Hyper-Hydro
Well-known member
updated Tue. Aug.13:
Let´s face it, iontoforesis is a bit of an ordeal, you have to plan atleast up to 30 minutes of treatment and app, 15 minutes of preparation each day for a number of days which misc. manufacturers or dermatologists don´t agree upon, and then on top of that, after attaining success, you need to maintain those treatments at a frequency which hardly anyone agrees upon either. I´m basically the sort of person who thinks my life is too short for that kind of sh**, so I thought it would be smarter to get ETS, because I couldn´t be bothered with all this crap when I was younger. Now, when it´s evident that ETS failed for me, and I´m fed up with misc. Toxic, useless and painful drugs, I´m turning my attention to iontoforesis, and wonder why I didn´t get a device 10 years ago.
The problem: My feet and hands would drive me nuts with excessive sweating. (update: since I began this post, I have solved my problem 100 % buying an Idromed 4 iontophoresis device)
Why am I having this problem? nobody really knows for sure. I´ve never met a doctor who had a clue whatsoever. Be it about the treatment for HH or about the reasons for the disorder.
The remedies: Pinker´s extensive presentation of misc treatments for HH
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Iontophoresis machines:
What are they, is it some kind of magic?
A iontophoresis machine is really just based on a very simple variable power supply with an amperemetre, similar to the type that might supply your kid´s toy train or e.g. power some small electric motor that can run at various speeds. There´s nothing magical about it, and in reality they all function from the same basic design with a few variations. Originally, Iontophoresis was designed to propel molecules of misc. drugs through the skin, and apparently it was discovered by chance that ions seem to have an inhibiting effect on sweat glands.
All the existing iontophoresis machines available online seem to originate in a construction like the Fischer MD 1a. Probably the other makers bought one and realised there is nothing to making one, since the design is so simple that it´s probably not possible to patent it anylonger. The design of the baths vary, and there are three mains powered options (Fischer MD 1a, Dr Höenle Idromed 4 and the I2M Iomax 4) the rest as far as I know are battery powered, some using LR6 (AA) and others e.g. 9v batteries. The reason for the battery designs being (according to Finni Syndergaard) that it´s not easy to get govt. approval for devices designed to electrocute people by a mains outlet. Slightly higher voltages would be considered torture by Geneva conventions, so he´s probably right about that point. It appears the battery design gets around some restrictions which demand costly approval procedures. Other sides of the battery vs mains power supply haven´t become clear to me yet, but some issues seem to be relevant, like the human body as a resistor being a variable.
What´s inside them?
We are going to find that out, step by step. I would appreciate any detailed photos of the insides of any ionto-device, but take great care if you try to open the cabinet, and be aware that you may forfeit any warranties and money-back guaranties. The manufacturers are very keen to design the boxes to break for the inexperienced. Also be aware that if you break anything of the construction, the device may be rendered dangerous for you to use. Preferably have a trained electronics mechanic help you out with this.
Here´s a picture of the print circuit inside an Idromed 4:
http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/large/Idromed4_print_circuit1.jpg
Why does iontophoresis work?
Nobody really seems to know. The miscellaneous manufacturers all claim to refer to scientific studies, but never present them. My guess is that rather than tap water, the active ingredient in iontoforesis are metal ions ( like with the anti-perspirants that are using aluminium ions) migrating through your body from plus to minus, through the waterways of your body. Do they all leave at the exit? Metal ions are quite toxic if you should decide to eat them. What happens to the metal ions that get trapped in your body, when you cut the power? We all eat a lot of metal ions more or less intentionally. What´s the long term effect of these additional ions in our system?
So Why is it that iontoforesis has an inhibiting effect on sweat? Personally, I don´t think that the ions “clogging” up the sweat glands story seems very plausible. From a hydraulic point of view that doesn´t make sense. Otherwise my feet would be swelling like a lake behind a dam. My feet rather feel relieved after iontoforesis. What´s more likely is that the sensory system has sensors in the skin, which are designed to help regulate the internal temperature in the limbs, by evaluating external temperature in conjunction with internal temperature, and projecting eventual damage to the internal system as a product of that function . I prefer to think that my sensory system is working allright, so the reason my feet-skin-sensors is (possibly) reporting = hot, is that the temperature in that particular limb is probably too high, and the “central cpu” reacts by opening the sweat glands to regulate the limb temperature by loosing h2O molecules.
Evidently the sweating tends to cease at least for a time after an iontoforesis treatment so the excessive sweating is at least to a part due to functions of the skin-combo rather than originating in the endocrine- or central nervous system.
Maybe the external temperature sensors in the limbs of an HH victim is out of calibration for some reason, maybe I´m wearing too much clothes, maybe I´m overweight (resulting In too effective insulation of the body), maybe I´m eating/drinking compunds that tends to build up excessive reserves of water in my body, which again the body decides to dump when possible.
Can I use any type of tap water? No, there has to be sufficient mineral content, specifically HCO3- in it. A lot of people don´t have to worry about this, because there´s already a lot of HCO3- in their water. Other people need to add it. Apparently from my experiences in this forum, that´s also quite a lot of people, depending where they live and how the waterworks are mixing their water. Dr Höenle doesn´t mention this vital point in the Idromed 4 manual at all. Fischer is aware of the necessity of a certain amount of "conductivity", and recommends adding baking soda if your local water is "soft" If the water is considered soft, it doesn´t have enough HCO3- (negative ion) "mineral" to carry the metal ions on to the skin. The reason being that "hard" water precipitates through porous rocks or soil into the underground and it picks up traces of the minerals in the porous rock on it´s way down. "Soft" water is precipitated through hard rock like granite, which doesn´t combine with the water, so it is devoid of minerals. Surface water pumped from lakes also has no minerals worth speaking of. You can find out how much HCO3- is in your tap water by contacting your local water works, and then calculate precisely how much Baking soda you need to add, on the basis of how much HCO3- my tap water (which works fine for iontophoresis) has = 358 mg/l. My suggestion for anyone who wants to make this simple, is get a 20 $ digital food scale which has a precision of atleast 0,5 grammes, which is roughly the amount of Baking soda you need for one litre of hyper_hydro licensed iontophoresis water. To make things even simpler, you buy a second hand 10 litre jerry can (make sure it´s only been used for water) or a similar sized camping water container and fill it up with your tap water. Then you weigh out 5 grams of Baking soda (the pure undiluted NaHCO3, real mccoy, e.g. Arm & Hammer stuff naturally), pour it in and shake the can a bit to make sure it´s dissolved. Leave it somewhere cool, so you´re ready for ionto whenever you need it. This amount of water would suffice for 3 of my simultaneous feet/hands treatments using the Idromed 4 trays. By making up 10 litres at a time, you ensure more uniform HCO3- "density" than using "a teaspoon" or "a pinch" and you can count on your amperage settings from time to time. Please note. Baking soda: Natrium hydrogen carbonate, Sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3, or sodium hydrogen, as it is usually called, is not the same as baking powder.
A number of people in the forum who have tried using Baking soda ie HCO3- as an additive has experienced dramatic change in the amperage which is tolerable and complained about pain if they try to use their previous settings. I suspect this is because of an other undescribed factor in the water which is the complexity of combined conductivity. Other minerals like Chloride and Sulfates also convey conductivity highly, so if those minerals are present in the water abundantly, my theory is that adding the necessary HCO3- will also boost conductivity excessively, thereby making even very small amperages intolerable. Possibly the adding density of HCO3- minus will allow iontophoreis to work anyway even at very low amperages, if you simple extend therapy. A way around this problem could be again to make up your own iontophoresis water from scratch, as I have described. It´s not clear to me to which extent that is actually necessary though, but many water works add chloride to the water, so if it contains natural sulphates abundantly excessive conductivity might occur.
By bombarding the skin with ions (iontoforesis) we are probably “deafening” the sensory system´s local skin sensors to external input about temperature (and maybe input about microscopic activity in the skin combo such as e.g. pollen??), and this could be why sweating ceases abruptly for many people. It also explains why iontoforesis is not a permanent “plug” but has to be maintained. Please give me some positive feedback on these thoughts anyone…
Who makes Ionto-devices, and what are the good and bad points about the different types of machines in trade?
I need your input for this section members, I can only speak about my experiences with Idromed 4
Drionic (American) http://www.drionic.com http://www.neurotronics.com.au/products/drionic.htm
info on drionic modification and how to use it
http://www.geocities.com/drionicmods/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/drionicmods/nobatteries.html
Fischer (American) Fischer MD 1a http://www.rafischer.com/prod05.htm
I2M (French) (misc. models) http://www.i2m-labs.com/p_gb/index.htm
http://www.ajgruppen.no/
http://www.stdpharm.co.uk/iontophoresis/idrostar-home.html
Finni Syndergaard (Danish) Dermatol http://home0.inet.tele.dk/finnis/
Dr. Hönle Medizintechnik (German) Idromed4 GS and PS
note this! if you order one, make sure you get it with the new aluminum electrodes, and not the old "stainless" galvanized steel electrodes (mine are already rusting 9 days old) aluminum ions are the active ingredient in all effective anti-perspirants, so it makes sense to change your electrodes to aluminum, whichever ionto-device you own.
http://www.iontophoresis-device.com/ (six weeks money-back guarantee)
http://beatpsoriasis.com/shop/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=44
http://www.drhoenle.de/index.php?id=4
http://www.idromed.de/pdf/hoenle_pdfidromed.pdf
http://www.dermahealthcare.no/Iontophorese.htm
English manual: http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/Idromed4_manual_eng.pdf
danish sales brochure:
http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/Idromed 4 GS - PS.doc
Hidrex (German) http://www.hidrex.de/englisch/index.htm
manual is available as pdf from the web site, but in german only
Drysure (Australian) http://www.wayne-electronics.com.au/ Flyer: http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/NewFlyer2006.pdf
Jonomed (Italian) http://www.bielsan.com/tit/itbijondr.htm
http://www.androline.com/inglese/h-jonomed.htm
(owners of ionto-devices, please scan your manuals, save them as pdf files, then make digital photos of the documentation stickers behind your devices, and make them available to me)
Recommendable:
Which of these can be recommended? The german Idromed 4 get´s the editors choice award, and the american Fischer MD 1a is another highly recommended mains powered device, although I´d say it has a serious drawback because of the trays being too small for simultaneaous feet and hands treatment. The Fischer evidently hasn´t been revised for many years, and it seems that Fischer is totally unaware of the obvious tremendous advantage of simultaneous feet/hands treatment. The french I2M Idrostar battery operated device is a favourite by many members of misc. forums and it has larger trays, but I don´t know if they´re large enough for simultaneous h/f. Both the Idromed 4 and the Idrostar has excellent portable design if you´re the travelling kind. The battery operated danish Dermatol is the cheapest device I have found so far.
All of these 4 devices will do the job just as good, provided that the power source is dependable and durable. The Idrostar 4 unquestionably is the best value for money along with Dermatol, if you don´t need a design that travels. My advice is to stay away from other ionto-devices apart from the 4 I have placed as recommendable.
Why do they cost so much?
Beats the hell out of me! I´m going to try to make an assessment of what the basic components might cost, and then figure out what it costs to get something like that approved for human health use by European standards.
So who is making the bucks?
Well the manufacturer of Idromed 4 (A.L.T. Lichttherapie GMBH, Thura Mark 10 - 06780) is owned and directed by the same people who owns Dr Höenle. Markus Bindner said he pays 400 Euro for the device, which means he has to sell A LOT of them, before he gets fat. If I sold any products with that profit margin, I would get a boot from my employer. It seems strange that the retail price which I payed could then be including "Steuer" = value added sales tax, but those taxes are maybe variable in Germany, whereas in Denmark we pay 25 % MOMS (and mom can´t count of getting much of that!) Yes that´s true so stop whining anybody else, because that comes on top of out income taxes. Actually in Germany according to Markus Bindner the intoforesis devices are entirely covered by health insurance, whereas in the UK, atleast some part is subsidised. In Denmark you have to pay for all of it yourself
The AC/AC converter that comes with the device, is also made in Germany by FRIWO according to the product information printed on it. According to Markus Bindner this part and the security certificates which German health authorities demand is one of the reasons why the device ends up being so expensive. FRIWO also makes very similar converters for e.g. battery chargers. Those converters cost around Dkr 3-400 app USD 60,- retail in a danish electrical appliance store. The construction design and material (molded plastic) is very similar to the Idromed 4 AC/AC converter apart from the foot/table switch.
I would imagine the Fischer device comes with a similar ac/ac converter for the north american market, and it´s very unlikely that Fischer themselves are producing any of the components of their device either. North american customers who might want to buy the Idromed 4 device has to buy a voltage "step-up" converter which doesn´t really seem very smart. Why have a converter before the converter? Dr Höenle is evidently not very interested in the north american market, since it would be no big problem for FRIWO to make a north american AC/AC converter. Markus Bindner´s home page:
Quote:
(Customers in 110-130 V locations such as the USA and Japan will need to use a "step-up" power transformer to convert 110v to 230v. Available (its cheap) in almost every electronic store.)
Maybe health certificates for the north american market comes in here, as cost factor? Does anyone know anything about the costs/procedures of having a iontoforesis device like Fischer tested and approved for clinic use in the US? I don´t believe north american rules are any tougher than european, probably vice versa, but it works like red tape to protect the local manufacturers.
Comparing Idromed 4 with Fischer MD 1 A from the point of view of a danish customer:
You get exactly the same efficiency. Electric current is electric current. Don´t let anybody tell you anything else. I can´t see from the Fischer material whether it will be supplied with 240 volts mains adapter when shipped to Europe, so that could mean I may have to buy a converter which probably will be hard to find with approval for medical use. The Idromed 4 and it´s mains adapter has all european certificates necessary for use in a (european) medical clinic. The Fischer MD 1a was originally designed for clinic use only (in the US), but does it have the certificates required for clinic use in the European Union?? I can´t seem to find any information about that in the Fischer sales info. One serious drawback for the Fischer MD 1a is that they apparently only sell to prescription from dermatologists. Anyone like me, who is weary of incompetent doctors will find that a major deciding factor, but most dermatologists can probably be talked into writing one for a fee...
What do I get with the Idromed 4, which I don´t get with the Fischer MD 1 a?
1) Portable design: All of the equipment fits in a protective case, which can be divided into two halves to serve as the therapy baths. Same design as the Idrostar. (Dr Hönle probably stole this idea from I2M but actually I don´t know which factory came up with that idea first, so anybody please correct me on that detail. The Idromed 3 was a design more like the Fischer MD 1a. My guess is, that Dr Hönle probably began with buying a Fischer MD 1 a, took it apart and copied it, much like a lot of early japanese designs of misc. hardware began in the early 30´ies, 40´ies and 50´ies by copying european and american designs) I like the portable design a lot, since I will be travelling for months abroad with the equipment, and one of the reasons I rejected the danish Dermatol (Finni Syndergaard) design, is precisely that the manufacturer does not provide a transport case, and the therapy baths are highly unpractical for transport.
2) Larger therapy baths: The Fischer MD 1 a comes with 9 x 12 inch trays = app. 22 x 30, while the Idromed 4 has 10 x 14 inch = 26 x 39 cm
Now this would be one of the deciding factors for me: It´s a competitive variable not even mentioned in any of the product descriptions of any iontophoresis device. I didn´t realize how great an advantage I would gain by simultaneous treatment of hands and feet before I read the Idromed 4 manual. Dr Hönle doesn´t even mention this feature on their web site ( a lot of members in this forum has commented that Dr Hönle doesn´t have very much info (in english) about the Idromed 4, but even in german they don´t describe simultaneous theraphy of hands and feet very well in either site or pdf sales material) With the Fischer MD 1 a, I would be forced to treat hands and feet separately, thereby doubling the total time I have to "waste" in therapy. My foot is app 25 cm long, and around 11 cm at the widest, which means I would barely be able to squeeze both feet into one Fischer tray in a rather uncomfortable way, while they fit amply in one Idromed 4 therapy bath. Ofcourse one could buy larger trays for the Fischer MD 1a and that probably wouldn´t be very expensive.
3) FOOT/TABLE switch: This is entirely Dr Hönle´s own idea. I haven´t seen any of the others with this feature, which is ingenious. You could modify the Fischer MD 1 a with a switch between the mains converter and the MD 1a, and achieve the same advantages: It allows for treatment of hands and feet completely solo, without anyone to assist you. With the Fischer MD 1 a you will get zapped if you lift one hand from one of the baths to turn the device off. With the Idromed 4 you simply cut the power with the foot/table switch. You still have remember to return the mA dial back to zero before the next therapy though, or you will get zapped anyway next time you hit the swith again, so with both of these machines you need a helper to turn up the mAmps atleast for hands treatment alone (ie one hand i each bath) unless you have very articulate feet so you can turn the dial with your toes . With the Idromed 4 you can place both feet in one bath and e.g. your left hand in the other bath, thereby closing the circuit to avoid getting zapped, while you gradually turn the mAmps dial up with the right hand untill you reach your comfortable setting, and then place the right hand in the bath with the left hand. There is a slighty higher tension noticeable in both feet and left hand before you join the right hand, so I usually turn up the mAmps untill I feel a slight stinging, which is then relieved when the rght hand comes in.
This simultaneous treatment allows for e.g. answering the phone, switching channels on your tv set, turning a page in your book, or enjoying a sip of your favourite brew during therapy. If you want to do that with the Fischer MD 1a in it´s factory setup, you need a helper.
What do I get with the Fischer MD 1a, which I don´t get with the Idromed 4 ?
1) a tuitional DVD, which I have to pay extra 50 USD for, and is only availble for physicians
2) Fischer actually mentions in their manual, that the conductivity of the minerals in the water is important, and suggests using baking soda so make the water "harder" if the therapy doesn´t seem effective.
What´s the price of Fischer MD 1a versus Idromed 4 a?
Fischer MD 1a ships to Denmark for Dkr 3.590,- USD 615,- incl. insurance and shipment, and I bought the Idromed 4 for Dkr 3.528,- USD 604,- including moms (VAT) insurance and shipment. (Does anybody see why I´m talking about cartel-like organization?)
HOWEVER, if the customs officers snap my parcel from the US, they will slam me with the danish moms (VAT) on top of the Fischer price, meaning I most likely will end up paying Dkr 4.569,- USD 782,77 INCL VAT for the Fischer unit. Actually customs may even add a slight import duty on the goods also. The european union does that, because the Bush administration has imposed import duties on european steel export to the US Sad
Last edited by hyper_hydro on Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:07 am; edited 22 times in total
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jimmy
Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 122
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Good research, wish I had time to do the same. Glad its all in one post too
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Pinker
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: Reply with quote
For those of you looking for a quick fix I would definitely recommend you try glycoprronium solution. I had one treatment with this before I went on holiday and my hands and feet were perfectly dry for the week. The sweating came back the following week because obviously I had only given it one treatment and left it at that. It takes me 7 or 8 treatments with water to reach the same state. I can imagine perfect dryness if I used this solution say twice a week every week.
I'm gonna get hold of some smaller trays I can customise so I use less of the solution (they don't give you much). I think once you've used it as well you can pour it back into the bottle and re-use it a few times.
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A comprehensive list of Hyperhidrosis remedies: (Updated)
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Idrostar i2m + water and Glycopyrronium Bromide 0.05% maintenance treatments.
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hyper_hydro
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 695
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
thanks Pinker, how much do you get, and what does it cost? app. how much do you use in each treatment? can you scan/photograph the label/instructions for use and post it somewhere for me to see?
Very Happy
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jimmy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Also, in the UK do you need a prescription, or do you just need to ask for it?
Thanks Very Happy
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Pinker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I got a prescription from my doctor and just ordered it from a chemist (pharmacy) so there was no cost involved. The pharmacy had to order it though which takes about a week.
I'm not sure about the volume because it had no labels on it apart from the name. The bottle was probably about 20cm tall and 10cm wide if that helps Lol. There wasn't enough though so next time i'll ask for more, and make smaller trays as I said.
I'll try and get a photograph of a bottle next time I order it.
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A comprehensive list of Hyperhidrosis remedies: (Updated)
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Idrostar i2m + water and Glycopyrronium Bromide 0.05% maintenance treatments.
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hyper_hydro
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 695
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
No need for bottle pictures pinker Very Happy what I was interested in is the prescription information ie chemical formula and the instructions for use. When you buy prescription medicals in Denmark there has to be a label on them, describing the exact content and details of use for that particular treatment. If you shoot a digital photo or scan you can delete the detals about you or the doctor if you like. I´m also really interested in what it costs and how much is needed for iontoforesis. Do you know what metal your electrodes are made of? (the alloy) Thanks for your help Pinker Very Happy
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Pinker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
The machine has two hard, silver metal plates that are placed in each tray. I think it could be steal because its very rigid. I don't think it matters as long as the material conducts electricity. Its oxidised so it loses electrons which travel to the pores in the skin and "shock" the sweat glands which somehow stops them working.
The trays here are almost identical to mine
http://www.i2m-labs.com/images/mainsidrostar.jpg
It didn't cost me anything because health stuff is free here. Again I don't know the quantities but more is better of course. But I used half glycopirrolate and half water so it was quite diluted and got dry hands from that.
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A comprehensive list of Hyperhidrosis remedies: (Updated)
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Idrostar i2m + water and Glycopyrronium Bromide 0.05% maintenance treatments.
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hyper_hydro
Joined: 02 May 2006
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It didn't cost me anything because health stuff is free here
Ok Pinker, all medicin is free in the UK as long as it is prescribed? That´s great. It´s not all free I guess, since you had to pay atleast in part for your iontoforesis device.
It seems like you have steel electrodes like I do. You´re probably right that only the electrons are entering the body, and the aluminum electrodes are simply a bit more effective than steel (and cheaper to make, plus I´m guessing they also wear out faster), because aluminum is more willing to give up it´s electrons, but then how come they don´t use copper for the electrodes, if it´s only about conductivity? Oxidized copper is very toxic, so evidently someone IS worried that the metal can enter the skin somehow.
What exactly came in the box with your Idrostar? Can you possibly scan the manual and make it available for download for me somehow? Thanks a lot for all your helpful comments. Very Happy
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idripswet
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Pinker...is the glycoprronium solution a liquid? I live in the U.S., and I would like to try and use this with my iontophoresis machine. Do you have it compounded? Is it just water and glycoprronium? I may ask my doctor to compound it, but i guess I need to know what the actual components are. Thanks!
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok I guess I have to take that part about dirt cheap chinese manufacturers back. I asked Dr Höenle about the part in the manual which recommends a 2 year service check at their service facilities, and got a reply from Anke Niyaz at A.L.T. Lichttherapie, which states that the above mentioned recommendation in the manual only refers to clinics and dermatologists, and that for private customers, the recommendation need not be taken that literally. It´s referring to a rule in german health services, that all equipment of that type must be checked every 2 years. If I should decide to send it however, it would cost me somewehere in the vicinity of 70 Euro.
Markus Bindner tells me that A.L.T. is a production company owned and directed by the same people who own Dr Höenle.
Having the contact to Anke, I asked about the word "hergestellt" on back of the Idromed 4, as opposed to the words "made in Germany" on the FRIWO AC/AC converter, and she replied the following:
Good morning,
"Hergestellt" means manufactured/produced. All parts in the idromed 4 are made in Germany, even if we don't manufacture all assembly parts ourselves, but get them from German sub-suppliers.
I hope I could help you.
Kind regards,
Ms. Anke Niyaz
International Sales & Marketing
Dr. K. Hoenle Medizintechnik GmbH
If anyone at Dr Höenle or A.L.T. follows this forum, I would like to apologize for my allegation regarding chinese manufacturers, and I´m going to edit all parts of my posts containing that comment as soon as possible.
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poison
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: Reply with quote
hyper_hydro wrote:
Quote:
It didn't cost me anything because health stuff is free here
Ok Pinker, all medicin is free in the UK as long as it is prescribed? That´s great. It´s not all free I guess, since you had to pay atleast in part for your iontoforesis device.
I got a "loan" of the Drionic machine. They told me how to use it and I got to take it home. They said I could keep it for a month or 2 then if it worked I had the option to buy it for about £130.
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Pinker
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
idripswet wrote:
Pinker...is the glycoprronium solution a liquid? I live in the U.S., and I would like to try and use this with my iontophoresis machine. Do you have it compounded? Is it just water and glycoprronium? I may ask my doctor to compound it, but i guess I need to know what the actual components are. Thanks!
Yes it came as a white liquid diluted to a 0.05% concentration. I thought it would be in powder form and they didn't give me enough liquid really.
The solution is called glycopyrronium bromide 0.05%
I think it is commonly used here in British NHS hospitals so they should be aware of it in the US I think
http://www.addenbrookes.org.uk/consent/forms/cfpi_030_derm_ion.pdf
hyper_hydro wrote:
What exactly came in the box with your Idrostar? Can you possibly scan the manual and make it available for download for me somehow? Thanks a lot for all your helpful comments.
Here's a google image of the machine if it helps
http://www.i2m-labs.com/images/moyennes/Idrostar.jpg
Its very basic. Just the actual unit, 2 cables with chrocodile clips, 2 "stainless steel" electrodes, 2 plastic grilles which go on top of the plates, and the actual case which doubles up as the trays. Bit of a disgrace what they charge for these machines really.
I don't have access to a scanner but the manual doesn't say anything new basically. It makes clear not to go past 20mA though. The light goes red at 18mA as a precaution.
I had to pay for my machine because it was from a private company. The NHS is poor Laughing Though before I purchased the machine I used one at a hospital to see if it would work, and whether I needed to use the glycoprrolate if the water failed.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
hyper_hydro wrote:
Ok I guess I have to take that part about dirt cheap chinese manufacturers back. I asked Dr Höenle about the part in the manual which recommends a 2 year service check at their service facilities, and got a reply from Anke Niyaz at A.L.T. Lichttherapie, which states that the above mentioned recommendation in the manual only refers to clinics and dermatologists, and that for private customers, the recommendation need not be taken that literally. It´s referring to a rule in german health services, that all equipment of that type must be checked every 2 years, if it is used professionally. If I should decide to send it however, it would cost me somewehere in the vicinity of 70 Euro.
Markus Bindner tells me that A.L.T. is a production company owned and directed by the same people who own Dr Höenle.
Having the contact to Anke, I asked about the word "hergestellt" on back of the Idromed 4, as opposed to the words "made in Germany" on the FRIWO AC/AC converter, and she replied the following:
Good morning,
"Hergestellt" means manufactured/produced. All parts in the idromed 4 are made in Germany, even if we don't manufacture all assembly parts ourselves, but get them from German sub-suppliers.
I hope I could help you.
Kind regards,
Ms. Anke Niyaz
International Sales & Marketing
Dr. K. Hoenle Medizintechnik GmbH
If anyone at Dr Höenle or A.L.T. follows this forum, I would like to apologize for my allegation regarding chinese manufacturers, and I´m going to edit all parts of my posts containing that comment as soon as possible.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It makes clear not to go past 20mA though. The light goes red at 18mA as a precaution.
Ok Pinker that´s interesting. The Idromed 4 manual says 15 mA is the limit for hands, 25 mA (full power) for feet. There´s no warning on the device itself though.
Sixers what does the Fischer/Drionis manual say about amperage limits?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Seems like Ed may be trying to sort out the problem with deletion and editing of the posts. I tried to edit my post about my apology for alleging chinese manufacture, and instead of editing the original post it made a new one, in which I´m quoting myself...and I don´t get the possibility of deleting the post as was possible earlier. This way you can always see what the original post was about which is smart I guess... Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:53 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks so muc, that was very helpful!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm planning on making a deep tray for my iontophoresis machine so I can treat my whole foot not just the soles of my feet. But i'm a bit confused about where to fix the metal tray.
I was wondering does the skin have to be almost touching the metal plate for iontophoresis to work, or is it ok as long as the skin is in contact with the water? The only way I can think of attaching the metal is to fix it on the side of the tray so I can attach the croc clips at the top avoiding getting the cable in the water. I figure it'd work because when i'm using the machine and I just place my free hand at the surface of the water I get a strong tingle.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Pinker
For the ions to be able to reach the whole surface of the sole of your foot, I guess you have to shift position of your foot from time to time during the treatment, so you don´t have parts of the foot covered by the plastic mesh all the time. If you move the foot a little now and then, the distribution of ions should be quite effective. It has been for me anyway, and I let my feet rest on the mesh directly over the electrode for the duration, only shifting positions a few times. Did you see the new electrodes for the Idromed 4 in my last post about Idromed 4 electrodes? click the links to the images, and you can see they are much larger than the old ones, ie making the density of ions in the water greater. Maybe it would be an idea to order those for your Idrostar. The gold-plated cable pin however, is in the plate itself, on the bottom in the tray, and there´s a black rubber insulation app 2,5 cm wide up to the gold-plated tip for attaching the cable, meaning I can only fill up to that level, or maybe it´s necessary to make the pin longer. I don´t know if there´s any problem in the cable actually getting into the water, but I´ll be asking Anke or Markus about that, and get back to you.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
it doesnt matter if the cable is in (the water), it cant be (any) other (way), so the current goes ever the easiest way, it is (in) the electrode, never the water...
Pinker, the above is the answer I got from Markus, and it is correct in my opinion, regarding the fact that the current will prefer travelling in the metal cable/electrode combo rather than in the water. In any case I´ll try it in a few minutes so we´ll know for sure Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: 1´st maintenance therapy. New aluminium electrodes Reply with quote
Took my first maintenance treatment today, in order to try out my new aluminium electrodes, although I´m not even beginning to sweat from my hands and feet yet, in spite of this wonderful summer weather.
Started out by plucking some hairs (ouch) and storing them in an uncontaminated plastic bag, as Vicky suggested, so I have the record of life before ionto, and the short 11 day period with stainless steel electrodes.
Pinker, as you see: http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/_MG_8037_1.jpg
The cable leads directly into the water, and when my hands are dipped in the tray, the water level rises above the section where the cable meets the gold-plating of the cable-pin on the electrode. I recommend these plates for your deeper tray. You can make the tray as deep as you like. Remember to order a set of Idromed 4 cables (and perhaps the plastic mesh if you need that), you´ll just need to change the connector in the end which meets your Idrostar, because the plugs are probably not the same. The plates measure 17 x 31,5 cm and the mesh is 22 x 36 cm The cable is precisely long enough to comfortably reach a tray on the floor, having the other tray on the table in front of you, and the ionto-device and power switch on the table to the right.
Had a 30 minute simultaneous treatment hands/feet with plus pole at the feet, and 10 mA of amperage: The sensation of the current is exactly the same as with stainless steel. I used the same amount of water in the tray as I did with stainless steel: 2.25 litres
Sad Markus says COD "cash on delivery" is not possible in the UK, evidently the UK and German post services don´t work together, so I guess you´ll have to prepay them:
Quote:
cod is not possible in england, the retail price for the electrodes is 37 eur cables 23 mesh 6 eur
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Pinker
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I've got hold of 2 makeshift containers so all i've got to do is get hold of some stainless steel or just some steel to act as the electrodes. I just can't think of where i can get hold of some sheets of steel though lol.
On your pictures in the other thread I was surprised how much the steel on your machine had corroded (gone a brownish colour). I've had the idrostar for around 6 months now and the steel is still very shiny with just some faint brown speccles.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Pinker wrote:
I've got hold of 2 makeshift containers so all i've got to do is get hold of some stainless steel or just some steel to act as the electrodes. I just can't think of where i can get hold of some sheets of steel though lol.
On your pictures in the other thread I was surprised how much the steel on your machine had corroded (gone a brownish colour). I've had the idrostar for around 6 months now and the steel is still very shiny with just some faint brown speccles.
I know, I was surprised by that myself, and particularly since it was primarily the plus pole taking damage. The minus isn´t half as bad (and actually the corrosion on that could stem from the one or two times I accidentally swapped them, or once I actually did switch polarity. Normally people shift the polarities but I didn´t because my feet were sweating so bad, Markus recommended me not to shift polarity, but keep the plus at the feet, because plus is actually what does the job. You only shift polarity to get an even effect. In the first 10 treatments I actually tried to keep amperage at 15 mA all the time, because I though that the more amperage the better the effect might be.
I´d love to stick your feet in my Idromed 4 for 10 treatments and see if you could do without the glycopyrrolate using my gear Very Happy I´ve seen posts in other forums that would claim Fisher did the job better because of the mains outlet power as opposed to batteries, but presently I can´t prove that. What exactly is the battery source in the Idrostar? If I can get hold of the battery and figure out what combined value of resistance my body and the tray/water is in ohms, I´d like to see how long such a battery can drag that load at 15 mAmps.
I can see why it seems hard to accept that aluminum or iron/chromium ions from the plus pole is active with the feet, if your electrodes don´t decay, but for me it´s pretty obvious that metal is spent from the plus pole, so where does it go? Naturally onto the feet/hands Very Happy Some is also settling on the bottom of the tray. The plus pole tray has a faint red shadow of the electrode outline.
Did you ever try adding baking soda as the Fischer manual says? Maybe your water doesn´t have enough "minerals" = active negative ions to transport the metal ions off the electrodes?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I just can't think of where i can get hold of some sheets of steel though lol.
That´s why I thought it might be easier just to get these Very Happy If Dr Höenle thought the future is stainless steel, they probably wouldn´t have changed to aluminium recently, after using stainless steel for many years. Anyway, there´s probably a good reason for the insulation strip of rubber around the connecting pin reaching app. 2,5 cm up from the bottom of the plate....
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
It runs on 4 AA batteries. Pretty crap really I have to recharge them after every treatment.
So does your machine have aluminium or steel electrodes? What batteries does it run on?
I don't understand about what is the positive and negative polarity on my machine. It just has "1" and "2". No indication which cable is the positive.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok Pinker, the Idromed 4 runs on 240 volts mains power by an AC/AC converter plugged into a power point in my wall. Double A´s wear out quickly as you have noted yourself, so honestly I think that´s a weak side to the Idrostar. Especially if you want to carry out 30 minutes of therapy as I have been doing. I have just recently switched to new aluminium electrodes as you can see in the pictures I posted. Before that I used stainless steel which came with the device less than 14 days ago. Markus sent me a free set of the new electrodes. Apparently Dr Höenle made the change overnight without marking the kits which had the new electrodes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Also HH, are the trays that came with your machine deep enough to treat your whole foot? lol so many questions.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I don't understand about what is the positive and negative polarity on my machine. It just has "1" and "2". No indication which cable is the positive.
See this is why I really want the original manual Very Happy When you look at the images all ionto´s seem alike. It seems to me maybe I2M haven´t even realized that the positive pole is more effective, or maybe they don´t think you ought to know?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
questions are fine Pinker Very Happy the more the better. Please look at the images in the post above, you can see there´s plenty of room for both feet even with the new electrodes, but as you have pointed out, it might be a good idea to have slightly deeper trays to treat the sides of the feet more effectively.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I just reverse the polarity so i'm guessing both the hand and foot get the positive and negative current.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Why did they switch to aluminium electrodes? Do they hold an advantage?
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
ok sorry Pinker, the photos are in this thread: http://www.esfbchannel.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1155&start=15
post called new electrodes...
Yes I think it´s because aluminium ions as a competitive inhibitor is more aggressive in competing for the negative ions in the skin than the combined ions in the stainless steel electrode. Ofcourse it could also be because aluminium electrodes are cheaper to manufacture, but in fact it seems the new design is a bit more complicated in respect of the rubber insulation on the connecting pin..If you read the electrode post you can see what the factory representative, Anke wrote to me about the change to aluminium.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Hopefully I should have a better chance of getting hold of some aluminium and thats great if it does the job better. Maybe i'll just cut up some used cans or something Smile j/k
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:47 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
One last question, what is the average amperage you use during treatments? I keep it around 13 to 15mA.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, the danish Dermatol into-device made by Finni Syndergaard uses plain old aluminium baking trays for your oven, as combined electrode/therapy trays. His device is battery powered like yours. Who says it needs to be very fancy to work if the aluminium is pure? You can pick up the trays in most markets actually. It seem Finni was a bit ahead of anyone else on that point. My guess is you can probably make an Idrostar every bit as effective as Idromed 4 or Fischer, if you improve the power source.
Look at this: http://home0.inet.tele.dk/finnis/
I translated the text to english in one of my early posts in the "having
a hard time getting the facts" thread..(sheesh having a hard time figuring out which tread I´m writing in Embarassed )
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Pinker wrote:
One last question, what is the average amperage you use during treatments? I keep it around 13 to 15mA.
9-10 mAmps is my comfort zone. In the beginning I thought I had to go to just before I felt pain, which was 15 mAmps, but that´s not necessary at all. If you extend the treatment as I do to 30 minutes (and I don´t change the polarity, because my feet is the main problem, so I keep the plus pole at my feet tray) the effect will be just as good or even better.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Cool I was looking for a 240 volt option for the idrostar, but I´m beginning to find my own posts when I google Razz It looks like it´s something you have to make for yourself, but since someone made it for the Drionic ( see the big post I made about ionto´s in "Digging..." thread ), it couldn´t be a big problem to make (if you trust your own abilities as an electronics mechanic Razz ) I´ll keep looking to see if anyone made it (and if they didn´t I´d say the battery operation is probably good enough, you just need better batteries...double A´s unfortunately come in great variation)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Im sure I could do something but i'm not too keen on messing with something my dad spent a lot of money on for me Razz if it was mains fitted the components inside would probably need changing to take the huge current might they?
I can just rely on what i've got right now I guess. The glycopyrronium is a godsend the way it works so fast. I think it can be reused as well a few times.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok Pinker, but tell me how many mAH are your batteries rated at? You can get 2500 mAH now from e.g. Sanyo.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
It says 1.2V - 1700mAH
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
ok consider getting something better, actually non-rechargeables Duracell Ultra M3 rate atleast at 2800 mAH, but as I said you can also get Sanyo rechargeables at 2500 mAH. The rating alone doesn´t say everything about the batteries though.
found this link right now: http://www.nimhbattery.com/sanyo-2700-aa-rechargeable-batteries.htm
Sanyo is the top notch rechargeable AA.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I switched to using rechargeables because buying the duracel batteries every other week was just too expensive. I'll try and check out some others in time.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Will I need to buy a sanyo battery recharger do you think? I've got one that seems to recharge anything in 2 hours flat lol.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes but did you buy the right Duracells? Most people get the standard Duracells with the pink bunny TV ads, but they don´t cut it for demanding use. The only Duracell battery I would buy is the ULTRA M3 Still the rechargeables are obviously the best solution for the Idrostar.
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hyper_hydro
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Pinker wrote:
Will I need to buy a sanyo battery recharger do you think? I've got one that seems to recharge anything in 2 hours flat lol.
I think the charger you have will do just fine. Might take a bit longer because the new batteries have larger capacity. I have to say that some chargers are not up to what they promise, especially some that promise you express charging abilities with very high capacity batteries. I have quite a lot of experience with this, because I work with retail/wholesale trade of misc power dependent paraphernalia. The best charger I have come across is marketed by Olympus. Don´t take my words for it, read the reviews Very Happy
http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ
Let´s face it, iontoforesis is a bit of an ordeal, you have to plan atleast up to 30 minutes of treatment and app, 15 minutes of preparation each day for a number of days which misc. manufacturers or dermatologists don´t agree upon, and then on top of that, after attaining success, you need to maintain those treatments at a frequency which hardly anyone agrees upon either. I´m basically the sort of person who thinks my life is too short for that kind of sh**, so I thought it would be smarter to get ETS, because I couldn´t be bothered with all this crap when I was younger. Now, when it´s evident that ETS failed for me, and I´m fed up with misc. Toxic, useless and painful drugs, I´m turning my attention to iontoforesis, and wonder why I didn´t get a device 10 years ago.
The problem: My feet and hands would drive me nuts with excessive sweating. (update: since I began this post, I have solved my problem 100 % buying an Idromed 4 iontophoresis device)
Why am I having this problem? nobody really knows for sure. I´ve never met a doctor who had a clue whatsoever. Be it about the treatment for HH or about the reasons for the disorder.
The remedies: Pinker´s extensive presentation of misc treatments for HH
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Iontophoresis machines:
What are they, is it some kind of magic?
A iontophoresis machine is really just based on a very simple variable power supply with an amperemetre, similar to the type that might supply your kid´s toy train or e.g. power some small electric motor that can run at various speeds. There´s nothing magical about it, and in reality they all function from the same basic design with a few variations. Originally, Iontophoresis was designed to propel molecules of misc. drugs through the skin, and apparently it was discovered by chance that ions seem to have an inhibiting effect on sweat glands.
All the existing iontophoresis machines available online seem to originate in a construction like the Fischer MD 1a. Probably the other makers bought one and realised there is nothing to making one, since the design is so simple that it´s probably not possible to patent it anylonger. The design of the baths vary, and there are three mains powered options (Fischer MD 1a, Dr Höenle Idromed 4 and the I2M Iomax 4) the rest as far as I know are battery powered, some using LR6 (AA) and others e.g. 9v batteries. The reason for the battery designs being (according to Finni Syndergaard) that it´s not easy to get govt. approval for devices designed to electrocute people by a mains outlet. Slightly higher voltages would be considered torture by Geneva conventions, so he´s probably right about that point. It appears the battery design gets around some restrictions which demand costly approval procedures. Other sides of the battery vs mains power supply haven´t become clear to me yet, but some issues seem to be relevant, like the human body as a resistor being a variable.
What´s inside them?
We are going to find that out, step by step. I would appreciate any detailed photos of the insides of any ionto-device, but take great care if you try to open the cabinet, and be aware that you may forfeit any warranties and money-back guaranties. The manufacturers are very keen to design the boxes to break for the inexperienced. Also be aware that if you break anything of the construction, the device may be rendered dangerous for you to use. Preferably have a trained electronics mechanic help you out with this.
Here´s a picture of the print circuit inside an Idromed 4:
http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/large/Idromed4_print_circuit1.jpg
Why does iontophoresis work?
Nobody really seems to know. The miscellaneous manufacturers all claim to refer to scientific studies, but never present them. My guess is that rather than tap water, the active ingredient in iontoforesis are metal ions ( like with the anti-perspirants that are using aluminium ions) migrating through your body from plus to minus, through the waterways of your body. Do they all leave at the exit? Metal ions are quite toxic if you should decide to eat them. What happens to the metal ions that get trapped in your body, when you cut the power? We all eat a lot of metal ions more or less intentionally. What´s the long term effect of these additional ions in our system?
So Why is it that iontoforesis has an inhibiting effect on sweat? Personally, I don´t think that the ions “clogging” up the sweat glands story seems very plausible. From a hydraulic point of view that doesn´t make sense. Otherwise my feet would be swelling like a lake behind a dam. My feet rather feel relieved after iontoforesis. What´s more likely is that the sensory system has sensors in the skin, which are designed to help regulate the internal temperature in the limbs, by evaluating external temperature in conjunction with internal temperature, and projecting eventual damage to the internal system as a product of that function . I prefer to think that my sensory system is working allright, so the reason my feet-skin-sensors is (possibly) reporting = hot, is that the temperature in that particular limb is probably too high, and the “central cpu” reacts by opening the sweat glands to regulate the limb temperature by loosing h2O molecules.
Evidently the sweating tends to cease at least for a time after an iontoforesis treatment so the excessive sweating is at least to a part due to functions of the skin-combo rather than originating in the endocrine- or central nervous system.
Maybe the external temperature sensors in the limbs of an HH victim is out of calibration for some reason, maybe I´m wearing too much clothes, maybe I´m overweight (resulting In too effective insulation of the body), maybe I´m eating/drinking compunds that tends to build up excessive reserves of water in my body, which again the body decides to dump when possible.
Can I use any type of tap water? No, there has to be sufficient mineral content, specifically HCO3- in it. A lot of people don´t have to worry about this, because there´s already a lot of HCO3- in their water. Other people need to add it. Apparently from my experiences in this forum, that´s also quite a lot of people, depending where they live and how the waterworks are mixing their water. Dr Höenle doesn´t mention this vital point in the Idromed 4 manual at all. Fischer is aware of the necessity of a certain amount of "conductivity", and recommends adding baking soda if your local water is "soft" If the water is considered soft, it doesn´t have enough HCO3- (negative ion) "mineral" to carry the metal ions on to the skin. The reason being that "hard" water precipitates through porous rocks or soil into the underground and it picks up traces of the minerals in the porous rock on it´s way down. "Soft" water is precipitated through hard rock like granite, which doesn´t combine with the water, so it is devoid of minerals. Surface water pumped from lakes also has no minerals worth speaking of. You can find out how much HCO3- is in your tap water by contacting your local water works, and then calculate precisely how much Baking soda you need to add, on the basis of how much HCO3- my tap water (which works fine for iontophoresis) has = 358 mg/l. My suggestion for anyone who wants to make this simple, is get a 20 $ digital food scale which has a precision of atleast 0,5 grammes, which is roughly the amount of Baking soda you need for one litre of hyper_hydro licensed iontophoresis water. To make things even simpler, you buy a second hand 10 litre jerry can (make sure it´s only been used for water) or a similar sized camping water container and fill it up with your tap water. Then you weigh out 5 grams of Baking soda (the pure undiluted NaHCO3, real mccoy, e.g. Arm & Hammer stuff naturally), pour it in and shake the can a bit to make sure it´s dissolved. Leave it somewhere cool, so you´re ready for ionto whenever you need it. This amount of water would suffice for 3 of my simultaneous feet/hands treatments using the Idromed 4 trays. By making up 10 litres at a time, you ensure more uniform HCO3- "density" than using "a teaspoon" or "a pinch" and you can count on your amperage settings from time to time. Please note. Baking soda: Natrium hydrogen carbonate, Sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3, or sodium hydrogen, as it is usually called, is not the same as baking powder.
A number of people in the forum who have tried using Baking soda ie HCO3- as an additive has experienced dramatic change in the amperage which is tolerable and complained about pain if they try to use their previous settings. I suspect this is because of an other undescribed factor in the water which is the complexity of combined conductivity. Other minerals like Chloride and Sulfates also convey conductivity highly, so if those minerals are present in the water abundantly, my theory is that adding the necessary HCO3- will also boost conductivity excessively, thereby making even very small amperages intolerable. Possibly the adding density of HCO3- minus will allow iontophoreis to work anyway even at very low amperages, if you simple extend therapy. A way around this problem could be again to make up your own iontophoresis water from scratch, as I have described. It´s not clear to me to which extent that is actually necessary though, but many water works add chloride to the water, so if it contains natural sulphates abundantly excessive conductivity might occur.
By bombarding the skin with ions (iontoforesis) we are probably “deafening” the sensory system´s local skin sensors to external input about temperature (and maybe input about microscopic activity in the skin combo such as e.g. pollen??), and this could be why sweating ceases abruptly for many people. It also explains why iontoforesis is not a permanent “plug” but has to be maintained. Please give me some positive feedback on these thoughts anyone…
Who makes Ionto-devices, and what are the good and bad points about the different types of machines in trade?
I need your input for this section members, I can only speak about my experiences with Idromed 4
Drionic (American) http://www.drionic.com http://www.neurotronics.com.au/products/drionic.htm
info on drionic modification and how to use it
http://www.geocities.com/drionicmods/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/drionicmods/nobatteries.html
Fischer (American) Fischer MD 1a http://www.rafischer.com/prod05.htm
I2M (French) (misc. models) http://www.i2m-labs.com/p_gb/index.htm
http://www.ajgruppen.no/
http://www.stdpharm.co.uk/iontophoresis/idrostar-home.html
Finni Syndergaard (Danish) Dermatol http://home0.inet.tele.dk/finnis/
Dr. Hönle Medizintechnik (German) Idromed4 GS and PS
note this! if you order one, make sure you get it with the new aluminum electrodes, and not the old "stainless" galvanized steel electrodes (mine are already rusting 9 days old) aluminum ions are the active ingredient in all effective anti-perspirants, so it makes sense to change your electrodes to aluminum, whichever ionto-device you own.
http://www.iontophoresis-device.com/ (six weeks money-back guarantee)
http://beatpsoriasis.com/shop/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=44
http://www.drhoenle.de/index.php?id=4
http://www.idromed.de/pdf/hoenle_pdfidromed.pdf
http://www.dermahealthcare.no/Iontophorese.htm
English manual: http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/Idromed4_manual_eng.pdf
danish sales brochure:
http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/Idromed 4 GS - PS.doc
Hidrex (German) http://www.hidrex.de/englisch/index.htm
manual is available as pdf from the web site, but in german only
Drysure (Australian) http://www.wayne-electronics.com.au/ Flyer: http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/NewFlyer2006.pdf
Jonomed (Italian) http://www.bielsan.com/tit/itbijondr.htm
http://www.androline.com/inglese/h-jonomed.htm
(owners of ionto-devices, please scan your manuals, save them as pdf files, then make digital photos of the documentation stickers behind your devices, and make them available to me)
Recommendable:
Which of these can be recommended? The german Idromed 4 get´s the editors choice award, and the american Fischer MD 1a is another highly recommended mains powered device, although I´d say it has a serious drawback because of the trays being too small for simultaneaous feet and hands treatment. The Fischer evidently hasn´t been revised for many years, and it seems that Fischer is totally unaware of the obvious tremendous advantage of simultaneous feet/hands treatment. The french I2M Idrostar battery operated device is a favourite by many members of misc. forums and it has larger trays, but I don´t know if they´re large enough for simultaneous h/f. Both the Idromed 4 and the Idrostar has excellent portable design if you´re the travelling kind. The battery operated danish Dermatol is the cheapest device I have found so far.
All of these 4 devices will do the job just as good, provided that the power source is dependable and durable. The Idrostar 4 unquestionably is the best value for money along with Dermatol, if you don´t need a design that travels. My advice is to stay away from other ionto-devices apart from the 4 I have placed as recommendable.
Why do they cost so much?
Beats the hell out of me! I´m going to try to make an assessment of what the basic components might cost, and then figure out what it costs to get something like that approved for human health use by European standards.
So who is making the bucks?
Well the manufacturer of Idromed 4 (A.L.T. Lichttherapie GMBH, Thura Mark 10 - 06780) is owned and directed by the same people who owns Dr Höenle. Markus Bindner said he pays 400 Euro for the device, which means he has to sell A LOT of them, before he gets fat. If I sold any products with that profit margin, I would get a boot from my employer. It seems strange that the retail price which I payed could then be including "Steuer" = value added sales tax, but those taxes are maybe variable in Germany, whereas in Denmark we pay 25 % MOMS (and mom can´t count of getting much of that!) Yes that´s true so stop whining anybody else, because that comes on top of out income taxes. Actually in Germany according to Markus Bindner the intoforesis devices are entirely covered by health insurance, whereas in the UK, atleast some part is subsidised. In Denmark you have to pay for all of it yourself
The AC/AC converter that comes with the device, is also made in Germany by FRIWO according to the product information printed on it. According to Markus Bindner this part and the security certificates which German health authorities demand is one of the reasons why the device ends up being so expensive. FRIWO also makes very similar converters for e.g. battery chargers. Those converters cost around Dkr 3-400 app USD 60,- retail in a danish electrical appliance store. The construction design and material (molded plastic) is very similar to the Idromed 4 AC/AC converter apart from the foot/table switch.
I would imagine the Fischer device comes with a similar ac/ac converter for the north american market, and it´s very unlikely that Fischer themselves are producing any of the components of their device either. North american customers who might want to buy the Idromed 4 device has to buy a voltage "step-up" converter which doesn´t really seem very smart. Why have a converter before the converter? Dr Höenle is evidently not very interested in the north american market, since it would be no big problem for FRIWO to make a north american AC/AC converter. Markus Bindner´s home page:
Quote:
(Customers in 110-130 V locations such as the USA and Japan will need to use a "step-up" power transformer to convert 110v to 230v. Available (its cheap) in almost every electronic store.)
Maybe health certificates for the north american market comes in here, as cost factor? Does anyone know anything about the costs/procedures of having a iontoforesis device like Fischer tested and approved for clinic use in the US? I don´t believe north american rules are any tougher than european, probably vice versa, but it works like red tape to protect the local manufacturers.
Comparing Idromed 4 with Fischer MD 1 A from the point of view of a danish customer:
You get exactly the same efficiency. Electric current is electric current. Don´t let anybody tell you anything else. I can´t see from the Fischer material whether it will be supplied with 240 volts mains adapter when shipped to Europe, so that could mean I may have to buy a converter which probably will be hard to find with approval for medical use. The Idromed 4 and it´s mains adapter has all european certificates necessary for use in a (european) medical clinic. The Fischer MD 1a was originally designed for clinic use only (in the US), but does it have the certificates required for clinic use in the European Union?? I can´t seem to find any information about that in the Fischer sales info. One serious drawback for the Fischer MD 1a is that they apparently only sell to prescription from dermatologists. Anyone like me, who is weary of incompetent doctors will find that a major deciding factor, but most dermatologists can probably be talked into writing one for a fee...
What do I get with the Idromed 4, which I don´t get with the Fischer MD 1 a?
1) Portable design: All of the equipment fits in a protective case, which can be divided into two halves to serve as the therapy baths. Same design as the Idrostar. (Dr Hönle probably stole this idea from I2M but actually I don´t know which factory came up with that idea first, so anybody please correct me on that detail. The Idromed 3 was a design more like the Fischer MD 1a. My guess is, that Dr Hönle probably began with buying a Fischer MD 1 a, took it apart and copied it, much like a lot of early japanese designs of misc. hardware began in the early 30´ies, 40´ies and 50´ies by copying european and american designs) I like the portable design a lot, since I will be travelling for months abroad with the equipment, and one of the reasons I rejected the danish Dermatol (Finni Syndergaard) design, is precisely that the manufacturer does not provide a transport case, and the therapy baths are highly unpractical for transport.
2) Larger therapy baths: The Fischer MD 1 a comes with 9 x 12 inch trays = app. 22 x 30, while the Idromed 4 has 10 x 14 inch = 26 x 39 cm
Now this would be one of the deciding factors for me: It´s a competitive variable not even mentioned in any of the product descriptions of any iontophoresis device. I didn´t realize how great an advantage I would gain by simultaneous treatment of hands and feet before I read the Idromed 4 manual. Dr Hönle doesn´t even mention this feature on their web site ( a lot of members in this forum has commented that Dr Hönle doesn´t have very much info (in english) about the Idromed 4, but even in german they don´t describe simultaneous theraphy of hands and feet very well in either site or pdf sales material) With the Fischer MD 1 a, I would be forced to treat hands and feet separately, thereby doubling the total time I have to "waste" in therapy. My foot is app 25 cm long, and around 11 cm at the widest, which means I would barely be able to squeeze both feet into one Fischer tray in a rather uncomfortable way, while they fit amply in one Idromed 4 therapy bath. Ofcourse one could buy larger trays for the Fischer MD 1a and that probably wouldn´t be very expensive.
3) FOOT/TABLE switch: This is entirely Dr Hönle´s own idea. I haven´t seen any of the others with this feature, which is ingenious. You could modify the Fischer MD 1 a with a switch between the mains converter and the MD 1a, and achieve the same advantages: It allows for treatment of hands and feet completely solo, without anyone to assist you. With the Fischer MD 1 a you will get zapped if you lift one hand from one of the baths to turn the device off. With the Idromed 4 you simply cut the power with the foot/table switch. You still have remember to return the mA dial back to zero before the next therapy though, or you will get zapped anyway next time you hit the swith again
, so with both of these machines you need a helper to turn up the mAmps atleast for hands treatment alone (ie one hand i each bath) unless you have very articulate feet so you can turn the dial with your toes . With the Idromed 4 you can place both feet in one bath and e.g. your left hand in the other bath, thereby closing the circuit to avoid getting zapped, while you gradually turn the mAmps dial up with the right hand untill you reach your comfortable setting, and then place the right hand in the bath with the left hand. There is a slighty higher tension noticeable in both feet and left hand before you join the right hand, so I usually turn up the mAmps untill I feel a slight stinging, which is then relieved when the rght hand comes in.This simultaneous treatment allows for e.g. answering the phone, switching channels on your tv set, turning a page in your book, or enjoying a sip of your favourite brew during therapy. If you want to do that with the Fischer MD 1a in it´s factory setup, you need a helper.
What do I get with the Fischer MD 1a, which I don´t get with the Idromed 4 ?
1) a tuitional DVD, which I have to pay extra 50 USD for, and is only availble for physicians
2) Fischer actually mentions in their manual, that the conductivity of the minerals in the water is important, and suggests using baking soda so make the water "harder" if the therapy doesn´t seem effective.
What´s the price of Fischer MD 1a versus Idromed 4 a?
Fischer MD 1a ships to Denmark for Dkr 3.590,- USD 615,- incl. insurance and shipment, and I bought the Idromed 4 for Dkr 3.528,- USD 604,- including moms (VAT) insurance and shipment. (Does anybody see why I´m talking about cartel-like organization?)
HOWEVER, if the customs officers snap my parcel from the US, they will slam me with the danish moms (VAT) on top of the Fischer price, meaning I most likely will end up paying Dkr 4.569,- USD 782,77 INCL VAT for the Fischer unit. Actually customs may even add a slight import duty on the goods also. The european union does that, because the Bush administration has imposed import duties on european steel export to the US
SadLast edited by hyper_hydro on Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:07 am; edited 22 times in total
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jimmy
Joined: 05 May 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Good research, wish I had time to do the same. Glad its all in one post too
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Pinker
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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Location: Manchester - England
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: Reply with quote
For those of you looking for a quick fix I would definitely recommend you try glycoprronium solution. I had one treatment with this before I went on holiday and my hands and feet were perfectly dry for the week. The sweating came back the following week because obviously I had only given it one treatment and left it at that. It takes me 7 or 8 treatments with water to reach the same state. I can imagine perfect dryness if I used this solution say twice a week every week.
I'm gonna get hold of some smaller trays I can customise so I use less of the solution (they don't give you much). I think once you've used it as well you can pour it back into the bottle and re-use it a few times.
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A comprehensive list of Hyperhidrosis remedies: (Updated)
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Idrostar i2m + water and Glycopyrronium Bromide 0.05% maintenance treatments.
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hyper_hydro
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 695
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
thanks Pinker, how much do you get, and what does it cost? app. how much do you use in each treatment? can you scan/photograph the label/instructions for use and post it somewhere for me to see?
Very Happy
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jimmy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Also, in the UK do you need a prescription, or do you just need to ask for it?
Thanks Very Happy
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Pinker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I got a prescription from my doctor and just ordered it from a chemist (pharmacy) so there was no cost involved. The pharmacy had to order it though which takes about a week.
I'm not sure about the volume because it had no labels on it apart from the name. The bottle was probably about 20cm tall and 10cm wide if that helps Lol. There wasn't enough though so next time i'll ask for more, and make smaller trays as I said.
I'll try and get a photograph of a bottle next time I order it.
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A comprehensive list of Hyperhidrosis remedies: (Updated)
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Idrostar i2m + water and Glycopyrronium Bromide 0.05% maintenance treatments.
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hyper_hydro
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 695
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
No need for bottle pictures pinker Very Happy what I was interested in is the prescription information ie chemical formula and the instructions for use. When you buy prescription medicals in Denmark there has to be a label on them, describing the exact content and details of use for that particular treatment. If you shoot a digital photo or scan you can delete the detals about you or the doctor if you like. I´m also really interested in what it costs and how much is needed for iontoforesis. Do you know what metal your electrodes are made of? (the alloy) Thanks for your help Pinker Very Happy
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Pinker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
The machine has two hard, silver metal plates that are placed in each tray. I think it could be steal because its very rigid. I don't think it matters as long as the material conducts electricity. Its oxidised so it loses electrons which travel to the pores in the skin and "shock" the sweat glands which somehow stops them working.
The trays here are almost identical to mine
http://www.i2m-labs.com/images/mainsidrostar.jpg
It didn't cost me anything because health stuff is free here. Again I don't know the quantities but more is better of course. But I used half glycopirrolate and half water so it was quite diluted and got dry hands from that.
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A comprehensive list of Hyperhidrosis remedies: (Updated)
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Idrostar i2m + water and Glycopyrronium Bromide 0.05% maintenance treatments.
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hyper_hydro
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 695
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It didn't cost me anything because health stuff is free here
Ok Pinker, all medicin is free in the UK as long as it is prescribed? That´s great. It´s not all free I guess, since you had to pay atleast in part for your iontoforesis device.
It seems like you have steel electrodes like I do. You´re probably right that only the electrons are entering the body, and the aluminum electrodes are simply a bit more effective than steel (and cheaper to make, plus I´m guessing they also wear out faster), because aluminum is more willing to give up it´s electrons, but then how come they don´t use copper for the electrodes, if it´s only about conductivity? Oxidized copper is very toxic, so evidently someone IS worried that the metal can enter the skin somehow.
What exactly came in the box with your Idrostar? Can you possibly scan the manual and make it available for download for me somehow? Thanks a lot for all your helpful comments. Very Happy
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idripswet
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:12 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Pinker...is the glycoprronium solution a liquid? I live in the U.S., and I would like to try and use this with my iontophoresis machine. Do you have it compounded? Is it just water and glycoprronium? I may ask my doctor to compound it, but i guess I need to know what the actual components are. Thanks!
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok I guess I have to take that part about dirt cheap chinese manufacturers back. I asked Dr Höenle about the part in the manual which recommends a 2 year service check at their service facilities, and got a reply from Anke Niyaz at A.L.T. Lichttherapie, which states that the above mentioned recommendation in the manual only refers to clinics and dermatologists, and that for private customers, the recommendation need not be taken that literally. It´s referring to a rule in german health services, that all equipment of that type must be checked every 2 years. If I should decide to send it however, it would cost me somewehere in the vicinity of 70 Euro.
Markus Bindner tells me that A.L.T. is a production company owned and directed by the same people who own Dr Höenle.
Having the contact to Anke, I asked about the word "hergestellt" on back of the Idromed 4, as opposed to the words "made in Germany" on the FRIWO AC/AC converter, and she replied the following:
Good morning,
"Hergestellt" means manufactured/produced. All parts in the idromed 4 are made in Germany, even if we don't manufacture all assembly parts ourselves, but get them from German sub-suppliers.
I hope I could help you.
Kind regards,
Ms. Anke Niyaz
International Sales & Marketing
Dr. K. Hoenle Medizintechnik GmbH
If anyone at Dr Höenle or A.L.T. follows this forum, I would like to apologize for my allegation regarding chinese manufacturers, and I´m going to edit all parts of my posts containing that comment as soon as possible.
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poison
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: Reply with quote
hyper_hydro wrote:
Quote:
It didn't cost me anything because health stuff is free here
Ok Pinker, all medicin is free in the UK as long as it is prescribed? That´s great. It´s not all free I guess, since you had to pay atleast in part for your iontoforesis device.
I got a "loan" of the Drionic machine. They told me how to use it and I got to take it home. They said I could keep it for a month or 2 then if it worked I had the option to buy it for about £130.
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Pinker
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
idripswet wrote:
Pinker...is the glycoprronium solution a liquid? I live in the U.S., and I would like to try and use this with my iontophoresis machine. Do you have it compounded? Is it just water and glycoprronium? I may ask my doctor to compound it, but i guess I need to know what the actual components are. Thanks!
Yes it came as a white liquid diluted to a 0.05% concentration. I thought it would be in powder form and they didn't give me enough liquid really.
The solution is called glycopyrronium bromide 0.05%
I think it is commonly used here in British NHS hospitals so they should be aware of it in the US I think
http://www.addenbrookes.org.uk/consent/forms/cfpi_030_derm_ion.pdf
hyper_hydro wrote:
What exactly came in the box with your Idrostar? Can you possibly scan the manual and make it available for download for me somehow? Thanks a lot for all your helpful comments.
Here's a google image of the machine if it helps
http://www.i2m-labs.com/images/moyennes/Idrostar.jpg
Its very basic. Just the actual unit, 2 cables with chrocodile clips, 2 "stainless steel" electrodes, 2 plastic grilles which go on top of the plates, and the actual case which doubles up as the trays. Bit of a disgrace what they charge for these machines really.
I don't have access to a scanner but the manual doesn't say anything new basically. It makes clear not to go past 20mA though. The light goes red at 18mA as a precaution.
I had to pay for my machine because it was from a private company. The NHS is poor Laughing Though before I purchased the machine I used one at a hospital to see if it would work, and whether I needed to use the glycoprrolate if the water failed.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
hyper_hydro wrote:
Ok I guess I have to take that part about dirt cheap chinese manufacturers back. I asked Dr Höenle about the part in the manual which recommends a 2 year service check at their service facilities, and got a reply from Anke Niyaz at A.L.T. Lichttherapie, which states that the above mentioned recommendation in the manual only refers to clinics and dermatologists, and that for private customers, the recommendation need not be taken that literally. It´s referring to a rule in german health services, that all equipment of that type must be checked every 2 years, if it is used professionally. If I should decide to send it however, it would cost me somewehere in the vicinity of 70 Euro.
Markus Bindner tells me that A.L.T. is a production company owned and directed by the same people who own Dr Höenle.
Having the contact to Anke, I asked about the word "hergestellt" on back of the Idromed 4, as opposed to the words "made in Germany" on the FRIWO AC/AC converter, and she replied the following:
Good morning,
"Hergestellt" means manufactured/produced. All parts in the idromed 4 are made in Germany, even if we don't manufacture all assembly parts ourselves, but get them from German sub-suppliers.
I hope I could help you.
Kind regards,
Ms. Anke Niyaz
International Sales & Marketing
Dr. K. Hoenle Medizintechnik GmbH
If anyone at Dr Höenle or A.L.T. follows this forum, I would like to apologize for my allegation regarding chinese manufacturers, and I´m going to edit all parts of my posts containing that comment as soon as possible.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
It makes clear not to go past 20mA though. The light goes red at 18mA as a precaution.
Ok Pinker that´s interesting. The Idromed 4 manual says 15 mA is the limit for hands, 25 mA (full power) for feet. There´s no warning on the device itself though.
Sixers what does the Fischer/Drionis manual say about amperage limits?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Seems like Ed may be trying to sort out the problem with deletion and editing of the posts. I tried to edit my post about my apology for alleging chinese manufacture, and instead of editing the original post it made a new one, in which I´m quoting myself...and I don´t get the possibility of deleting the post as was possible earlier. This way you can always see what the original post was about which is smart I guess... Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:53 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks so muc, that was very helpful!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm planning on making a deep tray for my iontophoresis machine so I can treat my whole foot not just the soles of my feet. But i'm a bit confused about where to fix the metal tray.
I was wondering does the skin have to be almost touching the metal plate for iontophoresis to work, or is it ok as long as the skin is in contact with the water? The only way I can think of attaching the metal is to fix it on the side of the tray so I can attach the croc clips at the top avoiding getting the cable in the water. I figure it'd work because when i'm using the machine and I just place my free hand at the surface of the water I get a strong tingle.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi Pinker
For the ions to be able to reach the whole surface of the sole of your foot, I guess you have to shift position of your foot from time to time during the treatment, so you don´t have parts of the foot covered by the plastic mesh all the time. If you move the foot a little now and then, the distribution of ions should be quite effective. It has been for me anyway, and I let my feet rest on the mesh directly over the electrode for the duration, only shifting positions a few times. Did you see the new electrodes for the Idromed 4 in my last post about Idromed 4 electrodes? click the links to the images, and you can see they are much larger than the old ones, ie making the density of ions in the water greater. Maybe it would be an idea to order those for your Idrostar. The gold-plated cable pin however, is in the plate itself, on the bottom in the tray, and there´s a black rubber insulation app 2,5 cm wide up to the gold-plated tip for attaching the cable, meaning I can only fill up to that level, or maybe it´s necessary to make the pin longer. I don´t know if there´s any problem in the cable actually getting into the water, but I´ll be asking Anke or Markus about that, and get back to you.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
it doesnt matter if the cable is in (the water), it cant be (any) other (way), so the current goes ever the easiest way, it is (in) the electrode, never the water...
Pinker, the above is the answer I got from Markus, and it is correct in my opinion, regarding the fact that the current will prefer travelling in the metal cable/electrode combo rather than in the water. In any case I´ll try it in a few minutes so we´ll know for sure Wink
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:19 am Post subject: 1´st maintenance therapy. New aluminium electrodes
Reply with quoteTook my first maintenance treatment today, in order to try out my new aluminium electrodes, although I´m not even beginning to sweat from my hands and feet yet, in spite of this wonderful summer weather.
Started out by plucking some hairs (ouch) and storing them in an uncontaminated plastic bag, as Vicky suggested, so I have the record of life before ionto, and the short 11 day period with stainless steel electrodes.
Pinker, as you see: http://photos.imageevent.com/otto/pdfmanuals/_MG_8037_1.jpg
The cable leads directly into the water, and when my hands are dipped in the tray, the water level rises above the section where the cable meets the gold-plating of the cable-pin on the electrode. I recommend these plates for your deeper tray. You can make the tray as deep as you like. Remember to order a set of Idromed 4 cables (and perhaps the plastic mesh if you need that), you´ll just need to change the connector in the end which meets your Idrostar, because the plugs are probably not the same. The plates measure 17 x 31,5 cm and the mesh is 22 x 36 cm The cable is precisely long enough to comfortably reach a tray on the floor, having the other tray on the table in front of you, and the ionto-device and power switch on the table to the right.
Had a 30 minute simultaneous treatment hands/feet with plus pole at the feet, and 10 mA of amperage: The sensation of the current is exactly the same as with stainless steel. I used the same amount of water in the tray as I did with stainless steel: 2.25 litres
Sad Markus says COD "cash on delivery" is not possible in the UK, evidently the UK and German post services don´t work together, so I guess you´ll have to prepay them:
Quote:
cod is not possible in england, the retail price for the electrodes is 37 eur cables 23 mesh 6 eur
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I've got hold of 2 makeshift containers so all i've got to do is get hold of some stainless steel or just some steel to act as the electrodes. I just can't think of where i can get hold of some sheets of steel though lol.
On your pictures in the other thread I was surprised how much the steel on your machine had corroded (gone a brownish colour). I've had the idrostar for around 6 months now and the steel is still very shiny with just some faint brown speccles.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Pinker wrote:
I've got hold of 2 makeshift containers so all i've got to do is get hold of some stainless steel or just some steel to act as the electrodes. I just can't think of where i can get hold of some sheets of steel though lol.
On your pictures in the other thread I was surprised how much the steel on your machine had corroded (gone a brownish colour). I've had the idrostar for around 6 months now and the steel is still very shiny with just some faint brown speccles.
I know, I was surprised by that myself, and particularly since it was primarily the plus pole taking damage. The minus isn´t half as bad (and actually the corrosion on that could stem from the one or two times I accidentally swapped them, or once I actually did switch polarity. Normally people shift the polarities but I didn´t because my feet were sweating so bad, Markus recommended me not to shift polarity, but keep the plus at the feet, because plus is actually what does the job. You only shift polarity to get an even effect. In the first 10 treatments I actually tried to keep amperage at 15 mA all the time, because I though that the more amperage the better the effect might be.
I´d love to stick your feet in my Idromed 4 for 10 treatments and see if you could do without the glycopyrrolate using my gear Very Happy I´ve seen posts in other forums that would claim Fisher did the job better because of the mains outlet power as opposed to batteries, but presently I can´t prove that. What exactly is the battery source in the Idrostar? If I can get hold of the battery and figure out what combined value of resistance my body and the tray/water is in ohms, I´d like to see how long such a battery can drag that load at 15 mAmps.
I can see why it seems hard to accept that aluminum or iron/chromium ions from the plus pole is active with the feet, if your electrodes don´t decay, but for me it´s pretty obvious that metal is spent from the plus pole, so where does it go? Naturally onto the feet/hands Very Happy Some is also settling on the bottom of the tray. The plus pole tray has a faint red shadow of the electrode outline.
Did you ever try adding baking soda as the Fischer manual says? Maybe your water doesn´t have enough "minerals" = active negative ions to transport the metal ions off the electrodes?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I just can't think of where i can get hold of some sheets of steel though lol.
That´s why I thought it might be easier just to get these Very Happy If Dr Höenle thought the future is stainless steel, they probably wouldn´t have changed to aluminium recently, after using stainless steel for many years. Anyway, there´s probably a good reason for the insulation strip of rubber around the connecting pin reaching app. 2,5 cm up from the bottom of the plate....
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
It runs on 4 AA batteries. Pretty crap really I have to recharge them after every treatment.
So does your machine have aluminium or steel electrodes? What batteries does it run on?
I don't understand about what is the positive and negative polarity on my machine. It just has "1" and "2". No indication which cable is the positive.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok Pinker, the Idromed 4 runs on 240 volts mains power by an AC/AC converter plugged into a power point in my wall. Double A´s wear out quickly as you have noted yourself, so honestly I think that´s a weak side to the Idrostar. Especially if you want to carry out 30 minutes of therapy as I have been doing. I have just recently switched to new aluminium electrodes as you can see in the pictures I posted. Before that I used stainless steel which came with the device less than 14 days ago. Markus sent me a free set of the new electrodes. Apparently Dr Höenle made the change overnight without marking the kits which had the new electrodes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Also HH, are the trays that came with your machine deep enough to treat your whole foot? lol so many questions.
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hyper_hydro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
I don't understand about what is the positive and negative polarity on my machine. It just has "1" and "2". No indication which cable is the positive.
See this is why I really want the original manual Very Happy When you look at the images all ionto´s seem alike. It seems to me maybe I2M haven´t even realized that the positive pole is more effective, or maybe they don´t think you ought to know?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
questions are fine Pinker Very Happy the more the better. Please look at the images in the post above, you can see there´s plenty of room for both feet even with the new electrodes, but as you have pointed out, it might be a good idea to have slightly deeper trays to treat the sides of the feet more effectively.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Well I just reverse the polarity so i'm guessing both the hand and foot get the positive and negative current.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Why did they switch to aluminium electrodes? Do they hold an advantage?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
ok sorry Pinker, the photos are in this thread: http://www.esfbchannel.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1155&start=15
post called new electrodes...
Yes I think it´s because aluminium ions as a competitive inhibitor is more aggressive in competing for the negative ions in the skin than the combined ions in the stainless steel electrode. Ofcourse it could also be because aluminium electrodes are cheaper to manufacture, but in fact it seems the new design is a bit more complicated in respect of the rubber insulation on the connecting pin..If you read the electrode post you can see what the factory representative, Anke wrote to me about the change to aluminium.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Hopefully I should have a better chance of getting hold of some aluminium and thats great if it does the job better. Maybe i'll just cut up some used cans or something Smile j/k
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:47 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
One last question, what is the average amperage you use during treatments? I keep it around 13 to 15mA.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Actually, the danish Dermatol into-device made by Finni Syndergaard uses plain old aluminium baking trays for your oven, as combined electrode/therapy trays. His device is battery powered like yours. Who says it needs to be very fancy to work if the aluminium is pure? You can pick up the trays in most markets actually. It seem Finni was a bit ahead of anyone else on that point. My guess is you can probably make an Idrostar every bit as effective as Idromed 4 or Fischer, if you improve the power source.
Look at this: http://home0.inet.tele.dk/finnis/
I translated the text to english in one of my early posts in the "having
a hard time getting the facts" thread..(sheesh having a hard time figuring out which tread I´m writing in Embarassed )
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Pinker wrote:
One last question, what is the average amperage you use during treatments? I keep it around 13 to 15mA.
9-10 mAmps is my comfort zone. In the beginning I thought I had to go to just before I felt pain, which was 15 mAmps, but that´s not necessary at all. If you extend the treatment as I do to 30 minutes (and I don´t change the polarity, because my feet is the main problem, so I keep the plus pole at my feet tray) the effect will be just as good or even better.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Cool I was looking for a 240 volt option for the idrostar, but I´m beginning to find my own posts when I google Razz It looks like it´s something you have to make for yourself, but since someone made it for the Drionic ( see the big post I made about ionto´s in "Digging..." thread ), it couldn´t be a big problem to make (if you trust your own abilities as an electronics mechanic Razz ) I´ll keep looking to see if anyone made it (and if they didn´t I´d say the battery operation is probably good enough, you just need better batteries...double A´s unfortunately come in great variation)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Im sure I could do something but i'm not too keen on messing with something my dad spent a lot of money on for me Razz if it was mains fitted the components inside would probably need changing to take the huge current might they?
I can just rely on what i've got right now I guess. The glycopyrronium is a godsend the way it works so fast. I think it can be reused as well a few times.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Ok Pinker, but tell me how many mAH are your batteries rated at? You can get 2500 mAH now from e.g. Sanyo.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
It says 1.2V - 1700mAH
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
ok consider getting something better, actually non-rechargeables Duracell Ultra M3 rate atleast at 2800 mAH, but as I said you can also get Sanyo rechargeables at 2500 mAH. The rating alone doesn´t say everything about the batteries though.
found this link right now: http://www.nimhbattery.com/sanyo-2700-aa-rechargeable-batteries.htm
Sanyo is the top notch rechargeable AA.
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Pinker
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 117
Location: Manchester - England
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
I switched to using rechargeables because buying the duracel batteries every other week was just too expensive. I'll try and check out some others in time.
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A comprehensive list of Hyperhidrosis remedies: (Updated)
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Idrostar i2m + water and Glycopyrronium Bromide 0.05% maintenance treatments.
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Pinker
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
Posts: 117
Location: Manchester - England
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Will I need to buy a sanyo battery recharger do you think? I've got one that seems to recharge anything in 2 hours flat lol.
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A comprehensive list of Hyperhidrosis remedies: (Updated)
http://www.socialphobiaworld.com/postt6814.htm
Idrostar i2m + water and Glycopyrronium Bromide 0.05% maintenance treatments.
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hyper_hydro
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 695
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes but did you buy the right Duracells? Most people get the standard Duracells with the pink bunny TV ads, but they don´t cut it for demanding use. The only Duracell battery I would buy is the ULTRA M3 Still the rechargeables are obviously the best solution for the Idrostar.
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Frank Zappa wrote:
And now....you are going to dance...like you've never danced before!
Dance Contest, Tinsel Town Rebellion Band. (Frank Zappa, 2LP, Barking Pumpkin PW2 37336, May 11, 1981)
Last edited by hyper_hydro on Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:32 am; edited 2 times in total
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hyper_hydro
Joined: 02 May 2006
Posts: 695
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:11 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
Pinker wrote:
Will I need to buy a sanyo battery recharger do you think? I've got one that seems to recharge anything in 2 hours flat lol.
I think the charger you have will do just fine. Might take a bit longer because the new batteries have larger capacity. I have to say that some chargers are not up to what they promise, especially some that promise you express charging abilities with very high capacity batteries. I have quite a lot of experience with this, because I work with retail/wholesale trade of misc power dependent paraphernalia. The best charger I have come across is marketed by Olympus. Don´t take my words for it, read the reviews Very Happy
http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ
