excuse ("i have a b/f/husband/fiancee or I'm not looking for a b/f, etc)

I've seen numbers on guys who go around and approach women and the average guy sleeps with like .03% of the women he approaches.

Most guys quit after the first weekend of approaching because the odds of getting a g/f or getting laid or so bad for most men.

Plus it absolutely sucks....approaching women in person. It's usually really awkward and like you said the girl isn't used to being approached so she usually gets uncomfortable no matter how good the guy's "game" is.

I'd have to say the odds are pretty similar for success with online vs. real life approaches.

If an average guy approaches women, he'll probably wind up sleeping with about 1 out of every 1000 girls he approaches. And if he wants a g/f it will probably take around 3000-5000 approaches.

Those numbers are rough but those are about the odds on approaching women from what i've seen.

I was in a forum with an average looking filipino fella who approached 10000 women and he only slept with 8 of them....to give you an idea

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You just quoted a sentence of my post. That's exactly what i said. 28 a week worth responding to.

Not sure why you are arguing what i said with what i said, haha. Maybe i'm missing something?
No, my mistake. You just did the calc in a different order than i would have.

"So 20 messages a day, meaning about 140 a week. 140 x .2=28 messages A WEEK that are worth responding to."
You did 20 x 7 = 140 --> 140 x 0.2 (20%) = 28
I did 20 x 0.2 (20%) = 4 --> 4 x 7 = 28

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If you have actually gotten any real results from dating sites given the above (I don't judge you, because I am in fact *worse*), to me that suggests you're okay with accepting the terribly poor odds and several thousand quick and easy rejections does not bother you. Which I don't get. But it seems like you're somehow willing to wade through it, hoping the 1200th time you send a message, a woman will be willing to meet. And then the 2400th time for another date. It's not how it should be.

All of that bothers me, a great deal. I cannot accept this is how it should be--and in all honesty, it should NOT be this way, it's highly unnatural compared to real life interaction. "I've got so many options, let's just look at the fattest resume and discard the rest" as if any random woman would be that elitist in real life. I don't like submitting to this value system; nor am I saying women don't have problems.

But men are not disposable and the fact that we keep joining this sites and accepting thousands of rejections before one caller, is simply making that perception more common.
I think it's that I view it differently than you, in that when someone didn't reply back to me it wasn't them rejecting me, but them not feeling like we'd have been a good match. I can remember plenty of profiles I looked at and thought the same, I didn't think they were bad or even unattractive, I just didn't feel we'd have gotten along well, and didn't want to bother waste their time.

So when I didn't get replied back to, I didn't take it personally. I felt my profile was an accurate representation of who I was as a person, and I'd rather all those people who didn't like what they saw to not bother. If someone didn't like my income for example, I wouldn't want to date them anyways. Money's not something particularly important to me, and I wouldn't want to date someone who saw it as super important.

I can remember a couple times when a person I really would have liked to get to know better didn't respond and felt disappointed, but often those people who I really felt were up my alley also felt the same about me, at least initially, so perhaps I am a lucky outlier in that respect.
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Bronson I've studied this type of stuff.

The whole pick up culture has stats on this. I've seen guys' numbers.
Then fine, just keep thinking like this. Might as well give up. I mean, you haven't studied enough. I've studied also. Yes I have seen this "1 in 1000" thing but it's not very common.

I've seen stats as good as 1 in 40-50 for guys who have average looks AND social awkwardness, presuming they worked on their social issues already.

But okay then, don't try at all except to give free attention to online women who only want your interest and praise, and nothing else. Keep making it worse for every guy. No one is stopping you.

If it all sucks completely then and you're aware of it... the odds are basically meeting maybe 1 woman per every 3000 messages sent... meeting women in real life, you only get with them 1 in every 3000 times.... then what's the use?

How do you explain unattractive guys with social difficulties who still get laid? You can either acknowledge that once in a while, actually trying can create luck for a guy who has no advantages in this game... or that such stories are made up, and all women are elitists and there is no point but to remain angry all the time and lose sanity because of it.
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I can remember a couple times when a person I really would have liked to get to know better didn't respond and felt disappointed, but often those people who I really felt were up my alley also felt the same about me, at least initially, so perhaps I am a lucky outlier in that respect.
You really think the chance of meeting a woman once every 2000 messages is the way things should be? And have no hit at all to your self-esteem over it?

I don't understand how that's fine with you.
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If online dating sites are so difficult then just don't go there, lol.
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You really think the chance of meeting a woman once every 2000 messages is the way things should be? And have no hit at all to your self-esteem over it?

I don't understand how that's fine with you.
I mean, I see it a different way. I would like think that if it really was one out of 2000 people, that that 2000th person is really worth meeting. I mean, as has been established women get a ton of replies on these sites, and have so many people to choose from, if you are the person they choose to meet, it's saying they think you're something special. The goal isn't to go out with as many different people as possible (for most) but to find dates that are really worth going out with, quality over quantity.

I do see where you're coming from though, and maybe it is that we've had very different experiences with dating sites that has us seeing them in such different lights. I feel like if I went up to 2000 women in person and tried to start a conversation or ask them out, I would be lucky to get one positive response. If that's how you feel about dating sites, that wouldn't be fine with me, and I completely understand your sentiment.
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You really think the chance of meeting a woman once every 2000 messages is the way things should be? And have no hit at all to your self-esteem over it?

I don't understand how that's fine with you.
Love is war. It's not fair; always has been and always will be. Try sugar coating it all you want. During my stay on OKC last year, if I never had a way to mentally process and get over the rejections then I would have gone insane. Blows to your self-esteem are always going to be a part of life; it's like 90% of the life for customer service reps. That's why I believe it's important in life to adapt (or overcome, maybe?) blows to our self-esteem/worth in the virtual/real world instead of trying to minimalize it as much as possible because someone is always going to be next in line in this world trying to take a shot at our self-worth.
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Bronson is in bold font.

OceanMist is in the regular font.

[QUOTE=Bronson99;862986]Then fine, just keep thinking like this. Might as well give up. I mean, you haven't studied enough. I've studied also. Yes I have seen this "1 in 1000" thing but it's not very common.

I've seen stats as good as 1 in 40-50 for guys who have average looks AND social awkwardness, presuming they worked on their social issues already.



If they approach 1000 women, i highly doubt those guys will be sleeping with 20 different women out of those 1000.

But okay then, don't try at all except to give free attention to online women who only want your interest and praise, and nothing else. Keep making it worse for every guy. No one is stopping you.

You do realize I've approached random women before in person and tried to get their number. Have you? Because if you haven't, I don't believe you quite realize how awkwardly painful it is.

If it all sucks completely then and you're aware of it... the odds are basically meeting maybe 1 woman per every 3000 messages sent... meeting women in real life, you only get with them 1 in every 3000 times.... then what's the use?

The advantage of online dating is there is so much less effort than approaching in person and WAY less taxing. All a guy has to type a message and shoot it out to a woman online. The guy can do that to at least 100 women in a given day and still have a ton of extra free time.

He can hit that number of 3000 women he sends messages to in a matter of 3 months. One lay every 3 months is a lot of lays. You see what i'm saying?

How do you explain unattractive guys with social difficulties who still get laid? You can either acknowledge that once in a while, actually trying can create luck for a guy who has no advantages in this game... or that such stories are made up, and all women are elitists and there is no point but to remain angry all the time and lose sanity because of it.

The way sex often works is the woman will choose the man that is either is on her level or above her level on the social hierarchy.

A man that is unattractive/social difficulties will still find a woman who is similar to him in personality/looks.

So yes, those unattractive/socially inept guys can and do get laid if they put a lot of effort into dating women.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here? I never said a guy like that can't get laid.
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You really think the chance of meeting a woman once every 2000 messages is the way things should be? And have no hit at all to your self-esteem over it?

I don't understand how that's fine with you.
The more I've been rejected and ignored by women on these sites, the less I've dwelled on it.

Rejection online gets to a point where you get used to it. They usually just don't respond and their name just drops off the messages in the mailbox. It's standard stuff for a guy that does a lot of online dating.

Dating is a numbers game both online and offline.

You say meeting a woman after thousands of women isn't the way it should be.

Well who are we to say how it should be?

This is the way dating is for men. It's a huge numbers game of approaches and/or messages.

This gives a man the best chance of getting the most opportunities to date.

The other option is dating within one's social circle. Of course then the man is limiting himself to that social circle if he chooses to do that.

So either way they choose, they are probably going to have to put in some effort or be restricted to people they know.

Dating friends does work for certain men so I'm not knocking that.

There are about 5% of men (rich and famous men) where dating is actually easy due to their status.

No matter what dating is very difficult for about 95% of men.

You won't hear many men say this because men tend to have egos and usually men aren't going to go around admitting they are having a hard time getting laid.

What i'm saying is it's either play a hard "game of large numbers" or don't play at all.

When you say dating shouldn't be like that....well it is. So it's either participate or opt out. Those are really the only options.
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Well who are we to say how it should be?

This is the way dating is for men. It's a huge numbers game of approaches and/or messages.
Yes, for many. But that's far from the way it is for all guys.

I can say almost for a fact, it is NOT this way for extroverted men (doesn't matter how they look usually, just that they're 'well-known' and 'smooth talking.') It's usually not this way for guys 6 foot tall and above (especially not online, where height is a scientifically proven shortcut, with all the statistics available by now.) And it's not often this way for guys who are highly educated and/or those who have a good job.

That's a lot of guys who are probably not coming up against this "1 in 2000" thing in both venues. Yes, it is far from the majority who have the advantages I stated. But I'm still not happy to accept that some bullcrap like a few extra inches of height or a college degree should have drastic effects on whether I get any attention. Online, this is exactly how it works and it is utterly merciless; in real life, not as much, usually.

I won't play that game. I am not willing to accept the "low value" stamp on my head, by subscribing to the same system that perpetuates the "men are disposable; except just a few." I don't think this belief is weak or immature.. I think it's actually the LOGICAL conclusion to all this when you have rejection sensitivity like me.

I don't agree that real life is the same exact "pissing contest" even if many similarities exist, it is not the same. Maybe it is "just as bad or worse" for you but I've had plenty of autistic men in other forums tell me to forget about online and talk to women in real life and many who have had success, I don't think their numbers were "1 in 2000" either.

Again in real life you cannot be instantly screened out or blocked for going to a Community College (petty crap like that) or because you're one inch below the 5'10" cut-off or because you're socially disabled enough you can barely work. Those are things that happen a bit further down the line, no woman (except the worst kind) will ask immediately if you've got money and a college degree.

In real life you're a person just the same way they are. You're not just a resume until you figure out they're desperate for a serious relationship because "all her friends got amazing guys, and she wants one too" then you know you talked to the wrong girl in the first place.
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I mean, I see it a different way. I would like think that if it really was one out of 2000 people, that that 2000th person is really worth meeting. I mean, as has been established women get a ton of replies on these sites, and have so many people to choose from, if you are the person they choose to meet, it's saying they think you're something special. The goal isn't to go out with as many different people as possible (for most) but to find dates that are really worth going out with, quality over quantity.

I do see where you're coming from though, and maybe it is that we've had very different experiences with dating sites that has us seeing them in such different lights. I feel like if I went up to 2000 women in person and tried to start a conversation or ask them out, I would be lucky to get one positive response. If that's how you feel about dating sites, that wouldn't be fine with me, and I completely understand your sentiment.
I guess the rejection sensitivity dysphoria explains why I'm unhinged about all this stuff. Finding a way to deal with that may be the answer but right now I don't see how I can weather the storm of endless rejection without getting deeply angry and resentful again, which is very bad for mental health. It was before and I made the right decision in getting very far away from that crap. And still it bothers me that women have no idea... literally NONE.. how hard it is for so many guys. It is like signing up to be punched thousands of times over months with no gain at all. It's like finding out that every cynical thing anyone ever told you about life and about women, is 100% true without exception.

I still can hardly believe this is how it works and women just need to spend one day to "find something they like"--it's not even remotely like that for men. Men cannot "go shopping and pick the best one out after an hour" not at all, it's not the same universe, and no women care or understand.. at all. I'm shocked by the nonchalance.
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There are a lot of dumb dating site advertisements in this thread...wow.

I bet there's one right underneath my post isn't there?

Shoo...go away pesky ads.
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